MGTOW = “men going their own way”

iptba · 27-08-2020 5:00pm #1

I know there is already a thread on men's rights, but really MGTOW is something quite specific and elsewhere on the Internet, discussions and discussion forums are very often separate.

Also, women can be interested in men's rights, just as men can be interested in women's rights and feminism, but MGTOW is pretty much just for men.

iptba · 27-08-2020 5:01pm

There is a hit piece on MGTOW in the Irish Times this week:

The rise of a toxic male separatist movement who hate women
The idea began on the fringes of the internet – so how has it made it all the way to the White House?
Wed, Aug 26, 2020, 12:38

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/the-rise-of-a-toxic-male-separatist-movement-who-hate-women-1.4339250

TheBoyConor · 27-08-2020 5:08pm

In my opinion, MGTOW is just more moderate version of the Incel movement.
Both are part of the Red Pill subculture.

iptba · 27-08-2020 5:11pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

In my opinion, MGTOW is just more moderate version of the Incel movement.

I think that's a lot of people's impression. I looked into one MGTOW forum once and it was a requirement that you had to describe a long-term relationship you had before you could post. Many if not most seemed to be people who had been married and were bitter about the divorce settlement and the like.

IAMAMORON · 27-08-2020 5:21pm

Hating women is simply taking things too far.

I would be uncomfortable with certain aspects of it, particularly misogyny . It is almost like men acting out in a contrived mode to enable some sort of hate campaign because they feel coerced by natural selection? I want to ride Kate Moss but I don't hate her because she is out of my league?

It is ok to be yourself as a man but why would you waste your time being actively cynical or your energy with ensuring you are living up to Alpha male traits, which cannot be trained or learnt, you either are or you are not. Women have the ultimate power in sexual politics, they always have had, I don't see a few disgruntled incels changing things up. Deal with it.

But there is scope for men to change this up around marriage and family law. They get hammered and it can be quite unfair from what I see. So I understand where the venom is coming from.

I actually find some of the incelosphere sidesplittingly funny, the wikicel is gas, the cartoons are a hoot.

is_that_so · 27-08-2020 5:23pm

iptba wrote: »

There is a hit piece on MGTOW in this week's Irish Times

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/the-rise-of-a-toxic-male-separatist-movement-who-hate-women-1.4339250

It came from the Guardian originally, so free to read there.

john123470 · 27-08-2020 5:30pm

https://www.goingyourownway.com/mgtow-mgtow/

I read some threads on this site. I guess you will find anything and everything. Some misogny, humour, plain silliness etc.

I think its still healthy to have alternative points of view and places to express them

They are not advocating one goes out and kills women or that all women are inherently evil house grabbers.

What they do seem advocate is that marriage is not the be all / end all. Some views will be extreme but then you'll find extremists everywhere

The overall philosophy I took from this site is that it is perfectly fine for a man to live a single and fulfilled life outside of marriage

D'aint no harm in that ..

IAMAMORON · 27-08-2020 5:35pm

iptba wrote: »

There is a hit piece on MGTOW in this week's Irish Times

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/the-rise-of-a-toxic-male-separatist-movement-who-hate-women-1.4339250

I was half way through reading the article and then realised it was being written by a woman. That makes me sexist, but I couldn't help thinking I was reading a 1980's tut tut expose on video nasties. The overall tone was quite condescending.

The fact remains that many of the Mgtow behaviours are common enough in certain parts of the world. It is not all about uncovering some internet fad in the US. As I previously posted I find the Incel wiki site really entertaining. The deadpan delivery is hilarious. That does not mean I am influenced by it, I just like reading funny or comedic things. Check out the cartoons, a blast.

iptba · 27-08-2020 5:35pm

I do think based on the discussions I have that some are more negative about women than men’s rights discussions. People could get the wrong impression about men’s rights if they were mixed together and seen as one.

BrianD3 · 28-08-2020 1:07pm

The reaction to these MGTOWs (and incels and red pillers) is interesting. The human herd is disgusted by men deemed by the herd to be of low quality - neckbeards etc.

It also feels threatened when slightly higher status men refuse to play the game of "manning up" and being a good little provider that gets married, raises children and then dies when they have outlived their usefulness.

