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Is Northern Ireland culturally Scottish or Irish?

  • 21-12-2015 1:42pm
    #1
    masti123
    Registered Users Posts: 661 ✭✭✭


    Not trying to start a war here, just looking for some responses to a question I've considered for a while, how do people view culture in Northern Ireland?

    Also please be aware that I'm using Unionist and Nationalist as catch-all terms, otherwise the options will be full of rambling explanations and apologies to whoever may not like being lumped into a certain group. Hopefully the poll options will cover all opinions, but if your thoughts cannot be expressed with a vote then please feel free to yell at me down below.

    Is Northern Ireland culturally Scottish or Irish? 85 votes

    Culturally Scottish
    1% 1 vote
    Culturally Irish
    7% 6 votes
    50/50: Split between Unionists and Nationalists
    24% 21 votes
    All three are culturally British
    18% 16 votes
    All three are culturally Celtic/Gaelic
    5% 5 votes
    Unionist culture is distinct from the rest of Scotland
    5% 5 votes
    Nationalist culture is distinct from the rest of Ireland
    2% 2 votes
    Northern Ireland has its own distinct culture
    4% 4 votes
    Why did you post this? Are you trying to start a fight?!
    23% 20 votes
    Does it really matter?
    5% 5 votes


«1

Comments

  • #2
    Andre 3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,488 ✭✭✭Andre 3000


    It's culturally Northern Irish.


  • #3
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,248 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    Let's put aside our differences & all agree that they do sound quite funny.


  • #4
    Menas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,318 ✭✭✭✭Menas


    Why do you need to know?!


  • #5
    timthumbni
    Registered Users Posts: 4,845 ✭✭✭timthumbni


    BoJack Horseman wrote: »
    Let's put aside our differences & all agree that they do sound quite funny.

    I'm a proud Northern Irishman but I have to admit our accents are funny. I think it was the author Colin Bateman who described a Northern Irish accent as sounding like someone who is complaining about something and quite aggressive even when they are trying to be polite.


  • #6
    armaghlad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,660 ✭✭✭armaghlad


    Andre 3000 wrote: »
    It's culturally Northern Irish.
    Which entails?


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  • #7
    dd972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭dd972


    These things can vary even within Unionist communities, you get the sort of Northern Protestant like James Nesbitt, Van Morrison or Eddie Irvine who seem quite comfortable being perceived as Irish, quite different from the sort of drunken, neanderthal Loyalists who riot because the PSNI won't allow them to march down a certain road.


  • #8
    timthumbni
    Registered Users Posts: 4,845 ✭✭✭timthumbni


    dd972 wrote: »
    These things can vary even within Unionist communities, you get the sort of Northern Protestant like James Nesbitt, Van Morrison or Eddie Irvine who seem quite comfortable being perceived as Irish, quite different from the sort of drunken, neanderthal Loyalists who riot because the PSNI won't allow them to march down a certain road.

    Jimmy Nesbit was in a loyalist band as a cub and actually was very handy with the stick as you would see in the movie he did with Martin sheen a while back. If memory serves me right he even whistled the sash in it. Sound fella right enough and likes the odd gargle.


  • #9
    armaghlad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,660 ✭✭✭armaghlad


    There is Irish culture in NI, which generally speaking is no different than to the rest of Ireland.

    Then there is Unionist culture (which I would probably consider a sub culture of Irish culture). This has various shades ranging from moderate, non-religious types who tend to refer to themselves as Northern Irish as opposed to Irish or British; to the more militant Loyalist types who despise anything Irish and consider themselves lynchpins in the Empire.


  • #10
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,752 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    NI has Gaelic/Celtic culture.


  • #11
    The Backwards Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,299 ✭✭✭✭The Backwards Man


    RobertKK wrote: »
    NI has Gaelic/Celtic culture.

    So has most of Northwestern Europe, to be fair.


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  • #12
    Herb Powell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,097 ✭✭✭Herb Powell


    Was talking with someone a few months ago who reckoned Northern Ireland is closer to Scotland than the rest of Ireland, as that particular brand of Presbyterianism (thinking of Calvin, Knox, etc) is really rooted there. Luther is credited with planting the seeds of the reformation, but if you think about it the real driving force behind protestantism as a whole was these Scottish reformers. It's on a whole other level to anything going on down here.

