RSA : 3 Points for being a danger to Cyclist but not Motorcyclist ?

Banzai600 · 22-11-2019 2:54pm #1

What a week.......:rolleyes:

Ive had a couple of v close near misses this week, with a driver skidding through red lights , and 40' atic truck illegally crossing two median strips on the motorway into my path , and a woman this morning with a phone in her hand that lost control coming to a roundabout trying stop in time when i was already on the roundabout.... and i wasnt speeding or acting like a d!ck. Its a daily occurrence now. ( im riding bike yrs, and know my craft, but there are some things way beyond your control ).

The below from the RSA has gone this far to bring in a law to protect cyclists, but why not us, we are as vulnerable , but yet again we are overlooked as road users in all aspects. RSA boil my p!ss bigtime with their rhetoric.

There is a worsening attitude of drivers that we will come off worse, hence almost pushing us off the road or being malicious on purpose, crossing in front of us last minute etc.

3 points & a fine for endangering a cyclist but nothing to protect motorcyclists in the law.

Or am i missing something ?

Changes to Penalty Points on 12 November 2019
From 12 November 2019, there is a new specific offence of dangerous overtaking of a cyclist, the fine will be €120 and 3 penalty points on payment of a fixed charge if paid within 28 days, €180 payment outside 28 days, €240 third payment option. If it goes to Court and there is a conviction 5 penalty points and a fine applies.
The introduction of the new law will be highlighted by the rollout of new signage warning motorists to provide for adequate overtaking space for cyclists. The signage includes providing for a one metre distance overtaking space (in locations with speed limits less than 50km/h) and 1.5 metre distance (where speed limit exceeds 50 km/h).

https://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Licensed-Drivers/Penalty-points/Types-of-offences/

aido43 · 22-11-2019 3:41pm

Had a week like yours as well--its a daily struggle not to get wiped out in Dublin traffic--nobody gives a f...k about lights,white lines, stop signs etc. You could be lit up like a Xmas tree and the SMIDSYS would still try kill you.
To be honest lots of problems are caused by cyclists who are all over road. Had one confront me last week to suggest I had no parents after he signalled and moved out into centre of road in one movement without looking back then felt upset I took his place on inside.Caught me at next lights and proceeded to ride in circles around me while ranting--I find laughing really gets them going.
The RSA is all politics--they feel they have to come up with new rules to justify the top heavy salaries they get---there are no Gardaí to police this anyway.

zubair · 23-11-2019 12:16am

aido43 wrote: »

Had a week like yours as well--its a daily struggle not to get wiped out in Dublin traffic--nobody gives a f...k about lights,white lines, stop signs etc. You could be lit up like a Xmas tree and the SMIDSYS would still try kill you.
To be honest lots of problems are caused by cyclists who are all over road. Had one confront me last week to suggest I had no parents after he signalled and moved out into centre of road in one movement without looking back then felt upset I took his place on inside.Caught me at next lights and proceeded to ride in circles around me while ranting--I find laughing really gets them going.
The RSA is all politics--they feel they have to come up with new rules to justify the top heavy salaries they get---there are no Gardaí to police this anyway.

Some cyclists are more danger to themselves than anyone is to them. Sure there's plenty of sensible cyclists. You'd think the RSA would do a campaign to get them to shoulder check, which most of them never do.

Otherwise there's loads of dopes on the road, including myself. I find most drivers to be fairly sensible and patient when it comes to bikers. Just look after yourselves and avoid conflict and incidents as best you can, they'll all be eating your dust in a few seconds, give them room to do their daft manouvers and then get going.

Hotblack Desiato · 23-11-2019 2:16pm

Well OP the difference is we have an engine, so if we get killed it's automatically our fault.

They don't have an engine so are never ever to blame for anything.

Happy to help

Max Headroom · 23-11-2019 2:29pm

Who's going to say whats close and whats not...?? how will it be proven...???
If say, youre coming up on a cyclist and theyre say, not even in the supplied cycle lane and theres a solid white line....do you overtake them...the answer will be no...because its not safe to do so....i'd encourage ALL drivers to adhere to the new rules and see how long it is before a blind eye is turned to these engine dodgers....:rolleyes:
This goes tenfold if theres a Plodwagon around....