Men are routinely shamed for
-being allegedly useless
-not being good with women/being virgins/paying for sex
-not having impressive careers
-living at home
-not being tall enough
-having a small penis
-balding
etc.

All of the above criticisms are likely to be fired at MGTOWs. You're not getting married because nobody will have you not because of choice - loser! And now you hate women because of it - you even bigger loser!

iptba · 29-08-2020 12:48am

BrianD3 wrote: »

The reaction to these MGTOWs (and incels and red pillers) is interesting. The human herd is disgusted by men deemed by the herd to be of low quality - neckbeards etc.

It also feels threatened when slightly higher status men refuse to play the game of "manning up" and being a good little provider that gets married, raises children and then dies when they have outlived their usefulness.

Men are routinely shamed for
-being allegedly useless
-not being good with women/being virgins/paying for sex
-not having impressive careers
-living at home
-not being tall enough
-having a small penis
-balding
etc.

All of the above criticisms are likely to be fired at MGTOWs. You're not getting married because nobody will have you not because of choice - loser! And now you hate women because of it - you even bigger loser!

You've reminded me of the following list: I'm not sure whether it includes all the shaming tactics you mentioned:
‘The Catalogue of Anti-Male Shaming Tactics’
https://exposingfeminism.wordpress.com/shaming-tactics/

Man with broke phone · 29-08-2020 12:54am

The lads who didnt like girls used to join the priesthood or buy a house with their male cousin or uncle (who nobody knew before they started living together).

Now they have another beard to wear.

FintanMcluskey · 29-08-2020 1:15am

Man with broke phone wrote: »

The lads who didnt like girls used to join the priesthood or buy a house with their male cousin or uncle (who nobody knew before they started living together).

Now they have another beard to wear.

Yeah absolutely, and its perfectly ok to grow that beard.

To many of my friend's and collegues have ended up in sexless, loveless marriages due to entering matrimony on the basis of some fantasy portrayed in the media.

MGTOW, while the online forum does have militants, essentially pushes the message to focus on yourself, and that marriage is not happiness, its a choice.

Man with broke phone · 29-08-2020 1:31am

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Yeah absolutely, and its perfectly ok to grow that beard.

To many of my friend's and collegues have ended up in sexless, loveless marriages due to entering matrimony on the basis of some fantasy portrayed in the media.

MGTOW, while the online forrum does have militants, essentially pushes the message to focus on yourself, and that marriage is not happiness, its a choice.

Never marry out of desparation but what if a mgtow lad met the most perfect woman of all time, could he change his mind or is he a pariah, what if he gets lonely and a girl who isnt perfect wants to try make him happy? Hes probably not perfect either but together they are happy 70 per cent of the time , 10 per cent middling, 10 percent restless and argueing the rest.

Is life black and white?

FintanMcluskey · 29-08-2020 1:44am

Man with broke phone wrote: »

Never marry out of desparation but what if a mgtow lad met the most perfect woman of all time, could he change his mind or is he a pariah, what if he gets lonely and a girl who isnt perfect wants to try make him happy? Hes probably not perfect either but together they are happy 70 per cent of the time , 10 per cent middling, 10 percent restless and argueing the rest.

Is life black and white?

Exactly. The "perfect" partner doesn't exist. Thats the message.

Its not black and white.

Its about understanding.

Understanding that when you marry someone, you are marrying them and committing to them as they are now, despite the fact they will change over the course of their lives.

So the now, will be much different in 10 years time, so your love must adapt. But it quiet possibly wont.

Throw in mortgages, bills, kids, life and things change.

If that relationship breaks down, the man usually gets screwed.

MGTOW educates men on risk analysis of relationships and marriage, which although pragmatic, is a worthwhile exercise for some, who seem to enter marriage totally clueless.

H3llR4iser · 29-08-2020 5:29am

It's a bit of a conundrum really - the media would want everyone to stand back, point and laugh at "incel", MGTOW and the whole "red pill" thing, plastering labels and accusations all over them - but the reality is that the situation is much more complex and varied, with a lot of the criticism/negativity being just straight up playschool bullying - "hey, look at the sad nerd who can't get a woman!" stuff.