    Of course, to say that this sums up Northern Ireland as a culture is ignoring a lot, but it is an important part of the region's history and to deny its impact would also be wrong.

    Really interesting discussion, and I think OP is being dismissed to easily by plenty on here who just want some easy internet points.


  • #13
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,537 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I'd say it's culturally Northern Irish.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #14
    armaghlad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,660 ✭✭✭armaghlad


    What is Northern Irish culture?

    I live in NI and I don't know what it is.


  • #15
    Mr. CooL ICE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,642 ✭✭✭✭Mr. CooL ICE


    Moved to Anthropology, Sociology & Culture. Please read the charter before posting.


  • #16
    masti123
    Registered Users Posts: 661 ✭✭✭masti123


    armaghlad wrote: »
    What is Northern Irish culture?

    I live in NI and I don't know what it is.

    Look at our accent and the language we use, you'll see both Scottish and Irish Gaelic in there (Ulster scots and Irish). Look at the sports we play here as well, everything from hurling to football to cricket.


  • #17
    armaghlad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,660 ✭✭✭armaghlad


    masti123 wrote: »
    Look at our accent and the language we use, you'll see both Scottish and Irish Gaelic in there (Ulster scots and Irish). Look at the sports we play here as well, everything from hurling to football to cricket.
    Accent? What accent is that? I wouldn't say there is an actual NI accent. To the untrained ear maybe - to be fair there's a very broad accent around Belfast and surrounding areas that people like to refer to as the "northern accent". Though in saying that five of the six counties have similar if not exact accents to neighbouring counties over border.

    As for Ulster Scots, any tangible presence in everyday vernacular is confined to a few small pockets in Antrim, Derry, Donegal and Down.

    Sports, are there any sports that are unique to NI? The aforementioned are played all over the island. In fact GAA is the most popular sport both North and South.


  • #18
    selous
    Registered Users Posts: 1,373 ✭✭✭selous


    I heard somewhere that the "hard" Northern Ireland accent can't pronounce "SIXTH" is that true??


  • #19
    Labarbapostiza
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 963 ✭✭✭Labarbapostiza


    The Scots and the Irish are Gaels. Gaelic was the language of both Scotland and Ireland. If you want to class the ethnic group by language then Scotland and Ireland are ethnically identical.

    The similarities with the neighbouring island, have a lot to do with latitude. Scotland to Northern Ireland is near by sea, as southern Ireland is nearer to England by sea. The cultural transmission back and forth has a lot to do with latitude.

    For thousands of years travelling by boat, was faster and easier than travelling by land.


  • #20
    EastTyrone
    Registered Users Posts: 362 ✭✭EastTyrone


    Hard to know where to come from with this.

    I myself am from Tyrone, many of you may call this "Northern Ireland" however I call it Ireland.

    Myself and people around me are just as Irish as any one from Louth, Donegal, Galway or Kerry.

    I play Gaelic football, I can play the Banjo, flute, tun whistle, Bodhran, and sing Irish songs and even speak Irish, just like many people in any other county in Ireland.

    My people in my community even adhere to Irish culture just like in any other part of Ireland - even upholding many traditions that have been abandoned in the rest of Ireland, it is still common to have people calling in unannounced into houses on their "ceili" telling stories and yarns from days gone by. Other Irish customs we have such as sitting up at wakes are still a common occurrence around us.

    I do think that there is a large cross over however with Scottish customs etc, folk collectors sent from Dublin to my area in the early 1900s remarked that local songs had a lot in common with the songs they collected from the Scottish highlands and Islands, this would correspond with people from the north going to work in Scotland during the summer months as farm hands. However this is not just a "Northern Ireland" issue as it has been well documented that people from Donegal made up a large contingent of these migratory workers. This can also be seen in the "Donegal fiddling style" and dances and tunes which would be popular in around Donegal in fact being variations of Scottish music and dances.

    By claiming Northern Ireland is culturally Scottish is very narrow minded, just remember that Donegal is further north than a lot of "NI". They too have these same cultural differences to the rest of Ireland that you speak of, being from Tyrone but having traveled extensively around Ireland I have commonly been greeted with "Are you from Donegal" mistaking a Tyrone accent for a Donegal accent so one would have to take that as a collective "Ulster difference" rather than a "Northern Ireland" difference, just remember Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal where all colonised during the plantation of Ulster! Not just the 6 counties.