Del2005 · 23-11-2019 2:47pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Well OP the difference is we have an engine, so if we get killed it's automatically our fault.

They don't have an engine so are never ever to blame for anything.

Happy to help

A lot of them do have an engine now and should have a licence, tax, insurance and a motorcycle helmet. But that's not being enforced.

This is like the 30 limits in urban areas, it sounds good but no one is going to get done. The people I feel sorry for are the fast cyclists because they can't overtake the slow ones in traffic now as there won't be enough space.

mamax · 23-11-2019 10:36pm

Max Headroom wrote: »

Who's going to say whats close and whats not...?? how will it be proven...???

A lot of cyclists use cameras now the same as we do, video evidence will be the key for a prosecution
I pass everyone on the road with the assumption that they have a camera rolling, if everyone did the same then .......

Max Headroom wrote: »

If say, youre coming up on a cyclist and theyre say, not even in the supplied cycle lane and theres a solid white line....do you overtake them...

No, we have to have a little patience and wait for the opportunity to pass safely, and cyclists do not have to use a cycle lane.

zubair · 24-11-2019 1:47pm

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2572483082878519&id=100003505579685

H_Lime · 24-11-2019 2:39pm

zubair wrote: »

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2572483082878519&id=100003505579685

Dude on the bikes gonna win a silly prize. Never smart expecting a car to do the right thing when you intentionally put yourself in harms way like that.

ratracer · 24-11-2019 3:10pm

zubair wrote: »

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2572483082878519&id=100003505579685

In fairness, anyone can post a video of someone in any mode of transport being a dick! Motorcyclists and cyclists should have very little conflict or dangerous overtaking as there is plenty of room for both even in a single lane if it done with courtesy and respect.

Also, while I’ve seen a huge cyclists lobby trying to have safety improvements and law changes, I’ve seen or heard of SFA from a motorcyclists lobby to have anything changed. That’s not a dig at anyone here, it’s just the way it’s panned out.

Breezin · 24-11-2019 6:07pm

ratracer wrote: »

Also, while I’ve seen a huge cyclists lobby trying to have safety improvements and law changes, I’ve seen or heard of SFA from a motorcyclists lobby to have anything changed. That’s not a dig at anyone here, it’s just the way it’s panned out.

This. Cyclists have worked hard and effectively to have their voice heard, and now are rightly being recognised as legitimate road users, against the noise of a pretty nasty car lobby.
Motorcyclists have done virtually nothing in spite of real no-brainers, such as using bus lanes, that should have been in the bag years ago.

zubair · 24-11-2019 7:27pm

ratracer wrote: »

In fairness, anyone can post a video of someone in any mode of transport being a dick! Motorcyclists and cyclists should have very little conflict or dangerous overtaking as there is plenty of room for both even in a single lane if it done with courtesy and respect.

Also, while I’ve seen a huge cyclists lobby trying to have safety improvements and law changes, I’ve seen or heard of SFA from a motorcyclists lobby to have anything changed. That’s not a dig at anyone here, it’s just the way it’s panned out.

Of course, to be honest the only reason I posted it is because it highlights the lack of a shoulder check and poor use of the lane. The driver was holding back, a biker would have overtaken straight away in that situation and probably would have been hit by the cyclist. The reaction afterwards wasn't really part of my point, he's a d1ck and there's plenty of them using all modes of transport.

I treat all cyclists with respect and have come to support them several times after I witnessed incidents with drivers. I'm surprised they're not all crashing into each other though as shoulder checks just don't seem to be a thing.

I'm not sure what people want the RSA to do to protect bikers to be honest. Bus lane usage would be a good idea but I'm also quite happy for the guards just to ignore the fact we do it.

