2 PIRs on one circuit

youtheman · 22-07-2010 3:05pm #1

Built an extension onto the back of my house. Ran a multicore back to the alarm panel for an additional PIR sensor. BUt my alarm engineer told me that there are no free zones, and I could wire the new PIR to an existing PIR circuit but 'it was not a great idea'. He could put in a new alarm board with extra zones, cost around €450.

I had a look at the internet and I found a wiring diagram for two PIRs in one circuit. Basically, the + and - wires are in parallel and the contacts and tampers are in series. Looks logical to me.

Can anyone confirm if it is indeed 'a good idea ' or not.

Also, with the new regulations, and I commmitting an offence if I do it 'DIY'.

KoolKid · 22-07-2010 3:29pm

Is he quoting you €450 to replace the panel & keypad?
If so thats ok of a price. If he is charging that for fitting an expander its a bit dear. What system do you have anyway?
2 PiRs on the one zone is not recommend because of the high resistence.
The system would not be up to new regulations. Then again as its DIY it would not be up to standards either way.

youtheman · 22-07-2010 3:41pm

Thanks KK for the response.

It's a HKC alarm. He told me he had to replace the internals of the alarm (the metal box, like the motherboard in a PC).

I note your comments about non-compliance with the new regulations. That alone, I think, is enough to 'knock it on the head'.

My existing PIR gives me good coverage in the new extension (though not 100%).

As it happens, I had an attempted break in a few weekends ago. 4.30 am on a Sunday morning and the alarm goes off. I look out and see two hoodies exiting the side of my house. Partially my own fault, the side gate was open (had been for a few weeks while the builders were on site) and the back door was unlocked (oversight) I reckon they tried the back door, when the alrm didn't go off they thought they were away on a hack (the contacts hadn't been installed at that stage), they were a few feet into the room when the existing PIR detected them.

But just goes to show they must be cruising around looking for dumb schmucks like me.

KoolKid · 22-07-2010 3:42pm

Do you know what model HKC panel you have?
How many zones at the moment?

youtheman · 22-07-2010 3:49pm

koolkid wrote: »

Do you know what model HKC panel you have?
How many zones at the moment?

Not 'off the top of my head'. Will get the details this evening and revert tomorrow.

I think its 12 zones, but I need to check.

KoolKid · 22-07-2010 4:32pm

If its an 8/12 then the max is the 12 zones.
Post back when you know. There may or may not be an easy solution.

altor · 22-07-2010 6:32pm

youtheman wrote: »

Built an extension onto the back of my house. Ran a multicore back to the alarm panel for an additional PIR sensor. BUt my alarm engineer told me that there are no free zones, and I could wire the new PIR to an existing PIR circuit but 'it was not a great idea'. He could put in a new alarm board with extra zones, cost around €450.

I had a look at the internet and I found a wiring diagram for two PIRs in one circuit. Basically, the + and - wires are in parallel and the contacts and tampers are in series. Looks logical to me.

Can anyone confirm if it is indeed 'a good idea ' or not.

Also, with the new regulations, and I commmitting an offence if I do it 'DIY'.

Does this alarm engineer know what he is talking about

looks like he is trying to get himself a handy upgrade.
If you have a HKC 8 zone panel installed all you need to do is install 2 point ID motion detectors on a zone, with these you can install 10 on one zone and they are all given there own point. You can install 40 devices on 4 zones this way, all with there own identity.

You say you dont have any spare zones in the panel but i am sure he could move the the pir zone to a different zone to allow you install point ID motions on zones 5,6,7 or 8. Even if it is only the HKC 6 zone panel this can be done.

There is no law stopping you doing this work yourself. Just inform your insurance company of the situation.

Install the existing pir on a zone module and install 1 point ID motion, thats how it should be done.

youtheman · 22-07-2010 7:22pm

Its a SW 8/12 panel (see photo below).

There are 12 zones as follows:
1. front door
2. Room 1 windows
3. Room 2 windows
4. Room 1 PIR
5. Hall PIR
6. Room 3 windows
7. Room 4 windows
8. Panic Buttons
9. Room 2 PIR
10. Landing PIR
11. Room 3 PIR
12. Room 4 PIR

altor · 22-07-2010 7:24pm

youtheman wrote: »

Its a SW 8/12 panel (see photo below).

