Is stoicism a good way to live?

completedit · 25-11-2020 3:08pm #1

A lot is made about stoicism and it has a sense of nobility about it. Standing up and dusting yourself down no matter what. Facing things as they are and just embracing them. However, when you change stoicism to "stiff upper lip" it becomes a little less dignified. I associate it with a passivity and a lack of emotion when what makes us human is our very emotions. I think with all things in life, everything in equal measure. Stoicism is suitable in some scenarios and in response to some events but is found wanting in others.

Kintarō Hattori · 25-11-2020 3:11pm

To quote:

According to its teachings, as social beings, the path to eudaimonia (happiness, or blessedness) is found in accepting the moment as it presents itself, by not allowing oneself to be controlled by the desire for pleasure or by the fear of pain, by using one's mind to understand the world and to do one's part in nature's plan, and by working together and treating others fairly and justly.

Sounds alright to me.

suicide_circus · 25-11-2020 3:13pm

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

Sounds alright to me.

Me also. It is however very much out of fashion currently.

Mad_maxx · 25-11-2020 3:26pm

its a tremendous trait to aspire to , one that is becoming both rare and worse vilified

Thelonious Monk · 25-11-2020 3:31pm

Yes it's great, we should aspire to live this way. Meditations by Marcus Aurelius, the Godfather of Stoicism, is a good book to have in your collection.

begbysback · 25-11-2020 3:34pm

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Sbgpjcf-i8I

I see sheep · 25-11-2020 3:35pm

It's class. :cool:

chrissb8 · 25-11-2020 3:42pm

Stoicism for me harmful when you convince yourself that any overtures of emotion in light of moments which warrant or need it is a weakness. That you are letting yourself be a slave to the moment and "getting carried away" or in colloquial terms "being dramatic" or "moany" in some circumstances.

I think a mixture of being Stoic within the right contexts is a brilliant thing but to deny a moment within yourself, feeling it that is, is a terrible thing and detrimental mentally in the long run. No one source should be drawn from to strongly anyway, it takes a mixture to find a balance. That means being able to cry when you need to for example.

riffmongous · 25-11-2020 3:51pm

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

To quote:

Sounds alright to me.

It's awfully Communist

25-11-2020 4:03pm

It didn't really work out too well for Cato.

25-11-2020 4:21pm

I think anything taken to extremes is negative. I've looked into the area of stoicism, and I've found a wide range of habits and philosophy that I've adapted to my lifestyle, and it's helped a lot.

I think people want a manual to life that they can follow exactly, and it'll just be perfect. Stoicism isn't that.. considering the world we live in, and the manner of the lives we lead. Still, it's definitely worth a few hours research, and some serious consideration.

Pasteur. · 25-11-2020 4:24pm

Ward J. Littell wrote: »

It didn't really work out too well for Cato.

Who's he

pavb2 · 25-11-2020 4:29pm

Cato was Burt Kwouk, most famous for the Pink Panther films

Church on Tuesday · 25-11-2020 4:33pm

It's an essential trait to have and there's a lot to be said for it.

Of course, it mostly falls under the disgusting misnomer label of Toxic Masculinity these days.

Smee_Again · 25-11-2020 4:38pm

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

Of course, it mostly falls under the disgusting misnomer label of Toxic Masculinity these days.

Not sure I'd agree with that, equating stoicism with masculinity and expecting men to be stoic would fall under toxic masculinity but a man being stoic is not necessarily an example of toxic masculinity.

Pasteur. · 25-11-2020 4:39pm

Smee_Again wrote: »

Not sure I'd agree with that, equating stoicism with masculinity and expecting men to be stoic would fall under toxic masculinity but a man being stoic is not necessarily an example of toxic masculinity.

They seem unrelated to me

Church on Tuesday · 25-11-2020 4:42pm

Smee_Again wrote: »

Not sure I'd agree with that, equating stoicism with masculinity and expecting men to be stoic would fall under toxic masculinity but a man being stoic is not necessarily an example of toxic masculinity.

Of course not, that's my point, it's seen by some as a negative trait regardless.

