The Middle Distance Thread

pconn062 · 16-04-2014 2:52pm

Hmmm, now you have me thinking about the 3k! I was initially going for the 800m to shock the body a bit but I will be in much better 3k shape by then than 800m. I won't be in either the B or A grade though! Maybe C, would love to run 9.55 but don't think I'll be in that shape by then.

Chivito550 · 16-04-2014 10:37pm

I get back to Ireland 8 days before the first graded meet. Training has been non existent due to being cautious over an Achilles/ heal issue and due to intense backpacking which has my feet feeling the burn (thanks European cobblestones!!). Hopefully I can start training the day after I get back and ease back into it. First meet is very soon but as I love racing I reckon I may give it a go to see where I am at. 100m and an 800m. Not experienced with how the graded meets work, AAI registration, etc etc. Have only ever run one, as a guest, so should be fun, albeit daunting. I fear the break since the Australian season will have done damage to the peak fitness levels I had in late February.

RayCun · 18-04-2014 1:06pm

.

The website for online entry is now live at www.dublinathletics.com
All athletes must enter on line - this is to enable the generation of start sheets from on line entries.
Online entries close at 1pm on the day of competition.

However payment can be deferred until the night. A series payment of €50 can be made on the first night.

ecoli · 18-04-2014 1:58pm

RayCun wrote: »

.

.

The website for online entry is now live at www.dublinathletics.com
All athletes must enter on line - this is to enable the generation of start sheets from on line entries.
Online entries close at 1pm on the day of competition.

However payment can be deferred until the night. A series payment of €50 can be made on the first night.

A huge step forward. Gonna miss the days of holding off putting my name down for a grade until the last min to see who is running what field though :P

pconn062 · 18-04-2014 2:57pm

ecoli wrote: »

.

A huge step forward. Gonna miss the days of holding off putting my name down for a grade until the last min to see who is running what field though :P

Was just thinking the same thing: "wait... he's running in the B grade?! Feck that I'm going in the C race!".

ecoli · 18-04-2014 3:08pm

pconn062 wrote: »

Was just thinking the same thing: "wait... he's running in the B grade?! Feck that I'm going in the C race!".

Remember making the opposite mistake before aswell thinking "right I am not in great shape so ill just go C, wait what is that fecker doing in B he is in worse shape than me

"

Sacksian · 18-04-2014 4:37pm

Re: switching grades. I registered online for a couple last year but was still able to switch grades on the night.

Can't get my head around how registering for the series online works? I won't know what races I'm doing a couple of days before each meet so when do I do that?

RayCun · 18-04-2014 5:10pm

Sacksian wrote: »

I won't know what races I'm doing a couple of days before each meet so when do I do that?

my read of the mail is that online entry closes at lunchtime on the day of the meet, so you can enter the morning of the race

Sacksian · 24-04-2014 3:03pm

After reading about the various fast sessions you guys are doing, I'm starting to think now that I'd really like to do the 800 on Wednesday. Is there anything better than running as fast as you can for 2 and a bit minutes??!

Decisions...decisions...the 3000 could be a real test but would love to know how far off 800 shape I am and the 800 is probably better prep for the mile at the end of May.

Have done a few 1500/mile sessions but nothing faster yet. Might leave it until the last minute to decide but, if I do, I'm robbing that 8 x 100m pace session someone mentioned!

ecoli · 24-04-2014 3:09pm

What ever happened to this forum being dominated by long distance runners?

I remember back in the good old days 8x100 was something you did after your session

Looks like it could be pretty lonely in the 3k, still about a month from having that sort off speed in the legs.

Got the official start of track season "how you fixed for the leagues?" beckoning from the club so I better get cracking on hurdle work soon.

Timmaay · 24-04-2014 3:37pm

ecoli wrote: »

Got the official start of track season "how you fixed for the leagues?" beckoning from the club so I better get cracking on hurdle work soon.

Have well and truly lost the steeple spot on my league team ha, I just got to hope I can wrestle an 8 or 15 spot off one of the others!

