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EU just ended Net Neutrality (oops)

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    #32
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    zeffabelli wrote: »
    Ah ok. So right now I'm paying for unlimited bandwidth. If I sign up to Netflix I pay for Netflix..., ok fine... But then my provider can charge me extra for using Netflix ?

    The provider could do that. More likely the ISP would more likely try charge Netflix and if they don't pay the abscence of net neutrality would allow the ISP to throttle Netflix. They could also throttle dropbox while giving you a better cloud solution themselves. Or whatever. All bits would not the equal.


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    #33
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,242 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    I'm not too worried. As Seamus has said, there is still a lot of time to correct this. It's disconcerting that this was allowed to happen but given that we're talking about a basic freedom, I expect a lot of people would be willing to fight this if it even looks like going ahead.

    Yeah. The E.U. seems to be on the side of competitive markets. Why would they ban roaming charges on one hand, while conspiring to break the entire internet on the other.

    There is still plenty of time to close these loopholes, and even if they aren't closed in time, they can be retrospectvely closed when it becomes obvious how important net neutrality actually is.


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    #34
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,565 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    I'm not too worried. As Seamus has said, there is still a lot of time to correct this. It's disconcerting that this was allowed to happen but given that we're talking about a basic freedom, I expect a lot of people would be willing to fight this if it even looks like going ahead.

    Yeah, but how? We have little or no say how the EU is run. Even if we elect an MP on a particular platform they are bound by party policy (both their own, and grouping) - and, as shown, might not even bother turning up (all aboard the gravy train: woo woo!). And outside the EU Parliament we have no say, at all. If the EU says net neutrality is over, you better believe that net-neutrality is over, brother.


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    #35
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Which package gets me all you can eat porn?

    That would be the basic package plus €59.99 p/m discreetly listed on your bill as "DIY talk n' tips"


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    #36
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    Mother Brain wrote: »
    To the people asking will pornography be affected, one possible (likely even?) scenario is that if net neutrality really goes away then you will find your regular free tube sites have been choked of bandwidth because they can't pay a large fee to the isp's.

    Then you'll have the one big porn company that can afford the fees pays them, and then charges you to access their content and in part, to cover the cost of the fees they pay to the providers.

    So it is quite possible indeed that free porn sites will become untenable / unusable because neutrality has been compromised. The tube sites operate on razor thin margins as it is and any significant growth in costs or decline in revenues due to fewer visitors is likely to send some of them under.

    I only hope that if or when it happens that all the apathetic folk out there who dismissed all this as none of their concern enjoy jerking off to the sight of a swirling load icon.

    Sounds like a return to low def images/videos on newsgroups and email attachments could be the way "forward" :pac:


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    #37
    KomradeBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,981 ✭✭✭KomradeBishop


    People don't understand the extent to which EU politics is dominated by lobby groups - Brussels is second in the world, only to Washington, where it comes to the power of lobby groups, with huge amounts of money being spent for this purpose - don't underestimate the power of these groups, to corrupt the EU and parliament:
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/08/lobbyists-european-parliament-brussels-corporate

    For instance, here is a lengthy report citing much to fault with the operation of the EU - including parliament:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/24/business/international/anti-corruption-group-finds-fault-with-european-union.html?_r=0

    Recommend the documentary 'The Brussels Business', for a good analysis of the problem as well:
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2279313/


    People - up until recently - might think the EU is relatively benign when it comes to lawmaking and whatnot, due to good regulations regarding quality food and such - but we're going to fast see all of the 'good' regulations from the EU disappear, when international treaties like TTIP start completely stripping away all the good that has been done, in order to integrate EU and US markets (i.e. in order to open up the EU, to all of the sub-par produce from the US, that is currently illegal here).

    So, I can realistically see a complete U-turn on the way for the EU, where it starts being used to deliberately enforce blatantly damaging policies like this current net-neutrality-ending one, in order to suit corporate interests, at the expense of the public.