    Yes, there is a large Scottish element in Protestant, Unionist, Loyalist culture in NI, this differs from what Scots would perceive as Scottish culture they in fact would look at their culture as Irish. I know many Protestants who wake their dead just as Catholic "Irish" would - sit up with the corpse etc. and who ceili and all just like the "Irish".

    I would have to say that it is mostly Irish culture in the north, but would have a greater Scottish influence than the rest of Ireland. Just like people can claim for the viking influence in Wexford/ Waterford than the rest of the country.


  • #21
    tac foley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,500 ✭✭✭tac foley


    Labarbapostiza wrote: »
    The Scots and the Irish are Gaels. Gaelic was the language of both Scotland and Ireland. If you want to class the ethnic group by language then Scotland and Ireland are ethnically identical.

    Not quite, Sir. It is more apposite to say that the Scottii tribe are ALSO Gaels. Historically-speaking the merging of the Scottii from Northern Ireland and the dominance of the language that they brought with them, and the inhabitants of what is now called Scotland, is a recent event, having taken place as late as the 11th C.

    Before the Gaelic-speaking Scottii tribe from Ulster invaded northern Britain, the local language there was a form of Brythonic - the now extinct so-called Pictish, almost certainly a variation of the P-Celtic Brithonic language spoken by the rest of the Greater Britain before the arrival of the Romans, and after they had gone. Today Scottish Gaelic is only spoken by the West coast of Scotland and adjacent islands.

    See - 'The Picts were a tribal confederation of peoples who lived in what is today eastern and northern Scotland during the Late Iron Age and Early Medieval periods. They are thought to have been ethnolinguistically Celtic. Where they lived and what their culture was like can be inferred from the geographical distribution of brochs, Brithonic place name elements, and Pictish stones. Picts are attested to in written records from before the Roman conquest of Britain to the 10th century, when they are thought to have merged with the Gaels. They lived to the north of the rivers Forth and Clyde, and spoke the now-extinct Pictish language, which is thought to have been related to the Brittonic language spoken by the Britons who lived to the south of them.[1]

    Picts are assumed to have been the descendants of the Caledonii and other tribes that were mentioned by Roman historians or on the world map of Ptolemy. Pictland, also called Pictavia by some sources, gradually merged with the Gaelic kingdom of Dál Riata to form the Kingdom of Alba (Scotland). Alba then expanded, absorbing the Brittonic kingdom of Strathclyde and Bernician Lothian, and by the 11th century the Pictish identity had been subsumed into the "Scots" amalgamation of peoples.

    Pictish society was typical of many Iron Age societies in northern Europe, having "wide connections and parallels" with neighbouring groups.[2] Archaeology gives some impression of the society of the Picts. While very little in the way of Pictish writing has survived, Pictish history since the late 6th century is known from a variety of sources, including Bede's Historia ecclesiastica gentis Anglorum, saints' lives such as that of Columba by Adomnán, and various Irish annals.'

    tac


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  • #22
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    selous wrote: »
    I heard somewhere that the "hard" Northern Ireland accent can't pronounce "SIXTH" is that true??
    Yes, they can only say "Two Twelfths".

    Seriously though, there are two quite separate cultures in NI. One is 100% Irish; the other is part Scottish, part Irish, and part its own unique thing.


  • #23
    eire4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,767 ✭✭✭eire4


    I would say culturally Irish.


  • #24
    Fighting leprechaun 20
    Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭Fighting leprechaun 20


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    I'd say it's culturally Northern Irish.

    What is culturally Northern Irish though ? Northern irish hasnt existed long enough to really develop a culture . Not trying to say you cant consider your self that but l always though the indigenous irish wanted to unite with the rest of Eire . And the scottish planters wanted to claim northern ireland for scotland within the united kingdom just unofficially.


  • #25
    Fighting leprechaun 20
    Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭Fighting leprechaun 20


    masti123 wrote: »
    Look at our accent and the language we use, you'll see both Scottish and Irish Gaelic in there (Ulster scots and Irish). Look at the sports we play here as well, everything from hurling to football to cricket.

    To be fair the "northern ireland accent" isnt exclusive to northern ireland quite a few similar if not identical accents in the rest of Ireland.