And graded next week, ok going to do 800 and not 3k, as 15 really is the focus this summer, and follow the 5k lastnight I'm happy that my endurance isn't a huge issue.

ecoli · 24-04-2014 3:48pm

Timmaay wrote: »

Have well and truly lost the steeple spot on my league team ha, I just got to hope I can wrestle an 8 or 15 spot off one of the others!

And graded next week, ok going to do 800 and not 3k, as 15 really is the focus this summer, and follow the 5k lastnight I'm happy that my endurance isn't a huge issue.

Feck it if your not making the team gonna have my work really cut out as I thought being in decent shape this year I may actually be able to pip you

Timmaay · 24-04-2014 4:08pm

In that case I'll guest in it just to kick your ass!

pconn062 · 24-04-2014 11:13pm

First time back in the spikes last night in a few months and the calves are killing me today. Really bad, like, struggling to walk down the stairs bad! Hammies and everything are tender, this 800m next week will be a real shock to the system!

Timmaay · 25-04-2014 12:48pm

pconn062 wrote: »

First time back in the spikes last night in a few months and the calves are killing me today. Really bad, like, struggling to walk down the stairs bad! Hammies and everything are tender, this 800m next week will be a real shock to the system!

What session? I usually fine the actual session does the damage more than wearing spikes for the 1st time, ie did you do something at 800pace and your body just isn't use of it? In any case I've kept up afew 8 sessions in spikes over the last 2months since the indoors, only like one every 2/3wks. Nothing can prepare ya for the 1st 8 of the season however ha, its usually my lungs that are the worst, can always taste blood after it ha!

RuinedEye · 25-04-2014 1:40pm

pconn062 wrote: »

First time back in the spikes last night in a few months and the calves are killing me today. Really bad, like, struggling to walk down the stairs bad! Hammies and everything are tender, this 800m next week will be a real shock to the system!

I had my first spikes session last night also (15x200m) but my calves probably feel better than before the session (Very surprised, maybe a delayed reaction and they might kick in tomorrow), A good roller session and a spell in some cold water afterwards does well.

Sacksian · 25-04-2014 2:32pm

Timmaay wrote: »

Nothing can prepare ya for the 1st 8 of the season however ha, its usually my lungs that are the worst, can always taste blood after it ha!

Jesus...I must be doing it wrong! Might just stick with the 3k so!!

ecoli · 25-04-2014 2:54pm

Timmaay wrote: »

its usually my lungs that are the worst, can always taste blood after it ha!

Sacksian wrote: »

Jesus...I must be doing it wrong! Might just stick with the 3k so!!

Don't worry S I don't reckon its as bad as you think. I always thought it was me getting spiked when racing Timmaay but now I know the truth

I remember last year however doing my one and only 800m (very unfit last year) finished and spent the next hour wretching with that metallic/blood taste present. Nothing like a hard 800.

pconn062 · 25-04-2014 3:14pm

Timmaay wrote: »

What session? I usually fine the actual session does the damage more than wearing spikes for the 1st time, ie did you do something at 800pace and your body just isn't use of it? In any case I've kept up afew 8 sessions in spikes over the last 2months since the indoors, only like one every 2/3wks. Nothing can prepare ya for the 1st 8 of the season however ha, its usually my lungs that are the worst, can always taste blood after it ha!

Yeah first 800m session of the year, apart from a few strides. 600m time trial (1.36), then 2x(4x200m), 33 second average. Only wore the spikes for the 600m then flats for the rest of it. Think it was more the session as well rather than the spikes. Still in bits today and the hammies are killing me too. Hopefully they feel better than this before next Wednesday! Lungs were on fire after the 600m!

KielyUnusual · 27-04-2014 10:58pm

So who's doing what on the Wednesday and how are we set?

I'm down for the 3k. I stupidly registered for the 'B' race last week but now think I would be better off at the back of the 'A'. Hopefully there's not too much hassle to change on the night.