Smee_Again · 25-11-2020 4:43pm

Pasteur. wrote: »

They seem unrelated to me

Stoicism and masculinity? Yes, I agree which is why equating the 2 is an example of toxic masculinity.

Stoicism itself is not however.

CountNjord · 25-11-2020 5:22pm

Been practicing Stoicism for the last 10 year's because I was as bit of a lefty, liberal, cuck and over sensitive.

So in 2010 being a liberal because I was looking up to these narcissistic spiritual loons who were walking contradictions, it nearly sucked the soul out of me.

So I started researching Marcus Aurelius and stoicism, it brought me away from the woke crowd and freak's.
So I began a journey, it's much easier to be Stoic while you're a single independent guy or woman.

Anyhow I really hated liberals, SJWs and the woke crowd, because they're a shower of knobs.
Lacked loyalty, had no problems sleeping around behind partners backs, and justifying bad behaviour.

I knew I didn't fit in with liberals and SJWs, so a few friends of mine who were non liberal bohemians suggested that Stoicism might be for me.

It took a while to get an empathetic balance and drop the sensitivity and outrage over what the SJWs and liberals tried to instill in the group mentality.

I'm thankful for these people who introduced me to Stoicism and get away from the dirty liberal lefty types.

I'm no longer motivated by politics or sociology, I just see the good in situations, and anything that's potentially dangerous or has the possibility of stress and anxiety I steer clear of it.

Keeping all the ducks in a row, don't say stupid things and think about the thought, action and ramifications if it goes against me.
So always think three layer's of possibilities.

I do hope my post doesn't trigger anyone,it's not my intention.

El_Duderino 09 · 25-11-2020 5:23pm

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

It's an essential trait to have and there's a lot to be said for it.

Of course, it mostly falls under the disgusting misnomer label of Toxic Masculinity these days.

The conflation of stoicism with “stiff upper lip”, “man/nut/buck-up, and generally suppressing emotions, (which you’ve just demonstrated) is very much a negative trait and not a path to successfully dealing with the ups and downs of life.

Stoicism isn’t about denying or suppressing emotions, it’s about acknowledging them and dealing with them so you control how you feel and behave rather than emotions controlling you.

Feel free to conflate it with negative traits associated with men’s behaviour if you want, but I don’t think it’s a sensible thing to do.

Rasputin11 · 25-11-2020 5:35pm

Pasteur. wrote: »

Who's he

Think he was a pal of OJ Simpson back in the mid 90s.

Dr. Colossus · 25-11-2020 6:08pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Yes it's great, we should aspire to live this way. Meditations by Marcus Aurelius, the Godfather of Stoicism, is a good book to have in your collection.

It's easy to be stoic when you command 30 legions.

Smee_Again · 25-11-2020 6:23pm

CountNjord wrote: »

Been practicing Stoicism for the last 10 year's because I was as bit of a lefty, liberal, cuck and over sensitive.

So in 2010 being a liberal because I was looking up to these narcissistic spiritual loons who were walking contradictions, it nearly sucked the soul out of me.

So I started researching Marcus Aurelius and stoicism, it brought me away from the woke crowd and freak's.
So I began a journey, it's much easier to be Stoic while you're a single independent guy or woman.

Anyhow I really hated liberals, SJWs and the woke crowd, because they're a shower of knobs.
Lacked loyalty, had no problems sleeping around behind partners backs, and justifying bad behaviour.

I knew I didn't fit in with liberals and SJWs, so a few friends of mine who were non liberal bohemians suggested that Stoicism might be for me.

It took a while to get an empathetic balance and drop the sensitivity and outrage over what the SJWs and liberals tried to instill in the group mentality.

I'm thankful for these people who introduced me to Stoicism and get away from the dirty liberal lefty types.

I'm no longer motivated by politics or sociology, I just see the good in situations, and anything that's potentially dangerous or has the possibility of stress and anxiety I steer clear of it.

Keeping all the ducks in a row, don't say stupid things and think about the thought, action and ramifications if it goes against me.
So always think three layer's of possibilities.

I do hope my post doesn't trigger anyone,it's not my intention.

I don’t think it’s working for you.

McGinniesta · 25-11-2020 6:28pm

Only if you are stoic by nature.