  • #26
    Fighting leprechaun 20
    Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭Fighting leprechaun 20


    Labarbapostiza wrote: »
    The Scots and the Irish are Gaels. Gaelic was the language of both Scotland and Ireland. If you want to class the ethnic group by language then Scotland and Ireland are ethnically identical.

    The similarities with the neighbouring island, have a lot to do with latitude. Scotland to Northern Ireland is near by sea, as southern Ireland is nearer to England by sea. The cultural transmission back and forth has a lot to do with latitude.

    For thousands of years travelling by boat, was faster and easier than travelling by land.

    by majority 95% of scotland was pictish not gealic . Most scottish planters who invaded ulster were of scots germanic ancestry . Historically ulster has always had the most in common with the rest of ireland which is reflected in myth sport ect . Such as cu chuliann and Ferdia brothers from different provinces of Ireland. Its more like a couple of western isles had more in common with ireland than the rest of northern britian .


  • #27
    Avatar MIA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    Fighting leprechaun 20 wrote: »
    To be fair the "northern ireland accent" isnt exclusive to northern ireland quite a few similar if not identical accents in the rest of Ireland.

    Some similarity in Donegal alright, but Northern Ireland accents are VERY distinct and very different from most of Ireland or Britain. And most people could tell the difference between a Donegal accent (Packie Bonner) and NI accents.


  • #28
    Fighting leprechaun 20
    Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭Fighting leprechaun 20


    EastTyrone wrote: »
    Hard to know where to come from with this.

    I myself am from Tyrone, many of you may call this "Northern Ireland" however I call it Ireland.

    Myself and people around me are just as Irish as any one from Louth, Donegal, Galway or Kerry.

    I play Gaelic football, I can play the Banjo, flute, tun whistle, Bodhran, and sing Irish songs and even speak Irish, just like many people in any other county in Ireland.

    My people in my community even adhere to Irish culture just like in any other part of Ireland - even upholding many traditions that have been abandoned in the rest of Ireland, it is still common to have people calling in unannounced into houses on their "ceili" telling stories and yarns from days gone by. Other Irish customs we have such as sitting up at wakes are still a common occurrence around us.

    I do think that there is a large cross over however with Scottish customs etc, folk collectors sent from Dublin to my area in the early 1900s remarked that local songs had a lot in common with the songs they collected from the Scottish highlands and Islands, this would correspond with people from the north going to work in Scotland during the summer months as farm hands. However this is not just a "Northern Ireland" issue as it has been well documented that people from Donegal made up a large contingent of these migratory workers. This can also be seen in the "Donegal fiddling style" and dances and tunes which would be popular in around Donegal in fact being variations of Scottish music and dances.

    By claiming Northern Ireland is culturally Scottish is very narrow minded, just remember that Donegal is further north than a lot of "NI". They too have these same cultural differences to the rest of Ireland that you speak of, being from Tyrone but having traveled extensively around Ireland I have commonly been greeted with "Are you from Donegal" mistaking a Tyrone accent for a Donegal accent so one would have to take that as a collective "Ulster difference" rather than a "Northern Ireland" difference, just remember Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal where all colonised during the plantation of Ulster! Not just the 6 counties.

    Yes, there is a large Scottish element in Protestant, Unionist, Loyalist culture in NI, this differs from what Scots would perceive as Scottish culture they in fact would look at their culture as Irish. I know many Protestants who wake their dead just as Catholic "Irish" would - sit up with the corpse etc. and who ceili and all just like the "Irish".

    I would have to say that it is mostly Irish culture in the north, but would have a greater Scottish influence than the rest of Ireland. Just like people can claim for the viking influence in Wexford/ Waterford than the rest of the country.

    *just remember Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal where all colonised during the plantation of Ulster*

    Yes of course but to a much lesser degree which is why those areas have never been much of a problem . I live near ulster and I regularly visit cavan and I've never seen anyone exhibit orange or scottish/english culture.or loyalist tendencies for that matter .


  • #29
    Fighting leprechaun 20
    Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭Fighting leprechaun 20


    Avatar MIA wrote: »
    Some similarity in Donegal alright, but Northern Ireland accents are VERY distinct and very different from most of Ireland or Britain. And most people could tell the difference between a Donegal accent (Packie Bonner) and NI accents.

    Eh l wouldnt say that l dont think the british or americans can tell the difference . I remember a friend of mine who was from northern ireland would get tormented by these scottish tories who just couldnt tell the difference .most countys of ireland have quite different accents to be fair. Maybe northern ireland accent was influnced by the scottish planters but so what dublin accent was influnced by the english and is much more unique.