Timmaay · 27-04-2014 11:23pm

KielyUnusual wrote: »

So who's doing what on the Wednesday and how are we set?

I'm down for the 3k. I stupidly registered for the 'B' race last week but now think I would be better off at the back of the 'A'. Hopefully there's not too much hassle to change on the night.

Before there was never any hassle switching grades on the night, but with the new online reg and entries closing the morning, I'd drop them a quick email and explain it to them, its less hassle for them also 2bh, esp as its the very 1st night they are using full online reg and they will probably be busy ironing out any small problems etc.

pconn062 · 27-04-2014 11:32pm

I'm down for the 800m, went into the C grade to suss out the standard on the first night. My PB is from a few years ago and is really shoddy so I left that section blank in case they look at it and bump me down to the D grade! :pac:

KielyUnusual · 27-04-2014 11:37pm

Timmaay wrote: »

Before there was never any hassle switching grades on the night, but with the new online reg and entries closing the morning, I'd drop them a quick email and explain it to them, its less hassle for them also 2bh, esp as its the very 1st night they are using full online reg and they will probably be busy ironing out any small problems etc.

I was thinking along the same lines. Might just drop them an e-mail in the morning and see what they think. I'm still not 100% decided. Looking at the 'A' grade last year has the last finisher coming in at 9.11, which would be about the best I'd be hoping for. Winner of the 'B' grade was 9.16. Basically, I think I'm somewhere in the middle of the two. Might see what ecoli and Sacksian are doing if they're both lining up and we could get a good old race going.

KielyUnusual · 27-04-2014 11:40pm

pconn062 wrote: »

I'm down for the 800m, went into the C grade to suss out the standard on the first night. My PB is from a few years ago and is really shoddy so I left that section blank in case they look at it and bump me down to the D grade! :pac:

Looking at the results from last year, I think you'd be perfect in this race. Looks to be a bulk of runners around the 2.10 mark, so you'd have plenty to pace off.

Chivito550 · 27-04-2014 11:51pm

KielyUnusual wrote: »

So who's doing what on the Wednesday and how are we set?

I'm down for the 3k. I stupidly registered for the 'B' race last week but now think I would be better off at the back of the 'A'. Hopefully there's not too much hassle to change on the night.

I'm out of Wednesday as it is too early for me to start racing as I've only got back training after a break. I would have liked to have run the 100 and 800, and I probably won't get an 800m in now as it clashes with the 400m for the rest of the graded series. It feels a bit weird saying that, as in Melbourne I had the opportunity to run over half a dozen 800m races on top of all my 400s. Looks like I'll have to get used to less racing which doesn't fit well with my style. These meets should be fun though.

Timmaay · 28-04-2014 12:13am

pconn062 wrote: »

I'm down for the 800m, went into the C grade to suss out the standard on the first night. My PB is from a few years ago and is really shoddy so I left that section blank in case they look at it and bump me down to the D grade! :pac:

Down for the b grade myself, can anyone remember what they are usually won in? I'll be aiming for a decent 1st lap, 58ish.

KielyUnusual · 28-04-2014 12:16am

Timmaay wrote: »

Down for the b grade myself, can anyone remember what they are usually won in? I'll be aiming for a decent 1st lap, 58ish.

I just had a look at the corresponding meeting last year. They don't divide up the grades but they give the positions and you can sort of work out which grade is which

Graded Meet 1 2013

ecoli · 28-04-2014 9:07am

KielyUnusual wrote: »

I just had a look at the corresponding meeting last year. They don't divide up the grades but they give the positions and you can sort of work out which grade is which

Graded Meet 1 2013

Was looking at this myself. Seem to be caught in limbo with a target of 9.15

. Probably will opt for B given that I haven't raced anything less than 10k since January so not sure how the body will react

KielyUnusual · 28-04-2014 9:24am

ecoli wrote: »

Was looking at this myself. Seem to be caught in limbo with a target of 9.15 . Probably will opt for B given that I haven't raced anything less than 10k since January so not sure how the body will react

Might just stick with the B myself since I've already registered for it. My thinking it that it won't make too much of a difference either way and there should be people to work with for the first mile or so in both cases. Last year's results are the only real indicator you have but anybody could show up on any given night, such is the nature of the Graded Meets.