Hotblack Desiato · 25-11-2019 1:40am

Breezin wrote: »

This. Cyclists have worked hard and effectively to have their voice heard, and now are rightly being recognised as legitimate road users, against the noise of a pretty nasty car lobby.
Motorcyclists have done virtually nothing in spite of real no-brainers, such as using bus lanes, that should have been in the bag years ago.

For my sins I was heavily involved with MAG Ireland for some years

Unfortunately they never got the backing from riders they should have. United we stand, divided we fall.

The individualistic streak of most riders and the rejection of biking by 'polite society' don't help here.

I've met with biking activists from all over the EU and the political position here and the anti-biking prejudice in society and the media here is the worst of any country.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QereR0CViMY

Hotblack Desiato · 25-11-2019 1:44am

Believe it or not but the politicians' objection wasn't to bikes in bus lanes. It was "well if we let them in, then some other bunch will want it and we can't have that"

The Gardai at least take a pragmatic approach. They know we're safer there and we don't endanger anyone else.

~20 years ago I got a very theatrical telling off from a bike guard in the Stillorgan bus lane, he was giving it loads making it look like he was throwing the book at me, this was all theatre for the onlooking cagers

Victor · 25-11-2019 2:14am

Actually, motorcyclists and other road users are covered - part (b) here.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2019/si/495/made/en/print

“(1) (a) A driver shall not overtake or attempt to overtake if to do so would endanger or cause inconvenience to a pedal cyclist.

(b) A driver shall not overtake or attempt to overtake if to do so would endanger or cause inconvenience to a person other than a pedal cyclist.”.

Breezin · 25-11-2019 11:27am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

For my sins I was heavily involved with MAG Ireland for some years

Unfortunately they never got the backing from riders they should have. United we stand, divided we fall.

The individualistic streak of most riders and the rejection of biking by 'polite society' don't help here.

I've met with biking activists from all over the EU and the political position here and the anti-biking prejudice in society and the media here is the worst of any country.

Fair dues to you. I went to a couple of MAG meetings in the long distant past, and I always wondered at the patience of those trying to get a coherent campaign going. It looked like trying to herd cats.

As with cycling, anything that goes against 'mainstream' or 'normal' car culture, which the RSA appears to take as its starting point, is going against the tide. As for media, just look at the flood of advertising for cars on RTÉ and in our newspapers, and the constant presence of the AA in the former. (AA Roadwash trolls this nicely).

I'm not happy that the bus lane policy is nod and wink. That can change at any time, if Mr Ross or whoever has a brain fart, and in the meantime depends on the mood and attitude of the individual garda. 99% of them are sound, but it's always a risk, and riding in this grey zone puts motorcyclists at a disadvantage when it comes to liability in the case of an accident.

Banzai600 · 25-11-2019 2:56pm

my thread is nout to do with cyclists

i am saying its to do with the fact we are as vulnerable, but yet often overlooked.

and as Hotblack Desiato says, this country has to be the worst and most anti-motorcycle, based on other countries.

Del2005 · 25-11-2019 9:52pm

Banzai600 wrote: »

my thread is nout to do with cyclists

i am saying its to do with the fact we are as vulnerable, but yet often overlooked.

and as Hotblack Desiato says, this country has to be the worst and most anti-motorcycle, based on other countries.

It's far from the worse. Plenty of countries don't allow filtering or bus lane usage and their police actually enforce their laws. Look at the size of plates on Irish bikes compared to across the sea.

galwaytt · 26-11-2019 11:36pm

Banzai600 wrote: »

my thread is nout to do with cyclists

i am saying its to do with the fact we are as vulnerable, but yet often overlooked.

and as Hotblack Desiato says, this country has to be the worst and most anti-motorcycle, based on other countries.

can't say I agree. Today bikers aren't refused service or access anywhere. Unlike say, the treatment meted out in XXXXX in the 90's.