There are 12 zones as follows:
1. front door
2. Room 1 windows
3. Room 2 windows
4. Room 1 PIR
5. Hall PIR
6. Room 3 windows
7. Room 4 windows
8. Panic Buttons
9. Room 2 PIR
10. Landing PIR
11. Room 3 PIR
12. Room 4 PIR

[IMG]<a href="http://s185.photobucket.com/albums/x197/langball_2007/?action=view&current=IMG_1495.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x197/langball_2007/IMG_1495.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>[/IMG]

Just get him to do as i said, very easy to do.

KoolKid · 22-07-2010 7:38pm

Altor's suggestion is the most straightforward.
You could also series in zone 2 and 3 to free up a zone.
I certainly would not be recommending to upgrade to a bigger panel in this instance.

altor · 22-07-2010 7:43pm

Either way will work but wont cost anywhere near €450

KoolKid · 22-07-2010 7:55pm

altor wrote: »

Either way will work but wont cost anywhere near €450

That's for sure.

youtheman · 22-07-2010 8:08pm

Thank's for the suggestions. I'm not familiar with 'Point ID Motions', must look it up on the web.

I can, however, understand the suggestion about combining two zones (with contacts only) into one zone, freeing it up for the new PIR.

altor · 22-07-2010 8:59pm

youtheman wrote: »

Thank's for the suggestions. I'm not familiar with 'Point ID Motions', must look it up on the web.

I can, however, understand the suggestion about combining two zones (with contacts only) into one zone, freeing it up for the new PIR.

If your not familiar, connecting the two zones together will work. I was just pointing out with the ID sensors you would not of needed extra zones, you could of used an 8 zone panel. Just remember the zone unless you have the engineer code to change this will be set up to activate when the alarm is set. If you want the beam off in partset you will need to change this in the zone options.

tommyh1977 · 23-07-2010 9:50pm

I'd definately just series out the window zones to free up a zone for your P.I.R., that's of course if when these zones are combined you end up with less than 10 devices, but again when it's DIY doesnt really matter.

KoolKid · 23-07-2010 9:55pm

If I'm reading it correctly there are only 3 devices on the 2 zones to be joined.
You are right of course,being DIY it is irrelevant.

altor · 23-07-2010 10:43pm

tommyh1977 wrote: »

I'd definately just series out the window zones to free up a zone for your P.I.R., that's of course if when these zones are combined you end up with less than 10 devices, but again when it's DIY doesnt really matter.

Regardless of it being diy or not 11 or more devices should not be on a zone. We are here to advise people of the proper way of doing this for themselves or advise them of what way it can be done if they have being told differently. From what your saying he could just as well put the two motions on the same zone :eek: Not good advise either way.

tommyh1977 · 24-07-2010 10:06am

altor wrote: »

Regardless of it being diy or not 11 or more devices should not be on a zone. We are here to advise people of the proper way of doing this for themselves or advise them of what way it can be done if they have being told differently. From what your saying he could just as well put the two motions on the same zone :eek: Not good advise either way.

Ok cool your jets there mate, considering you did not point out the 10 device limit per zone in you previous post. At the end of the day i agree there is a right way and a wrong way of doing everything but when it is DIY, it will always be the DIY'ers way. When i said it doesnt really matter because it is DIY i meant it doesnt really matter as he wont be certifying the install himself, i never said technically it didnt matter!!!! Then if he does employ a licenced installer to certify his Alarm its up to that installer to find the flaws such as devices per zone

youtheman · 24-07-2010 10:48am

Thanks folks for all the helpful device. I was thinking of a DIY solution when I though the panel was 'full'. Now that the solution would appear be to free up a zone by combining two 'contacts only' zones together, I'll get a proper alarm installer to do the job.

altor · 24-07-2010 10:56am

tommyh1977 wrote: »

i agree there is a right way and a wrong way of doing everything but when it is DIY, it will always be the DIY'ers way.

tommyh1977 wrote: »

when it's DIY doesnt really matter.

Regardless of it being diy or not it can still be done correctly with the proper guidance.

2 PIRs on one circuit

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