Sacksian · 28-04-2014 9:48am

I wouldn't worry about being registered for the B - the email I have says that I'm registered for the 5k! Will have to send an email myself.

I'm almost 100% running the 3k A.

The danger of running in the B is that there's not enough bodies at the front or it becomes a tactical race and you don't get a decent time, in which case it's a bit of a waste of time.

The only danger of running in the A is that I finish (hopefully!) 20 seconds behind everyone else. I'll try to pick a few heads and pace off them as long as I can, so it's a one- or two-lap death march at worst.

ecoli · 28-04-2014 9:53am

Sacksian wrote: »

I wouldn't worry about being registered for the B - the email I have says that I'm registered for the 5k! Will have to send an email myself.

I'm almost 100% running the 3k A.

The danger of running in the B is that there's not enough bodies at the front or it becomes a tactical race and you don't get a decent time, in which case it's a bit of a waste of time.

The only danger of running in the A is that I finish (hopefully!) 20 seconds behind everyone else. I'll try to pick a few heads and pace off them as long as I can, so it's a one- or two-lap death march at worst.

I think its a good point regarding A and B. Happened me about 2 years back when I decided to make the (premature) leap to A. Basically worked too hard for first mile to stay with a pack and died a death which cost me a PB. However that was aiming for a sub 9.35 so I would say you shouldn't have the same issue.

Chivito550 · 28-04-2014 10:31am

All this talk about Grades A, B, C etc, now that there is online entry, would it not be far more logical to simply grade the races based on entry times, after all entries have been submitted. So if there are, for example, 30 entries for the men's 400m, then the top 8 entry times go into Race A, the next 8 into Race B, the following 7 into Race C, and the final 7 into Race D. It keeps the races even, avoids the hassle of people wanting to change grade, and is ridiculously easy to do.

Sacksian · 28-04-2014 10:43am

There can be several races at each grade. It's not actually a problem - it lets the athletes decide what grade they want to run in as they probably have the best idea of knowing what shape they're in.

And it seems to work - I've never seen a 2:10 runner in a Grade A 800!

For the 3k, I'm on the cusp of either Grade A or B, depending on my actual fitness. Given that there are very few 3k races, I'd be pretty pissed off if I felt in really good shape and was forced to run in the B grade, based on an out-of-date PB.

In my experience, the current set-up works perfectly well - the main variable is your own estimate of *current* fitness, which would not be solved by relying on PBs (especially for infrequently-run races).

Timmaay · 28-04-2014 10:48am

Sacksian wrote: »

There can be several races at each grade. It's not actually a problem - it lets the athletes decide what grade they want to run in as they probably have the best idea of knowing what shape they're in.

And it seems to work - I've never seen a 2:10 runner in a Grade A 800!

For the 3k, I'm on the cusp of either Grade A or B, depending on my actual fitness. Given that there are very few 3k races, I'd be pretty pissed off if I felt in really good shape and was forced to run in the B grade, based on an out-of-date PB.

In my experience, the current set-up works perfectly well - the main variable is your own estimate of *current* fitness, which would not be solved by relying on PBs (especially for infrequently-run races).

Agreed, the only change to online reg I'd make is to putup the expected standards of each grade, this info was on the paper entry forms before however hasn't yet being put online.

ecoli · 28-04-2014 10:53am

Sacksian wrote: »

There can be several races at each grade. It's not actually a problem - it lets the athletes decide what grade they want to run in as they probably have the best idea of knowing what shape they're in.

And it seems to work - I've never seen a 2:10 runner in a Grade A 800!