Germany, Austria, USA, don't allow filtering. ..or 'creative' parking. Or DIY mods to your bike. Or noise.......

nope, we've got it OK here IMHO.

macplaxton · 27-11-2019 6:26am

Don't even have periodic testing of motorcycles (yet)

Max Headroom · 27-11-2019 10:02am

macplaxton wrote: »

Don't even have periodic testing of motorcycles (yet)

Fortunately we have such a small population of bikes it wouldnt make economic sense ...and sure we'd always have a "mate" who works in a test centre anyways.....;):P

D3V!L · 27-11-2019 10:03am

macplaxton wrote: »

Don't even have periodic testing of motorcycles (yet)

Thats awful

H_Lime · 27-11-2019 10:05am

Wonder what % of Irish bikes on the road would fail a British Mot?

is_that_so · 27-11-2019 10:30am

While I feel sympathy for the OP, there is much to be said for anticipation and vigilance and expecting the absolute worst in people especially in cars. That said I believe there is penalty in there already, for that of dangerous driving.

Hotblack Desiato · 27-11-2019 11:06am

Del2005 wrote: »

It's far from the worse. Plenty of countries don't allow filtering or bus lane usage and their police actually enforce their laws. Look at the size of plates on Irish bikes compared to across the sea.

In terms of public attitude, media attitude and legislator attitude it's the worst in the EU imho

Couldn't give a fook about number plates tbh

UK MOT is completely corrupt so no point copying that.

gooch2k9 · 27-11-2019 11:46am

macplaxton wrote: »

Don't even have periodic testing of motorcycles (yet)

If I'm not mistaken only the UK has periodic testing within the EU. It had been proposed but studies showed the technical condition of bikes involved in accidents was a lesser contributor than in car accidents. Conclusion was it would be a waste of time and money.

Has that changed?

Hotblack Desiato · 27-11-2019 2:55pm

Germans have the extremely anal TUV test. Not allowed patch (even internally) a tyre, or fit tyres not OEM approved. Nuts.

Motorcycle casualties caused by mechanical issues are tiny. Road condition/surfaces would be a much bigger issue, but fixing that would involve them spending money not you.

macplaxton · 27-11-2019 3:25pm

gooch2k9 wrote: »

If I'm not mistaken only the UK has periodic testing within the EU.

Wrong. It's about half of EU member states and the idea was to harmonise this to all, there is only a small escape hatch to that directive.

EU Directive 2014/45/EU

1. This Directive shall apply to vehicles with a design speed exceeding 25 km/h of the following categories, as referred to in Directive 2002/24/EC, Directive 2003/37/EC and Directive 2007/46/EC:
[snip]
from 1 January 2022, two- or three-wheel vehicles – vehicle categories L3e, L4e, L5e and L7e, with an engine displacement of more than 125 cm3;
[snip]
2. Member States may exclude the following vehicles registered in their territory from the scope of application of this Directive:
[snip]
vehicles in categories L3e, L4e, L5e and L7e, with an engine displacement of more than 125 cm3, where the Member State has put in place effective alternative road safety measures for two- or three-wheel vehicles, taking into account in particular relevant road safety statistics covering the last five years. Member States shall notify such exemptions to the Commission.

Here's an old list (2012) of member states testing motorcycles.
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/MEMO_12_555 at the time 16/27 states had tests.

CJhaughey · 27-11-2019 3:26pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Germans have the extremely anal TUV test. Not allowed patch (even internally) a tyre, or fit tyres not OEM approved. Nuts.

Motorcycle casualties caused by mechanical issues are tiny. Road condition/surfaces would be a much bigger issue, but fixing that would involve them spending money not you.

IIRC it was something like less than 4% of all motorcycle accidents that were attributed to mechanical faults.
Yeah the roads are a problem, but the bill that would have made the councils responsible was never signed into law in the 60's.
I wonder why?:rolleyes:

CJhaughey · 27-11-2019 3:31pm

macplaxton wrote: »

Wrong. It's about half of EU member states and the idea was to harmonise this to all, there is only a small escape hatch to that directive.

EU Directive 2014/45/EU

Here's an old list (2012) of member states testing motorcycles.
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/MEMO_12_555 at the time 16/27 states had tests.