No harm in expressing pleasure or pain though if that's how you are.

CountNjord · 25-11-2020 6:40pm

Smee_Again wrote: »

I don’t think it’s working for you.

Well obviously you're unable to quantify the difference between the past and present, nice try and I'm glad you got some validation from your response.

A few more thanks wouldn't go astray sweetheart...

Gregor Samsa · 25-11-2020 6:45pm

Of course there's virtues in stoicism, but too much of anything isn't good for you.

However, you can see the appeal of strict, fundamentalist stoicism to the incel crowd. The world is against them, there's mysterious, nefarious forces at work that are keeping them down, holding them back from their rightful successes. It's never their fault, and they can't deal with it. So they turn inward and claim to be drawing from a reservoir of self-reliance, when really they just haven't developed the emotional maturity to deal with life. But, sad and all as it is, maybe it's better than the alternatives for them.

RobertKK · 25-11-2020 6:49pm

I live by 'things always sort themselves out eventually' which is being stoic in a way.
We can work to make things in life a little easier on ourselves, and understanding oneself, we all have the ability to change and make things better or worse for ourselves and others around us and stoicism in these situations come from an understanding rather than an inner coldness.

I remember as a teenage one night thinking in bed as I tried to get asleep that one day my parents would be dead, I did shed a tear that night at the time.
When the time came and they did die, I was desperately sad but I was not able to cry, I felt relief for them as they had been unwell, it was not being stoic but might have appeared that way.
I was brought up being told that whether one is alive or dead, life goes on. Some think they alone can do some job, but if they die they get replaced and its how it has been for always.

It is ok to be emotional and not stoic, but everyone needs to move on at some stage as life is not waiting for any of us and that is where some stoicism is needed when it comes to decisions in life.
One has to dust themselves down and move on as best as one can.

25-11-2020 7:08pm

I don't know enough about stoicism to make a fair comment. I strongly believe though in feeling our emotions rather than suppressing them and carrying on as if all is well. Our emotions aren't to be feared. If we have sadness inside then look at it, explore it, don't pretend it's not there. Think of all the ways we dismiss our feelings and experiences, little phrases like "it will be grand" "anyway" etc.

I also believe in our ability to thrive and overcome. We do have a choice. X and Y happened to you and it was awful but it doesn't have to define you. Work through the trauma and live your life. So many people are enslaved by old wounds and narratives.

It is possible to acknowledge our feelings and hurts, understand them and move on. Keeping yourself stuck in your pain, while seductive for some, is, for want of a better word, masochistic.

El_Duderino 09 · 25-11-2020 7:18pm

CountNjord wrote: »

Well obviously you're unable to quantify the difference between the past and present, nice try and I'm glad you got some validation from your response.

A few more thanks wouldn't go astray sweetheart...

I can’t help thinking that’s not a very stoical response. Your clearly not over the left, the leftys, the cucks, the woke, the disloyal, narcissists, the promiscuous the knobs, the dirty liberal leftys, the SJWs etc. You’re couching it as though you’re over all this stuff but in reality it was just a statement of how cross you are with the left. Stoicism is probably not about passive aggression.

Church on Tuesday · 25-11-2020 7:33pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

The conflation of stoicism with “stiff upper lip”, “man/nut/buck-up, and generally suppressing emotions, (which you’ve just demonstrated) is very much a negative trait and not a path to successfully dealing with the ups and downs of life.

Stoicism isn’t about denying or suppressing emotions, it’s about acknowledging them and dealing with them so you control how you feel and behave rather than emotions controlling you.

Feel free to conflate it with negative traits associated with men’s behaviour if you want, but I don’t think it’s a sensible thing to do.

I literally said nothing of the sort.

You must be wearing your shades indoors again, take them off and read my post again.

25-11-2020 8:20pm

I'm a big believer in just getting on with things if you've no way of changing a situation. Sometimes you have to walk through, not around, situations and just play the hand being dealt.

I also believe there's nothing wrong with having feelings or sometimes struggling to cope if you're overwhelmed. There's no inherent superiority in a stiff upper lip, neither is there any in allowing yourself to indulge in negative emotions.

Most people experience both paths at different points in their lives, it's only human.