For the 3k, I'm on the cusp of either Grade A or B, depending on my actual fitness. Given that there are very few 3k races, I'd be pretty pissed off if I felt in really good shape and was forced to run in the B grade, based on an out-of-date PB.

In my experience, the current set-up works perfectly well - the main variable is your own estimate of *current* fitness, which would not be solved by relying on PBs (especially for infrequently-run races).

Agree with this. I can see them moving to the seeding system in time but I think best to do things one at a time and first see how the online registration goes first.

Sacksian wrote: »

And it seems to work - I've never seen a 2:10 runner in a Grade A 800!

True though I have seen people opt for a "confidence booster" :rolleyes:. Few years back I recall a guy running in grade D of the 1500m dropping a sub 60 last lap to blow the field out of the water despite having no business being in the race

Chivito550 · 28-04-2014 11:10am

Sacksian wrote: »

There can be several races at each grade. It's not actually a problem - it lets the athletes decide what grade they want to run in as they probably have the best idea of knowing what shape they're in.

And it seems to work - I've never seen a 2:10 runner in a Grade A 800!

For the 3k, I'm on the cusp of either Grade A or B, depending on my actual fitness. Given that there are very few 3k races, I'd be pretty pissed off if I felt in really good shape and was forced to run in the B grade, based on an out-of-date PB.

In my experience, the current set-up works perfectly well - the main variable is your own estimate of *current* fitness, which would not be solved by relying on PBs (especially for infrequently-run races).

Sorry, maybe PBs is the wrong word to use. Entry time would be a better description. If you're PB is 2:10 and out of date, but felt you were in 2:04 shape, then simply enter in the time you expect to run, and grade it accordingly. Similarily I've seen many people who might have PB's of 2:04, but were only in 2:12 shape, enter in 2:12 as an entry time, and got graded accordingly based on that.

ecoli · 28-04-2014 11:29am

Chivito550 wrote: »

Sorry, maybe PBs is the wrong word to use. Entry time would be a better description. If you're PB is 2:10 and out of date, but felt you were in 2:04 shape, then simply enter in the time you expect to run, and grade it accordingly. Similarily I've seen many people who might have PB's of 2:04, but were only in 2:12 shape, enter in 2:12 as an entry time, and got graded accordingly based on that.

To be fair that is the current set up with manual entries uses this as there are time guides to each grade (looks like they haven't transitioned to online one yet)

The other issue is there are a number of times where due to numbers races merge grades to make up numbers

pconn062 · 28-04-2014 11:47am

KielyUnusual wrote: »

Looking at the results from last year, I think you'd be perfect in this race. Looks to be a bulk of runners around the 2.10 mark, so you'd have plenty to pace off.

That's what I'm hoping anyway! Maybe our goal should be to each move up one grade by the end of the summer!

Timmaay · 28-04-2014 2:28pm

Timmaay wrote: »

Down for the b grade myself, can anyone remember what they are usually won in? I'll be aiming for a decent 1st lap, 58ish.

Ok 1st session at 800 pace in a while this morning, 3x500 with 5mins job between each rep. The aim was to be as comfortable for as long as possible. Splits were 75, 77, 77. I'll admit the 60sec lap pace is definitely the limit as to where I'm still anyway comfortable, so I'm going to revise my opening lap time back to 60/61secs on wed, and aim for a 2.03.

KielyUnusual · 28-04-2014 5:56pm

Timmaay wrote: »

Ok 1st session at 800 pace in a while this morning, 3x500 with 5mins job between each rep. The aim was to be as comfortable for as long as possible. Splits were 75, 77, 77. I'll admit the 60sec lap pace is definitely the limit as to where I'm still anyway comfortable, so I'm going to revise my opening lap time back to 60/61secs on wed, and aim for a 2.03.

Are you still running the 800
on Wednesday? Would you normally do what sounds like a tough session so close to a race?

BeepBeep67 · 28-04-2014 8:08pm

Might try and make it for the 3k, hope there's some depth or I might come last!