Good luck trying to set up a testing programme that will be in any way cost effective here.
The tiny amount of bikes and riders make it improbable that it can be done through the NCT company and they would be very reluctant to spend money on machinery that will likely never pay for itself.

The piece in the directive that says " taking into account in particular relevant road safety statistics covering the last five years."is an obvious get out clause, how many bikes were in accidents due to mechanical faults in the last 5 years? Not a whole pile I'd have to think.

macplaxton · 27-11-2019 3:36pm

There were some stats somewhere that said a lot of the small number were due to DUI or something. I can't be bothered to look it up at the minute.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 27-11-2019 3:39pm

What's with the "us Vs them" attitude? It's so childish and counterproductive. Campaign for more rules if that's what you want, but you should really be campaigning for more Garda presence on the roads. Rules are useless if nobody is there to enforce them.

Del2005 · 27-11-2019 4:11pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

In terms of public attitude, media attitude and legislator attitude it's the worst in the EU imho

Couldn't give a fook about number plates tbh

UK MOT is completely corrupt so no point copying that.

The people who count, the Gardai, are aware of bikes and that's all that counts. We are good at enacting laws for this or that, it's the enforcement of them that's lacking and the Gardai enforcement of laws around bikes is done on a pragmatic basis to our benefit. How many people do you actually think will be done for dangerous overtaking, exceeding 30 limits etc?

zubair · 27-11-2019 9:55pm

Del2005 wrote: »

the Gardai enforcement of laws around bikes is done on a pragmatic basis to our benefit.

Indeed, let's not be so hasty, quite happy with how it works for motorbikes right now.

John_Rambo · 28-11-2019 12:08am

Del2005 wrote: »

The people who count, the Gardai, are aware of bikes and that's all that counts. We are good at enacting laws for this or that, it's the enforcement of them that's lacking and the Gardai enforcement of laws around bikes is done on a pragmatic basis to our benefit. How many people do you actually think will be done for dangerous overtaking, exceeding 30 limits etc?

Agreed, not a biker, but most I see are enthusiasts and (unlike other road users) take pride with their fairly skilled riding and bike care. Also, from my uneducated view, the motorbikes I see look very well maintained, clean with good tyres, they rarely break down and are rarely the cause of accidents.

galwaytt · 28-11-2019 12:49am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Germans have the extremely anal TUV test. Not allowed patch (even internally) a tyre, or fit tyres not OEM approved. Nuts..

Not allowed change sparkplugs from that OE fitted, either. I've bought enough German bikes and reading the KFZschein (tax book to you & I) and you see that level of detail, including make, model & size of tyres too on it and you think .... TF we don't have that....

galwaytt · 28-11-2019 1:16am

CJhaughey wrote: »

...Yeah the roads are a problem, but the bill that would have made the councils responsible was never signed into law in the 60's.
I wonder why?:rolleyes:

...but LA's and the NRA a crafty bunch when it comes to dodging spending money on roads.

One example, when the M6 Motorway (Dublin-Galway) opened the last section in 2009, the old N6 near my house magically.....disappeared....

Now, the law is, because motorways are tolled, that you must be allowed a toll-free alternative. So, the old N6 is the alternative to the M6. But all the N6 signs disappeared and were replaced by the R446 signs........(this is what you need to look for from Athlone to Galway for instance.....just in case you thought were losing your mind looking for an N6 sign....).
The question is 'why?'...and the answer is....funds. The NRA reclassified the road from N to R so that.......they didn't have to maintain it anymore, and by according it an R, made it the responsibility of the local council. Which means.....it'll never see anything other than cursory emergency repairs. It has literally become a 2nd Class Road or less even...

Another example then:...moving that along, I live along the R347, and this road has for years deteriorated and it's brutal. It got so bad that on occasion I would stop the bike on the way home, grab the nearest council cone, and drop that into the potholes in the carriageway. These were wheel breakers. Multiple complaints etc had no effect. And here's when I found out the Council operated what \I call 'The Pinto' Principle (reference: see HERE.)