25-11-2020 8:24pm

If you're interested in stoicism, but not sure, have look at Epicurus.
Some cross pollination between the two with the concept of ataraxia, although with slightly different meanings, and how to achieve, but would have been an influence on Marcus Aurelius.

Friends, inner peace, contentedness and an absence of want, freedom from irrational fears (death, god) are they key to happiness.

Good ideas on death as well.
Christians weren't mad about him for obvious reasons

cloudatlas · 25-11-2020 8:52pm

completedit wrote: »

A lot is made about stoicism and it has a sense of nobility about it. Standing up and dusting yourself down no matter what. Facing things as they are and just embracing them. However, when you change stoicism to "stiff upper lip" it becomes a little less dignified. I associate it with a passivity and a lack of emotion when what makes us human is our very emotions. I think with all things in life, everything in equal measure. Stoicism is suitable in some scenarios and in response to some events but is found wanting in others.

Are you talking about the modern conception of stoicism or the ancient philosophy Stocisim as they are two different things.

One is the modern-day concept of a personality trait or coping style which is stiff upper lip and a tough it out kind of attitude.

The second school of Greek philosophy that subsequently flourished throughout the Roman empire, and lasted for about five centuries. The stiff upper lip emotion suppression is not what Stoicism teaches, they taught that rather than attempting to suppress feelings we should not interpret them as good or bad we should modify that judgement. Stoics are more concerned with the response to those feelings and emotions rather than judging them as either good or bad (suppressing). They believe that: 'It is not things that worry us, but our judgements about things.” Which is a positive way of coping with emotions of any kind.

CBT takes some of it's framework from stoic thought.

riclad · 25-11-2020 8:55pm

I think its a good way to live in that it recognises that life is chaotic and that
theres no point in worrying about things we have no control of.
Life is not fair , bad things can happen to good people .if you do not expect
alot you will never be disappointed

Sardonicat · 25-11-2020 9:00pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It is possible to acknowledge our feelings and hurts, understand them and move on.

That is Stoicism . It's not about suppressing feelings, but rather, understanding them and not letting them take the place of rational thought.

ETA: cloud atlas puts it much better above

COVID · 25-11-2020 9:02pm

Might try it, could be a bit of craic.

cloudatlas · 25-11-2020 9:24pm

COVID wrote: »

Might try it, could be a bit of craic.

I recommend 'Lessons in Stoicism: What Ancient Philosophers Teach Us about How to live' by John Sellars as a starting point, really short and easy to read.

COVID · 25-11-2020 9:48pm

cloudatlas wrote: »

I recommend 'Lessons in Stoicism: What Ancient Philosophers Teach Us about How to live' by John Sellars as a starting point, really short and easy to read.

I'm reading it now for the half-time break at the Liverpool match.
Cracking stuff, it's defo a page-turner!

25-11-2020 10:28pm

Sardonicat wrote: »

That is Stoicism . It's not about suppressing feelings, but rather, understanding them and not letting them take the place of rational thought.

ETA: cloud atlas puts it much better above

I should have explained a little more. We are more than our emotions and more than our rational thoughts. Being connected to our emotions and exploring them is what helps us heal (if needed) and be fully self aware. They aren't less than rational thought they are just different. There are times when we act purely from emotion, that's ok. As Cloud atlas said no judgement of ourselves. Being present in them is important. It's the opposite of suppression but also different to wallowing.

They way I see it a fully realised individual is both rational and emotional with no conflict between both states but instead balance and acceptance.

Now I'm off to sit cross legged and gaze at the stars

25-11-2020 10:34pm

Also just on what Cloud Atlas wrote about the response to our emotions. I think the emotions themselves need digging in to and understanding before we look at response. CBT can be very useful but but far too many times I find people see it as a quick fix because they are unable or unwilling to sit with their emotions and do that kind of deep reflection.

CountNjord · 25-11-2020 10:43pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I can’t help thinking that’s not a very stoical response. Your clearly not over the left, the leftys, the cucks, the woke, the disloyal, narcissists, the promiscuous the knobs, the dirty liberal leftys, the SJWs etc. You’re couching it as though you’re over all this stuff but in reality it was just a statement of how cross you are with the left. Stoicism is probably not about passive aggression.