A good portion of the MGTOW "movement" really is just about pointing out prejudice and injustice men often face and have to shoulder in silence, in the most classic of the "shut up, man up and take it" fashion. It's not just "bitter divorcees hating women", a lot of very good, valid arguments are out there about how your average dude might end up ruining his life by just believing that being a good man, working hard and following society "expectations" would work out for them.

I've recently run into this guy on Youtube purely by chance - I mostly just follow a few science & tech channels, I believe this one snuck in when clicking some clips linked here. He has some rough edges, but in general, his views are quite fair and planted in reality - and yet, he'd certainly be classified as "MGTOW"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_HKg5UBoig&t

(I've linked that specific video because it IS quite funny)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSRRU_x7lhg

(this one too - but check the whole channel if you got time)

29-08-2020 5:55am

I came across that guy on youtube myself, listened to some of his clips
I would have thought he has a fairly balanced view

That article almost supports the views of such a group (edit in how it attacks them), Im really beginning to steer that way myself. I dont know about the writer, but Im of the opinion that if such views were printed in an article about women who wanted to step away from traditional roles and then that they'd be taken to task about it, well I dont think that would happen, but if it did, it would be pounced on.
I don't get the issue if a man or women doesnt want to engage in a traditional relationship or one at all, it does seem guys will come off worse in many regards.

29-08-2020 6:34am

I don't see what the problem is. It seems no matter what men do, it's open to ridicule, especially by women like Laura Bates who write books titled Men Who Hate Women. She wrote the article linked above.

Nice guys are mocked. Friendzoned guys are mocked. A man whose wife cheats on them is mocked. Cuckholds are mocked. Men who can't get it up are mocked. Men with small dicks are mocked. Bald men are mocked. Men who wear make up are mocked. Men who post pictures while they're in the gym are mocked. Men who leave office doors open are mocked. Men who can't afford child support are mocked. Men being with younger women are mocked. Men who go out with Asian women are mocked. Men who use prostitutes are mocked. Sugerdaddies are mocked. Men who live at home are mocked. Men who can't drive are mocked. And now men who just want to retreat from women are mocked and accused of misogyny.

At some point, you just realise that the world is full of complete dickheads whose opinions don't matter. Do whatever makes you happy and just treat it as a victory if you piss off someone like Laura Bates.

29-08-2020 6:52am

In fairness, men posting pictures of themselves at the gym should be mocked..

ThunbergsAreGo · 29-08-2020 7:03am

is_that_so wrote: »

It came from the Guardian originally, so free to read there.

Big surprise there......

BrianD3 · 29-08-2020 11:45am

H3llR4iser wrote: »

I've recently run into this guy on Youtube purely by chance - I mostly just follow a few science & tech channels, I believe this one snuck in when clicking some clips linked here. He has some rough edges, but in general, his views are quite fair and planted in reality - and yet, he'd certainly be classified as "MGTOW"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_HKg5UBoig&t

(I've linked that specific video because it IS quite funny)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSRRU_x7lhg

(this one too - but check the whole channel if you got time)

Thanks for that, I hadn't come across him before. Seems like a wise chap with good life experience and measured views.

Lots of content about finances and saving too. I think there are huge overlaps between MGTOW and

the FIRE movement
frugality, anti consumerism
debt avoidance
F*ck you money

On the other hand I see that the UK "wedding industry" is looking for extra assistance from the government (aka the taxpayer) due to the effect Covid-19 has had on weddings. Jesus wept.

Mister Vain · 29-08-2020 11:50am

Deleted User wrote: »

In fairness, men posting pictures of themselves at the gym should be mocked..

Should women doing that be mocked too?

29-08-2020 11:51am

Mister Vain wrote: »

Should women doing that be mocked too?

No..they should be encouraged..

FintanMcluskey · 29-08-2020 12:38pm

Deleted User wrote: »

No..they should be encouraged..

Ironically thats another message in MGTOW, don't objectify women!

ancapailldorcha · 29-08-2020 5:48pm

Deleted User wrote: »

At some point, you just realise that the world is full of complete dickheads whose opinions don't matter. Do whatever makes you happy and just treat it as a victory if you piss off someone like Laura Bates.