  • #30
    mzungu
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,309 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    Fighting leprechaun 20 wrote: »
    Eh l wouldnt say that l dont think the british or americans can tell the difference . I remember a friend of mine who was from northern ireland would get tormented by these scottish tories who just couldnt tell the difference .most countys of ireland have quite different accents to be fair. Maybe northern ireland accent was influnced by the scottish planters but so what dublin accent was influnced by the english and is much more unique.
    A Scottish influence is there alright. Interesting piece about it here:
    Northern Ireland

    Accents and Dialects of Northern Ireland

    The Plantation of Ulster that began in 1609 was a planned process of settlement aimed at preventing further rebellion among the population in the north of Ireland. This part of the island was at that time virtually exclusively Gaelic-speaking and had shown the greatest resistance to English colonisation. From the early seventeenth century onwards, Irish lands were confiscated and given to British settlers — or ‘planters’ — who arrived in increasing numbers, bringing the English Language with them. Large numbers of settlers came from southwest Scotland and thus spoke a Scots dialect, while the remaining settlers came predominantly from the north and Midlands of England. By 1830, for instance, Londonderry had a population that was 25% Scots, 25% English and 50% Irish.

    Diverse influences

    For some considerable time the colonists remained surrounded by Gaelic-speaking communities in County Donegal to the west and the counties of Louth, Monaghan and Cavan to the south. Thus English in the northeast of the island developed in relative isolation from other English-speaking areas such as Dublin, while the political situation over the course of the twentieth century has meant that Northern Ireland has continued to develop a linguistic tradition that is distinct from the rest of Ireland. Scots, Irish Gaelic, seventeenth century English and Hiberno-English (the English spoken in the Republic of Ireland) have all influenced the development of Northern Irish English, and this mixture explains the very distinctive hybrid that has emerged.

    Distinctive sounds

    Speech in the whole of Ireland is for instance rhotic - that is speakers pronounce an <r> sound after a vowel in words like farm, first and better. The pronunciation of this <r> sound is, however, much more like the sound we hear in an English West Country accent than the ‘tapped’ or ‘rolled’ <r> sound we associate with Scottish speakers. On the other hand the vowel system of Northern Irish English more closely resembles that of Scottish English, rather than the English of England, Wales or the Republic of Ireland. Pairs such as pull and pool are often homophones, boot frequently rhymes with foot and phrases such as good food are pronounced with vowels of equal length in Belfast and Glasgow, for instance, but not in Dublin, London or Cardiff. Many speakers - particularly older speakers in rural communities — retain pronunciations that are a throwback to much older, conservative forms of English, such as inserting a <y> sound after an initial <k> or <g> in words like car and garden, such that they sound a little like ‘kyarr’ or ‘gyarrden’. Northern Irish English also has a very distinctive intonation pattern and a broad Northern Irish accent is characterised by a very noticeable tendency to raise the pitch towards the end of an utterance, even if the speaker is not asking a question.

    As in Scotland, some speakers claim to speak a dialect (or language, depending on one’s point of view) that traces its roots back to the earliest Scottish settlers — Ulster Scots. Ulster Scots has been recognised by the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages and, although there is no attempt to classify it as a language in The Good Friday agreement of 1998, Ulster Scots is cited as ‘part of the cultural wealth of the island of Ireland'.

    Link: http://www.bl.uk/learning/langlit/sounds/find-out-more/northern-ireland/


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  • #31
    Fighting leprechaun 20
    Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭Fighting leprechaun 20


    mzungu wrote: »
    A Scottish influence is there alright. Interesting piece about it here:

    But again as l said the dublin accent is more unique and no one would consider them different than the rest of ireland . The cork and galway accent are probably the original accents spoken here before english and scottish plantations/invasion .


  • #32
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    If the original language of Dublin was Norse, and there were other languages along the east coast, then you would expect different regions to have different accents when speaking modern English.
    I don't think there is any one "original" Irish accent.

    Also bear in mind that the "original" inhabitants of Ireland didn't speak Irish anyway. If you could travel back in time to when Newgrange was in its heyday, there would be no point trying to communicate with the locals as gaeilge. They would consider that to be a foreign language. They might guess (correctly) that it was some sort of central european celtic language.