    We've already seen how projects aimed at European integration - the Euro most especially - have been a trap/backdoor that is now being used to control countries politically (control over currency in bad economic times = effective control over countries politically, and can be used to keep countries under 'bad economic times' i.e. under permanent political control), and if people aren't a lot more active in opposing EU-level lobbying and international 'trade' treaties, we're going to see international 'treaties' and the EU, both used to cement control over European countries, and strip more power away from the national level.

    People think the future of the EU is going to - eventually - be democratic. Reality is that there's a very good chance that it won't be, unless the public become a lot more politically active/attentive (the trend so far has been a gradual erosion of democracy, combined with creeping corporate influence at an EU level).


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    #38
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,369 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    Yeah, but how? We have little or no say how the EU is run. Even if we elect an MP on a particular platform they are bound by party policy (both their own, and grouping) - and, as shown, might not even bother turning up (all aboard the gravy train: woo woo!). And outside the EU Parliament we have no say, at all. If the EU says net neutrality is over, you better believe that net-neutrality is over, brother.

    Ah but there are large online businesses who won't want to be held to ransom by lowly ISPs such as Facebook, Google, Netflix & Twitter. Lobbying governments might work for us for a change.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #39
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,665 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Ah but there are large online businesses who won't want to be held to ransom by lowly ISPs such as Facebook, Google, Netflix & Twitter. Lobbying governments might work for us for a change.

    Who all lobbied hard here and were ignored once again by legislators who "know better"


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    #40
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,369 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    VinLieger wrote: »
    Who all lobbied hard here and were ignored once again by legislators who "know better"

    This isn't set in stone yet. There is still quite a bit of time to prevent this.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #41
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,665 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    This isn't set in stone yet. There is still quite a bit of time to prevent this.

    After this and TTIP I have little hope of any votes in Brussels going the way of the people the MEPs say they represent would most benefit from


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    #42
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,369 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    VinLieger wrote: »
    After this and TTIP I have little hope of any votes in Brussels going the way of the people the MEPs say they represent would most benefit from

    TTIP is not through yet. In any case, net neutrality wouldn't be an issue there. ISDS exists to protect foreign firms against discrimination. Net Neutrality does not discriminate.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #43
    KomradeBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,981 ✭✭✭KomradeBishop


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    TTIP is not through yet. In any case, net neutrality wouldn't be an issue there. ISDS exists to protect foreign firms against discrimination. Net Neutrality does not discriminate.
    That's a very sanitized reading of ISDS. ISDS exists to further strip nations of their sovereignty, and put them at the whims of largely unaccountable international courts, where they (whole nations) can be subject to sanctions.

    ISDS is a method of enforcing a very specific and limited set of political goals, centered almost entirely around deregulation/privatization - as its purpose is to create a significant cost to nations, for having/implementing regulations, and to create a bigger impetus for deregulation/privatization (by manufacturing a new artificial 'cost' to nations, for just keeping existing regulations/nationalized-industry).

    Keep in mind, the pressure countries are under in tough economic times, to rein in the budget and spin-off public services, and imagine then, how ISDS can then be used as a threat to impose even greater cost/sanction on countries, if they do not strip away regulations and further spin off public services into privatization - it's a huge political and economic threat to countries, that will be opportunistically used by politicians, as an excuse for pursuing (and hastening on) the above policies.

    It's a good example of tipping powers in favour of corporations, not just over the public, but over entire nations - and a massive threat to the sovereignty and democratic integrity of those nations.


    International courts like that, have pretty much zero democratic accountability, and there is little recourse or way to impose accountability, if they become corrupt or their process becomes easily gameable/corruptible by corporations - as ISDS courts have a history of.

    These kinds of policies, tend to be promoted by people who think the idea of national sovereignty (and almost of democracy itself) is passé or such - which is a very common sentiment that seems to be expressed by some of the more staunch defenders of EU integration as well, seeing as that is leading to an acceleration erosion of national sovereignty and democracy.


    The very fact that treaties like this are even close to being enacted, and have gotten to such an advanced stage of negotiation, is extremely alarming really...


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