This really is it right here. I forget the exact moment I made the decision but I had to stop clicking on the Guardian's website unless it was a link to a specific news item. There was just that much wailing from privately educated middle and upper class women for it to be worth reading for free, much less giving in to their panhandling.

As I see it, women have moved up in society. Today's generation of 20-35 year old women have much more opportunities for their careers and travels than their mothers did. The problem is that the attitude to dating has remained static. Many women still expect to be pursued, wined and dined while making no effort. Men would be rated on their ability to provide a stable income and lifestyle but of course now, they're redundant in this regard as many women will be aggressively pursuing careers so they don't really need a provider so we now see men getting rejected for all sorts of petty reasons while application of the same standard the other way arouses accusations of sexism and misogyny.

People can have whatever standards they want as long as they realise that dismissing anyone who falls short means a high probability of ending up alone. I was hoping that feminism might have shown women that they can make the first move but that doesn't appear to have happened though of course YMMV.

Richard Hillman · 29-08-2020 7:39pm

Is there a difference between MGTOW and just genuinely giving up?

I'm mid 30s. I pretty much gave up in my late 20s in terms of persuing women and then genuinely gave up about 3-4 years ago. I'm pretty much of the opinion that if you are a catch, you'll be caught early on (and that works with both sides).

Yes, OK women probably do have very high and sometimes unlikely expectations, theyll admit that themselves. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. They want somebody that will keep them happy but maybe being single and unlikely to find the right person is better than settling for somebody that doesn't match what they want.

The way I look at it as an analogy between women in the dating game and MGTOW. You have a woman and a man sitting at a pier with a fishing rod. There's nothing to be found. The man walks away grumbling. The woman stays at the pier with the fishing rod in constant hope and won't give up on it. I probably have more respect for the woman that won't give up.

Me, I walked away ages ago. No grumbles, I just accepted that there are no fish in that particular stretch of water. I went inland and started a self sufficient farm where I grow my own crops :pac:

I think the MTGOW forums and videos are just stupid. Subconsciously I think they feel that if they act that way they will attract women. It defeats the purpose of what they think they are trying to do.

I am probably what the natural MTGOW was before the nutters took over. I gave up and went my own way well before I even heard of MTGOW. I just didn't think there was a phrase for it. I just accepted that I do not fill the criteria. I'm not going to have a well paying job, I will never own a house and I'm not going to grow 3-4 inches taller :pac: I had tons of relationships with women when I was younger but the criteria changes when you're older. And I would consider myself good looking. I'm not a munter :pac:

I don't complain about it. I don't see women as some sort of enemy. I used to work in a predominantly female work place before I lost my job and made plenty of female friends there. I got on with pretty much with everybody. Some would even want to try and set me up with their friends but I gave them a solid "absolutely no chance".

JasonStatham · 29-08-2020 7:46pm

America-imported-****e.

29-08-2020 8:55pm

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Is there a difference between MGTOW and just genuinely giving up?

I am not sure it is a difference. I think MGTOW actually describes a spectrum of people and those that have simply given up are one of the points on that spectrum. Men who hate women for one reason or another is another point on that spectrum.

There are others too - and I put myself firmly in this category - who think that finding a woman and a relationship should be an event on their path through live rather than a destination of any path in life.

When you focus on a target/destination in life - things almost invariably happen as you walk that path. Some good some bad. I made a _very_ conscious shift in priorities in my mid20s where I changed some of my targets to side events and vice versa.

And finding a woman very much moved from a primary target to something I left to to the fates. Something I said "These are my new targets and goals in life and if a woman falls into step with me as I walk this new path - thats great". My primary goals became _very_ specific and were nothing to do with women. So in that sense I was MGTOW. But I was entirely open and welcoming of the prospect that women would happen to me eventually. I was just going to do nothing to contrive that.

The rest I guess is history as a few people here know already and are bored of hearing. I am in a relationship with two women and have 3 of 4 planned kids and a canine of sorts and a house and I am still pursuing my primary goals. Some more successfully than others.