  • #33
    Fighting leprechaun 20
    Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭Fighting leprechaun 20


    recedite wrote: »
    If the original language of Dublin was Norse, and there were other languages along the east coast, then you would expect different regions to have different accents when speaking modern English.
    I don't think there is any one "original" Irish accent.

    Also bear in mind that the "original" inhabitants of Ireland didn't speak Irish anyway. If you could travel back in time to when Newgrange was in its heyday, there would be no point trying to communicate with the locals as gaeilge. They would consider that to be a foreign language. They might guess (correctly) that it was some sort of central european celtic language.

    Funny enough lve had a debate on this before l do not believe the norse established dublin it existed before they came here in a way they just expanded it into a city . The romans called dublin Eblana it was probably a trade hub settlement .

    Even the neolithic and mesolithic people are not the original people of this island . What l meant was cork and galway accent are the orginal geal accents on this island before the scots english norse & normans .Yola language is interesting alright .

    My point is theres nothing that makes The so called northern irish unique enough to be considered their own thing . Not along enough history to develop a different culture,most northern irish culture republican and even loyalist cultures are just irish stuff repackaged . For example the red hand the loyalist seem to love is ironically an ancient irish symbol that existed long before they did . What really defines the northern irish and sets them apart from the rest of ireland ?

    Most of the irish in northern ireland have family across the border and are near culturally identical if not completely. The undemocratic partition of that part of Ireland was/is gross & silly .

    The existence of the northern irish is simply modern politics.


  • #34
    please helpThank YOU
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,390 ✭✭✭please helpThank YOU


    Herb Powell wrote: »
    Was talking with someone a few months ago who reckoned Northern Ireland is closer to Scotland than the rest of Ireland, as that particular brand of Presbyterianism (thinking of Calvin, Knox, etc) is really rooted there. Luther is credited with planting the seeds of the reformation, but if you think about it the real driving force behind protestantism as a whole was these Scottish reformers. It's on a whole other level to anything going on down here.

    Of course, to say that this sums up Northern Ireland as a culture is ignoring a lot, but it is an important part of the region's history and to deny its impact would also be wrong.

    Really interesting discussion, and I think OP is being dismissed to easily by plenty on here who just want some easy internet points.
    Scottish Planters in Ulster but we had the also had the English Plantation of Munster so are People in Munster English our Irish?


  • #35
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Fighting leprechaun 20 wrote: »
    l do not believe the norse established dublin it existed before they came here in a way they just expanded it into a city . The romans called dublin Eblana it was probably a trade hub settlement .
    Interesting idea, but there's a few problems with that theory, as described here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eblana
    With Newgrange and Tara both situated in the general area, there must have been a well established community around there during Roman times, but probably not all living in a town. So the "trading hub" could have been anywhere.


  • #36
    Fighting leprechaun 20
    Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭Fighting leprechaun 20


    please helpThank YOU wrote: »
    Scottish Planters in Ulster but we had the also had the English Plantation of Munster so are People in Munster English our Irish?

    The english plantations of munster never actually successful they were massive failure, ironically it was the scots who truly conquered ireland & subjugated the population to long lasting British rule. not the english. The english never really had any control over ireland just in theory but not reality .

    Also l never claimed people from ulster were scottish so l dont know why you are asking me that .


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  • #37
    Fighting leprechaun 20
    Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭Fighting leprechaun 20


    recedite wrote: »
    Interesting idea, but there's a few problems with that theory, as described here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eblana
    With Newgrange and Tara both situated in the general area, there must have been a well established community around there during Roman times, but probably not all living in a town. So the "trading hub" could have been anywhere.

    Well aware of the criticism put agasnt this theory but Claudius Ptolemaeus pins a major Irish settlement Elbana where dublin is located now .

    Also while we are on the topic is there any evidence newgrange was still actively being used during 100AD? Surely it was abounded and covered in rush grass and dirt .

    At any rate dublin existed before the vikings just not in its current state of course . Interesting theory is that dublin merged with the irish settlement of Áth Cliath . The name of dublin does not appear to be of norse origin dubh meaning black (so dublin is black pool) it seems to have old irish roots in its terminology.


  • #38
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    Fighting leprechaun 20 wrote: »
    The english plantations of munster never actually successful they were massive failure, ironically it was the scots who truly conquered ireland & subjugated the population to long lasting British rule. not the english. The english never really had any control over ireland just in theory but not reality .