..by this I mean, Galway County Council actually have a form for reclaiming damage to your vehicle from them, for damage caused by the road. And they have a person managing it. It is only when those claims reach above a threshold that the road will get attention, and even at that, a 'cats lick'. In case you think I'm making this up, I have had....5?....successful payments from them.....and many others do too.

In that context, an NCT for bikes is a waste of time.

Victor · 28-11-2019 1:53am

galwaytt wrote: »

Now, the law is, because motorways are tolled, that you must be allowed a toll-free alternative.

Without wanting to get off-topic, there is no obligation to have a non-tolled route. and very little of the motorway network is tolled.

Hotblack Desiato · 28-11-2019 3:19am

There has to be a non-motorway route though, as some drivers and vehicles aren't allowed on motorways. But in the context of the post you're replying to, it's about not providing a decent alternative to the tolled road / allowing what was a decent alternative to fall into ruin.

Signage if you're trying to avoid the M4 toll is shocking, you really have to plan that route in advance. Including a fictional place called "INNFIELD" that only exists on a prominent sign where if you get it wrong (looking for Enfield) you hit the toll.

Signs on roundabouts that say "M4" instead of "M4 TOLL" leading you to think you're past the toll plaza when you're not.

Disgraceful carry on.

galwaytt · 28-11-2019 6:12pm

Victor wrote: »

Without wanting to get off-topic, there is no obligation to have a non-tolled route. and very little of the motorway network is tolled.

There is actually, as the tolled motorways here are PPP roads, not publicly owned ones.

I don't know where you live, but M6/M4/M50/M1 all tolled, so a spin Galway-Dundalk & back in the car costs the bones of €25 in tolls....

Victor · 28-11-2019 9:33pm

galwaytt wrote: »

as the tolled motorways here are PPP roads

West Link, Port Tunnel and East Link (not a motorway) aren't PPPs.

I don't know where you live, but M6/M4/M50/M1 all tolled, so a spin Galway-Dundalk & back in the car costs the bones of €25 in tolls....

In some countries you woul be paying a lot more.

Galway > Dundalk 286 km toll €9.80 https://www.viamichelin.com/web/Routes?departure=Galway%2C%20Ireland&departureId=31NDFyMXYxMGNOVE11TWpjek9UWT1jTFRrdU1EVXhNalE9&step-1=Lucan%2C%20Ireland&arrival=Dundalk%20A91%2C%20Ireland&arrivalId=31NDFxdXoxMGNOVE11T1RrNU5URT1jTFRZdU5EQXpNemc9&index=0&vehicle=0&type=0&distance=km&currency=EUR&highway=false&toll=false&vignette=false&orc=false&crossing=true&caravan=false&shouldUseTraffic=false&withBreaks=false&break_frequency=7200&coffee_duration=1200&lunch_duration=3600&diner_duration=3600&night_duration=32400&car=hatchback&fuel=petrol&fuelCost=1.477&allowance=0&corridor=&departureDate=&arrivalDate=&fuelConsumption=
Paris > Châtellerault 293 km toll €30.50 https://www.viamichelin.com/web/Routes?departure=75000%20Paris%2C%20France&departureId=31NDJ2dDMxMGNORGd1T0RVMk9EST1jTWk0ek5URXhNUT09&arrival=86100%20Ch%C3%A2tellerault%2C%20France&index=0&vehicle=0&type=0&distance=km&currency=EUR&highway=false&toll=false&vignette=false&orc=false&crossing=true&caravan=false&shouldUseTraffic=false&withBreaks=false&break_frequency=7200&coffee_duration=1200&lunch_duration=3600&diner_duration=3600&night_duration=32400&car=hatchback&fuel=petrol&fuelCost=1.477&allowance=0&corridor=&departureDate=&arrivalDate=&fuelConsumption=

Toll roads are hardly all-pervasive.

RSA : 3 Points for being a danger to Cyclist but not Motorcyclist ?

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