Church on Tuesday · 29-08-2020 11:50pm

It's a vastly unhealthy mindset for men.

FintanMcluskey · 30-08-2020 12:31am

Deleted User wrote: »

I am in a relationship with two women and have 3 of 4 planned kids and a canine of sorts and a house and I am still pursuing my primary goals. Some more successfully than others.

Sorry for highlighting this, are you saying you are currently in a relationship with 2 women and have 4 kids?

30-08-2020 12:32am

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Sorry for highlighting this, are you saying you are currently in a relationship with 2 women and have 4 kids?

3 kids. 4 planned.

FintanMcluskey · 30-08-2020 12:34am

Deleted User wrote: »

3 kids. 4 planned.

The kids are fine.

How do you keep 2 women happy:pac:

30-08-2020 12:34am

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

The kids are fine.

How do you keep 2 women happy:pac:

carefully mostly!

It helps they are together too.

Mister Vain · 30-08-2020 8:13am

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Is there a difference between MGTOW and just genuinely giving up?

I'm mid 30s. I pretty much gave up in my late 20s in terms of persuing women and then genuinely gave up about 3-4 years ago. I'm pretty much of the opinion that if you are a catch, you'll be caught early on (and that works with both sides)

Some people are a hard sell. They might get lucky at some stage, they might not. Should you keep pursuing something that's making you miserable in the hope that you'll eventually meet someone, or is it better to pursue other things you actually enjoy and leave it to fate?

IAMAMORON · 30-08-2020 10:38am

Deleted User wrote: »

carefully mostly!

It helps they are together too.

Hi, could you please elaborate on this?

When I first read your initial post I assumed that you may have had 2 partners which ran consecutively? But from this post you are insinuating that your partners are simultaneous and even "together". Are you saying they are lovers also?

Danzy · 30-08-2020 10:40am

Mgtow is toxic for men.

It's a psychological issue.

ancapailldorcha · 30-08-2020 11:52am

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Is there a difference between MGTOW and just genuinely giving up?

I'm mid 30s. I pretty much gave up in my late 20s in terms of persuing women and then genuinely gave up about 3-4 years ago. I'm pretty much of the opinion that if you are a catch, you'll be caught early on (and that works with both sides).

Yes, OK women probably do have very high and sometimes unlikely expectations, theyll admit that themselves. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. They want somebody that will keep them happy but maybe being single and unlikely to find the right person is better than settling for somebody that doesn't match what they want.

The way I look at it as an analogy between women in the dating game and MGTOW. You have a woman and a man sitting at a pier with a fishing rod. There's nothing to be found. The man walks away grumbling. The woman stays at the pier with the fishing rod in constant hope and won't give up on it. I probably have more respect for the woman that won't give up.

Me, I walked away ages ago. No grumbles, I just accepted that there are no fish in that particular stretch of water. I went inland and started a self sufficient farm where I grow my own crops :pac:

I think the MTGOW forums and videos are just stupid. Subconsciously I think they feel that if they act that way they will attract women. It defeats the purpose of what they think they are trying to do.

I am probably what the natural MTGOW was before the nutters took over. I gave up and went my own way well before I even heard of MTGOW. I just didn't think there was a phrase for it. I just accepted that I do not fill the criteria. I'm not going to have a well paying job, I will never own a house and I'm not going to grow 3-4 inches taller :pac: I had tons of relationships with women when I was younger but the criteria changes when you're older. And I would consider myself good looking. I'm not a munter :pac:

I don't complain about it. I don't see women as some sort of enemy. I used to work in a predominantly female work place before I lost my job and made plenty of female friends there. I got on with pretty much with everybody. Some would even want to try and set me up with their friends but I gave them a solid "absolutely no chance".

I'd agree with this. I find the label to be nothing but cringe-inducing to be honest. I'd never say it aloud and have only done so once when a Canadian lad was trying to convince me that some sort of revolution was underway when I was abroad.