    Also l never claimed people from ulster were scottish so l dont know why you are asking me that .
    Just Look at all the English Surnames in Cork City Limerick City Waterford City and then you had the Pale Dublin City the English left there mark in all Four Cities .


  • #39
    Fighting leprechaun 20
    Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭Fighting leprechaun 20


    please helpThank YOU wrote: »
    Just Look at all the English Surnames in Cork City Limerick City Waterford City and then you had the Pale Dublin City the English left there mark in all Four Cities .

    The pale is the only part of ireland the english controlled and even there they didnt have full grasp of power on the region . Surnames are not great indicators of anything tbh they also are probably norman influenced not english . Many normans them selfs became more irish than even the irish . Yes the british(english) left negative political marks on ireland but idk about the rest .


  • #40
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    Fighting leprechaun 20 wrote: »
    The pale is the only part of ireland the english controlled and even there they didnt have full grasp of power on the region . Surnames are not great indicators of anything tbh they also are probably norman influenced not english . Many normans them selfs became more irish than even the irish . Yes the british(english) left negative political marks on ireland but idk about the rest .
    The English
    Controlled all Four Cities Most of them Still Look More English Today Than Irish . Galway is the Only Irish City that Looks More Irish .


  • #41
    Fighting leprechaun 20
    Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭Fighting leprechaun 20


    please helpThank YOU wrote: »
    The English
    Controlled all Four Cities Most of them Still Look More English Today Than Irish . Galway is the Only Irish City that Looks More Irish .

    How do they look more english ?


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  • #42
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    Fighting leprechaun 20 wrote: »
    How do they look more english ?
    Like Limerick City for One Example 1194 the English Captured Limerick You Have King Johns Castle St Mary Cathedral English Settlers Came To Limerick City you have Kings Island In English Town New town Perry 1760 that is all of Limerick IS English that Just One of the Cities.


  • #43
    Avatar MIA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    please helpThank YOU wrote: »
    Galway is the Only Irish City that Looks More Irish .

    If by more Irish, you mean Spanish :pac:

    please helpThank YOU wrote: »
    Like Limerick City for One Example 1194 the English Captured Limerick You Have King Johns Castle St Mary Cathedral English Settlers Came To Limerick City you have Kings Island In English Town New town Perry 1760 that is all of Limerick IS English that Just One of the Cities.

    You're talking about the social elite, that kept very much to themselves. While I'm sure there was the odd indiscretion as it it were, to say Limerick people look more English than, say, a Mayo farmer, is ludicrous.

    And genuine question - Is English your first language?


  • #44
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Fighting leprechaun 20 wrote: »
    Also while we are on the topic is there any evidence newgrange was still actively being used during 100AD? Surely it was abounded and covered in rush grass and dirt .
    I think the emphasis would have switched to Tara by then, but just pointing out that the whole area was continuously inhabited and seen as a central gathering point over a very long period of time. As opposed to Dublin itself.
    Fighting leprechaun 20 wrote: »
    At any rate dublin existed before the vikings just not in its current state of course . Interesting theory is that dublin merged with the irish settlement of Áth Cliath . The name of dublin does not appear to be of norse origin dubh meaning black (so dublin is black pool) it seems to have old irish roots in its terminology.
    Yes, but the Vikings also adapted pre-existing local placenames when founding a new town. For example Wicklow town is of Norse origin, but there was probably a few people already living in a minor agricultural settlement or clachan around the river estuary. The name of this estuary (inbhearr dee) was adapted/corrupted into Norse to be the name of the river itself (Vartry) while the new town got its own Norse name.

    So the new town would be founded at a place of strategic importance to them, ie a safe harbour or river estuary suitable for docking longships. Whereas any existing inhabitants might have been just cattle farming in the area, and would probably have moved on.


  • #45
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    Avatar MIA wrote: »
    If by more Irish, you mean Spanish :pac:




    You're talking about the social elite, that kept very much to themselves. While I'm sure there was the odd indiscretion as it it were, to say Limerick people look more English than, say, a Mayo farmer, is ludicrous.