Timmaay · 28-04-2014 8:27pm

KielyUnusual wrote: »

Are you still running the 800
on Wednesday? Would you normally do what sounds like a tough session so close to a race?

Well I wouldn't considering it a seriously tough session, as I said the aim was to be as comfortable for as long as possible. I certainly wasn't pushing to the same extent that I have been in previous sessions when I can barely stand up after. And I did it in the morning, so the guts of 3days before the race Wednesday night. Wed isn't a huge focus for me either, just a season opener.

Timmaay · 28-04-2014 10:17pm

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

Might try and make it for the 3k, hope there's some depth or I might come last!

If your going from Wicklow let me know, no point both of us driving.

pconn062 · 29-04-2014 11:12pm

My calves are only just starting to feel normal again, so should be OK for tomorrow night. Can't believe how long it took them to recover from that session last week.

So, can be be like the marathon runners and check the weather every five minutes?! I glanced at it today and according to Met Eireann we are looking alright, maybe the odd shower and seemingly light enough breezes.

Timmaay · 30-04-2014 7:25am

pconn062 wrote: »

My calves are only just starting to feel normal again, so should be OK for tomorrow night. Can't believe how long it took them to recover from that session last week.

Kiely I'll admit defeat, that session on Monday was probably too hard too soon, calves still tight today. I'll do the race tonight definitely but I'll have to be more cautious in future.

ecoli · 30-04-2014 7:44am

Timmaay wrote: »

Kiely I'll admit defeat, that session on Monday was probably too hard too soon, calves still tight today. I'll do the race tonight definitely but I'll have to be more cautious in future.

I think sessions that close to a race (even not a target one) the most you can get away with is a light RP session.

Something as simple as 2x200, 2x400, 2x200 (400s @ 1500 pace) would be the max.

If your worried about missing a session for the week the Galen Rupp approach is probably the best one* (i.e after race doing tempo style work for short distances or turnover after long races) may seem a bit mad but I think its less stress on the body to have Wed super hard day and then allow till Saturday to recover for the next session compared to inadequate recovery in between session and race and then another session in the week.

I remember popping down to a meet a few years back (funny enough I think you organised it) ran terrible (sit and kick not the approach when you don't have wheels

) and decided to follow the session up with the fartlek on the roads. I actually felt fine on the session and I think the body copes better extending the hard effort from the race (though talking like 20-30 min rec) with the overloading than it would with underrecovering.

*Not talking definitive answer here more a case of running through my thought process on the matter

ecoli · 30-04-2014 8:00am

Finally bit the bullet. Went with B, for me its first race in a long season with plenty of 3ks to do (although I may have to contend with a few obstacles in some of them

)

Also signifies the start of track season proper for me (i.e start of speed work) as moving into competition phase of training come next week.

KielyUnusual · 30-04-2014 8:34am

ecoli wrote: »

Finally bit the bullet. Went with B, for me its first race in a long season with plenty of 3ks to do (although I may have to contend with a few obstacles in some of them )

Also signifies the start of track season proper for me (i.e start of speed work) as moving into competition phase of training come next week.

I decided not to change in the end so you'll have some company at least. Hopefully there'll be a few around the 9.10-9.20 mark and it will make things a little easier on us.

ecoli · 30-04-2014 8:48am

KielyUnusual wrote: »

Hopefully there'll be a few aiming around the 9.10-9.20 mark and it will make things a little easier on us.

FYP there given my lack of 3k work might not go to plan

BeepBeep67 · 30-04-2014 9:40am

ecoli wrote: »

Finally bit the bullet. Went with B, for me its first race in a long season with plenty of 3ks to do (although I may have to contend with a few obstacles in some of them )

Also signifies the start of track season proper for me (i.e start of speed work) as moving into competition phase of training come next week.

Looks like there was only 2 x 3k races at this stage last year, not sure how they were grouped, A & (B,C+D) or (A+B) & (C+D)?

Edit: just checked the site (B+C) & A

The Middle Distance Thread

Comments