I gave the apps a go but to be honest, they're abysmal. I tired Bumble, where women make the first move and the result was that you'd get a greeting, return it and find yourself blocked. Last woman I matched with on Tinder was some sort of life coach type from the states. We had a nice chat. She was overweight but I wasn't bothered as she seemed cool. I googled her, she had a site and some social media profiles. Her Instagram was packed with photos of her in her underwear complaining about not getting catcalled, how men couldn't handle a "real woman", various US feministy tropes and so on.

Needless to say, I noped out of there immediately. If you do give the online thing a go lads, do your research.

I think when you hit your thirties you begin to settle down into whatever patterns you've established for yourself and become hesitant to make big changes. For many people, they're in relationships at this stage and that's fine but for people who are single, like myself, entering one becomes daunting as they become used to being masters of themselves, their time and their domain.

silverharp · 30-08-2020 12:22pm

there is something to be said finding someone when you are younger, less cynicism , building a life together from scratch, no imminent ticking biological clocks. Looking at it from a "team man" perspective if you are older say mid late thirties, find someone in their mid twenties, that's kind of how things were in the past anyway. Using a dating app to show you a dating pool of over 30 year old women seems fraught with "danger danger Will Robinson"

CageWager · 30-08-2020 12:46pm

silverharp wrote: »

there is something to be said finding someone when you are younger, less cynicism , building a life together from scratch, no imminent ticking biological clocks. Looking at it from a "team man" perspective if you are older say mid late thirties, find someone in their mid twenties, that's kind of how things were in the past anyway. Using a dating app to show you a dating pool of over 30 year old women seems fraught with "danger danger Will Robinson"

This is very true. In my experience, when dealing with women from about 28 onwards you are liable to run into a woman with “the life plan” mapped out in her head and she’s looking for a man to fill that role instead of letting a relationship happen organically. They’ll try to separate you from your hobbies and your friends and encourage you to spend your time doing things that suit her Hollywood notion of “the perfect man”.

How many times have you heard women talk amongst themselves about their new boyfriend saying things like “When I’m finished fixing him up he’ll be great”. Imagine if a guy started dating a girl and told her to lose 2 stone and change her hobbies and stop seeing her friends.. all of a sudden its abusive, controlling, domineering etc. But when the genders are reversed the narrative is that the woman knows best.

Elessar · 30-08-2020 12:49pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I think when you hit your thirties you begin to settle down into whatever patterns you've established for yourself and become hesitant to make big changes. For many people, they're in relationships at this stage and that's fine but for people who are single, like myself, entering one becomes daunting as they become used to being masters of themselves, their time and their domain.

I had to reply to this as I think you've absolutely hit the nail on the head there. People are reluctant to change their patterns and lifestyle the older they get. I'm mid 30's myself and a single guy. I was in a relationship until last year where, although not entirely why we broke up, I did feel a bit trapped and resistant to changing the single lifestyle I had before we got together (I did try to get back with her and got my heart broken but that's another story!)

I think now, I'm more reluctant to change and I see it in my single friends of the same age. I'm not saying I wouldn't give another relationship a go, with the right woman, but as you said I like being the master of myself, my time and my domain. It's almost like I'm settled into it.

The older you get the harder it is to break out of that cycle IMO.

IAMAMORON · 30-08-2020 12:56pm

I am not so sure it is fair to criticize any woman for having a " life plan ". It is completely fair enough. Give me a woman who has a plan rather than a feckless woman who doesn't any day.

CageWager · 30-08-2020 1:08pm

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I am not so sure it is fair to criticize any woman for having a " life plan ". It is completely fair enough. Give me a woman who has a plan rather than a feckless woman who doesn't any day.

When I say “life plan” I don’t mean financial goals, career goals, aspirations etc. In the context of this thread I am talking about specific preconceived notions of what a boyfriend should be like/how he should behave etc.

I’m all for a girl who has life goals and pursuits. Just don’t expect to roll into my life and start trying to change what I do to transform me into some Disney prince character.

ancapailldorcha · 30-08-2020 1:10pm

CageWager wrote: »

When I say “life plan” I don’t mean financial goals, career goals, aspirations etc. In the context of this thread I am talking about specific preconceived notions of what a boyfriend should be like/how he should behave etc.

I’m all for a girl who has life goals and pursuits. Just don’t expect to roll into my life and start trying to change what I do to transform me into some Disney prince character.