    And genuine question - Is English your first language?
    Limerick ,Cork Waterford, Dublin Pale and Muster Plantation Would be More English than Mayo. and then you had the Vikings Limerick ,Cork Dublin,Waterford,. And in the 12th Century you had the Norman Invasion of Ireland Dublin, Waterford, Cork, Limerick , So of Parts of Ireland Would Be More English Than Even Northern Ireland The are More Scottish.


  • #46
    Avatar MIA
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    please helpThank YOU wrote: »
    Limerick ,Cork Waterford, Dublin Pale and Muster Plantation Would be More English than Mayo. and then you had the Vikings Limerick ,Cork Dublin,Waterford,. And in the 12th Century you had the Norman Invasion of Ireland Dublin, Waterford, Cork, Limerick , So of Parts of Ireland Would Be More English Than Even Northern Ireland The are More Scottish.

    I think you're overestimating the interaction of the invaders with the locals, and underestimating the migration of individuals to/from cities.

    The vast majority of people in Irish cities are only two or three generations from being farmers... from the country.


  • #47
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    Avatar MIA wrote: »
    I think you're overestimating the interaction of the invaders with the locals, and underestimating the migration of individuals to/from cities.

    The vast majority of people in Irish cities are only two or three generations from being farmers... from the country.
    So say When Did a Genetic DNA Test of People with English/ Norman Surnames in The Four Irish Cities Dublin,Cork,Limerick,Waterford The Would All Come Back Irish DNA?


  • #48
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    please helpThank YOU wrote: »
    So say When Did a Genetic DNA Test of People with English/ Norman Surnames in The Four Irish Cities Dublin,Cork,Limerick,Waterford The Would All Come Back Irish DNA?

    No They Would Not, Same As If You Did In Mayo.


  • #49
    Fighting leprechaun 20
    Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭Fighting leprechaun 20


    Avatar MIA wrote: »
    If by more Irish, you mean Spanish :pac:




    You're talking about the social elite, that kept very much to themselves. While I'm sure there was the odd indiscretion as it it were, to say Limerick people look more English than, say, a Mayo farmer, is ludicrous.

    And genuine question - Is English your first language?

    There is nothing spanish about Galway ,if you are referring to the spanish armada there would not have been enough people on that ship to effect the population from a cultural linguistic or genetic standpoint.


  • #50
    Fighting leprechaun 20
    Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭Fighting leprechaun 20


    recedite wrote: »
    I think the emphasis would have switched to Tara by then, but just pointing out that the whole area was continuously inhabited and seen as a central gathering point over a very long period of time. As opposed to Dublin itself.

    Yes, but the Vikings also adapted pre-existing local placenames when founding a new town. For example Wicklow town is of Norse origin, but there was probably a few people already living in a minor agricultural settlement or clachan around the river estuary. The name of this estuary (inbhearr dee) was adapted/corrupted into Norse to be the name of the river itself (Vartry) while the new town got its own Norse name.

    So the new town would be founded at a place of strategic importance to them, ie a safe harbour or river estuary suitable for docking longships. Whereas any existing inhabitants might have been just cattle farming in the area, and would probably have moved on.

    It is equally possible that the vikings simply took over a pre.existing settlement town . I dont think any indigenous inhabitants would have just left the area willy-nilly.


  • #51
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Fighting leprechaun 20 wrote: »
    It is equally possible that the vikings simply took over a pre.existing settlement town . I dont think any indigenous inhabitants would have just left the area willy-nilly.
    Except that their requirements were slightly different. They needed a safe place to moor ships in bad weather, and they could not afford to leave the ships unguarded, so they had to stay close by.

    The native towns tended to form further upriver, where people and cattle could cross the river at a ford. Hence in the case of Dublin, the "black pool" longphort would have been a fair distance from the Ath Cliath ford. So the ford area may well have been a small native settlement already, but not as important as other settlements further north between the Liffey and the Boyne.

    This article talks about Viking longphorts aong the east coast. Inbhear Dee is only ever mentioned in the Annals as a base for Viking raids inland. So either it wasn't an actual settlement before, or it was too small to mention.
    In the article they say
    The place-name has not survived into the modern period, but Inber Dée was probably located somewhere near Arklow, itself a Scandinavian place-name.
    but actually the name survives in local lore and in the "norsified" name of the river Vartry.
    Arklow estuary area had its own previous gaelic name; Inbhearr Mor. As with Wicklow it was unlikely to have been much of a settlement before the longships arrived, even though there were a lot of people at the time living further inland.


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