I don't really care what you think

El_Duderino 09 · 25-11-2020 11:04pm

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

I literally said nothing of the sort.

You must be wearing your shades indoors again, take them off and read my post again.

Yeah you equated stoicism with “toxic masculinity”. Among the things people often call “toxic masculinity” are the things I listed above, not stoicism.

P.s I never use the term “toxic masculinity”.

El_Duderino 09 · 25-11-2020 11:05pm

CountNjord wrote: »

I don't really care what you think

Sure. And you’re not bitter at the lefties. That’s why you mentioned and insulted them a dozen times in your opening post. lol.

CountNjord · 25-11-2020 11:07pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Sure. And you’re not bitter at the lefties. That’s why you mentioned and insulted them a dozen times in your opening post. lol.

I was dwelling on the past lol
And no I'm not bitter at the lefties lol

It's all in the past now lol

Smee_Again · 25-11-2020 11:10pm

CountNjord wrote: »

I was dwelling on the past lol
And no I'm not bitter at the lefties lol

It's all in the past now lol

Just stating it over and over doesn’t make it so.

El_Duderino 09 · 25-11-2020 11:10pm

CountNjord wrote: »

I was dwelling on the past lol
And no I'm not bitter at the lefties lol

It's all in the past now lol

Yeah you posted it 2 hours ago. Maybe you got over it since then, but you post is pretty clear.

CountNjord · 25-11-2020 11:19pm

Smee_Again wrote: »

Just stating it over and over doesn’t make it so.

Sounds ironic coming from someone called Smee_Again

CountNjord · 25-11-2020 11:21pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah you posted it 2 hours ago. Maybe you got over it since then, but you post is pretty clear.

You seem to like looking at your own reflection in muddy waters, maybe you should wait for the silt to settle then try not to stir the muddy puddle.

buried · 25-11-2020 11:22pm

Of course it is a good way to live as long as you don't let it dictate everything, you have to find a balance to it. Live in the moment in your immediate surroundings and basically handle what those surroundings throw at you and you can't go wrong. That's what stoicism is to me. Too many people nowadays want to saddle themselves to nothing but ridiculous transient far away noise in order to lose their complete $hit over that doesn't even effect them in any way shape or form. It's like all that Trump $hite from the last four-five years, people living in Ireland getting all riled up over some person thousands of miles away, who in the end is going to be gone anyways in a few weeks. F**k that noise. What good was it? Getting stressed over noise like that which ultimately all ends anyways. That's no way to live either.

.anon. · 25-11-2020 11:58pm

CountNjord wrote: »

I was dwelling on the past lol
And no I'm not bitter at the lefties lol

It's all in the past now lol

Glad to hear you're not bitter at the dirty liberal lefty types, the cucks and the freaks, whom you hate because they're a shower of knobs. I don't know why people are saying that you are bitter, tbh. There's certainly no indication of it in your post.

I've become very stoic over the years. Life very much 'is what it is'. It doesn't mean that things don't make me sad or angry - I just tend not to dwell on things that I don't have the ability (or the inclination) to change.

CountNjord · 26-11-2020 8:59am

.anon. wrote: »

Glad to hear you're not bitter at the dirty liberal lefty types, the cucks and the freaks, whom you hate because they're a shower of knobs. I don't know why people are saying that you are bitter, tbh. There's certainly no indication of it in your post.

I've become very stoic over the years. Life very much 'is what it is'. It doesn't mean that things don't make me sad or angry - I just tend not to dwell on things that I don't have the ability (or the inclination) to change.

That's it in a nutshell, just don't get emotionally attached in a negative way to the past, present and never write a script in one's head for the future.

Now again someone who is stoic can have a fleeting resentment or get annoyed with a situation, but it doesn't stick.

It rolls off, it doesn't mean we're the nicest people in the world or the saddest.
It just means that we can accept and move on.

And I'll repeat it again I no longer have a resentment towards those lefty's etc I should rephrase that they were strident activist's who were constantly looking for something to upset them.
Whether it's political, environmental or something else.

I just don't associate with them anymore..

Is stoicism a good way to live?

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