Often such criteria are never accompanied by introspection or self-appraisal in my experience. You want a wealthy, athletic scholar with the wit of a professional standup? Fine but maybe think about what you're bringing to the table.

Das Reich · 30-08-2020 1:10pm

Many years ago I saw this thing. I am sure that the peoole behind this and feminism are the same. Its much more profitable to import workers from third world countries, than make people having children, spend on their education and then wait 20 or more years before being profitable. So they make other countries wasting time and money. During my very short on this mgtow as an observer, never saw they criticizing americanism and liberalism, they talk about women but not about who is behind all this.

IAMAMORON · 30-08-2020 1:22pm

CageWager wrote: »

When I say “life plan” I don’t mean financial goals, career goals, aspirations etc. In the context of this thread I am talking about specific preconceived notions of what a boyfriend should be like/how he should behave etc.

I’m all for a girl who has life goals and pursuits. Just don’t expect to roll into my life and start trying to change what I do to transform me into some Disney prince character.

Massively agreed. I would also be very cynical about women who take on donor partners and dump them once the deed is over. But I also think that it is male prerogative to sniff this out. I dumped a partner after a long term relationship over this very reason, I got lucky all things considered.

I do also feel very sorry for men who are victims of genuine relationship breakdown which includes children. I think the law is not very fair here. I know plenty of victims paying child support and living poorly as a result. Even worse, men who are still trapped under the same roof, an awful scenario.

Richard Hillman · 30-08-2020 1:24pm

Films, TV, media have a lot to answer for in terms of people 30+. Despite what they try to portray, your odds on finding somebody in your mid to late 30s are absolutely tiny. I got hoodwinked in my 20s into thinking I'm fine now, I'm free, society is changing, there's plenty of time when I get older. That was the message that was being sent out. It was more to comfort people who were in their 30s back then that the game isn't up.

The reality is that the pool becomes absolutely tiny when you get into your 30s and all of the best ones are gone (that works for both sexes). Dating companies and Media don't like to acknowledge that reality because dating companies are big advertisers in media and obvious dating is a lucrative business for the dating companies. People still trying go give it a go when they are mid 30s and over is actually good for the economy.

ancapailldorcha · 30-08-2020 1:30pm

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Films, TV, media have a lot to answer for in terms of people 30+. Despite what they try to portray, your odds on finding somebody in your mid to late 30s are absolutely tiny. I got hoodwinked in my 20s into thinking I'm fine now, I'm free, society is changing, there's plenty of time when I get older. That was the message that was being sent out. It was more to comfort people who were in their 30s back then that the game isn't up.

The reality is that the pool becomes absolutely tiny when you get into your 30s and all of the best ones are gone (that works for both sexes). Dating companies and Media don't like to acknowledge that reality because dating companies are big advertisers in media and obvious dating is a lucrative business for the dating companies. People still trying go give it a go when they are mid 30s and over is actually good for the economy.

This would be my experience. I've read on various parts of this site and been told by friends that a man in his thirties has so many more options than one in his twenties but I've never seen that happen or seen it first hand. I work in a place which heavily employs highly educated young women and... zip. I'm not bitter, I just feel like it's worth pointing out.

Wibbs · 30-08-2020 1:32pm

CageWager wrote: »

How many times have you heard women talk amongst themselves about their new boyfriend saying things like “When I’m finished fixing him up he’ll be great”. Imagine if a guy started dating a girl and told her to lose 2 stone and change her hobbies and stop seeing her friends.. all of a sudden its abusive, controlling, domineering etc. But when the genders are reversed the narrative is that the woman knows best.

Not all women, but yeah remarkably common to see alright. Less in play when younger but by 30 it changes up a gear. I've long considered it to be a domestication process of sorts and I would reckon it's something built into our species going way back and actually what made modern humans different to previous ones, but that's a subject for another day.

Find a guy that's "fixable", domesticatable for the want of a better word and mould him into suburban husband and father material. As I noted with some tongue in cheek action in another thread on here ages ago: Now the wild oats were sown, the draw to the burbs hit like salmon mindlessly rushing upstream to the rivulet of their birth and they were looking for the domesticated kind of cereal. A man of a type that would pass muster among her peers, who would look fine in FaceBook photos of their all pine and promise scandi kitchen on tick, but would slowly go out of focus over time, to be replaced in the foreground by pics of her kids.

I have seen that play out so many times. The courtship can be rushed if it's in the thirties, quite often the woman will pull some crazy moments to see if A) he can take it and

will chase her to make sure he's doing things right. Then it's mortgages and brunch after wandering around aimlessly in Ikea being asked for a foregone opinion on light fixtures that if you gave your actual opinion would result in the silent treatment.

I've noted the men are generally content enough with this arrangement, with the usual occasional bitching about The Missus and all that, but it has no weight behind it. They're quite terrified of being left(well if you look at cultures where divorce is more common and easy it's overwhelmingly the woman who asks for them). The women (and a couple have been mates of mine) are happy enough with the domesticity and kids, but the Dear Husband is usually in the background. The fun seems to be in the taming maybe?

I dunno, but not for me. Maybe, actually no maybe about it, when I was in my 20's I'd have probably locked into the above situation easily enough. Well I couldn't get arrested in my 20's, or completely missed hints, so would have likely considered myself "so lucky" or some nonsense, but my 30's were very different on that score and I had both relationships; bad and good, and fun; bad and good.

Being 100% honest here? Caveat: the chances are very high I was selecting for a particular personality type so this is no way a reflection on the general experience. But yeah being honest after a while I found "proper" longer term relationships quite hard work. In the sense of being always on. There was always something that needed doing, or fixing. Not relaxing at all. I have found *generalisation alert again* women never bloody relax for very long and don't like men on idle time about the place. EG if you've been working like a galley slave for weeks or whatever and you get the "oh you look tired and worn out of late you should relax at the weekend" I could nearly guarantee that will last about maybe a few hours of you doing nothing of a Saturday before something will need your attention.

Then if you have kids... Kids naturally need a lot of your attention and there's always something going on, both good and bad, thankfully mostly good it seems, but you're generally always on the clock as it were.

TL;DR? After my years of generally putting it about and relationships of different sorts I increasingly found myself not being too pushed TBH. Friends with benefits and other mates in general is a lot easier of a life, at least for me anyway.

Mister Vain · 30-08-2020 1:32pm

silverharp wrote: »

there is something to be said finding someone when you are younger, less cynicism , building a life together from scratch, no imminent ticking biological clocks. Looking at it from a "team man" perspective if you are older say mid late thirties, find someone in their mid twenties, that's kind of how things were in the past anyway. Using a dating app to show you a dating pool of over 30 year old women seems fraught with "danger danger Will Robinson"

This is so true, and it makes the dating scene far less appealing. There's no real fun in it now. It's difficult to get motivated when chatting online or organising dates. There's more cynicism in general.

IAMAMORON · 30-08-2020 1:34pm

I have read online that dating apps are a farce anyway. Seemingly only 10% of males using them are being selected.

I am not sure if it was a real survey/experiment that was carried out, but I have read on several different forums about the marketing company that set up a fake " Chad " profile on a well known dating app. A picture of a model and the opening lines included having a criminal record and included disparaging sexist remarks etc. Seemingly the profile was inundated with pm's, phone numbers and requests for a hook up.

Wibbs · 30-08-2020 1:38pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

This would be my experience. I've read on various parts of this site and been told by friends that a man in his thirties has so many more options than one in his twenties but I've never seen that happen or seen it first hand.

I was that soldier that's for sure. My options in my 30's were significantly higher than in my 20's. Hell in my 40's that was still true. I did find the less I gave a damn, the more options I appeared to have. That said I was never backward in coming forward socially in general and would talk to the wall. If I were introverted, or bad with social cues then that would be a very different setup indeed. Introverted men are pretty screwed unless they do get actually lucky with a woman who is willing to push their buttons. And they exist, but in my experience they're rarer, as the dating and mating culture still puts the "chasing" on the man and the ability to read hints when they come up. I suppose it makes sense as a man with those skills is going to be an easier person to deal with and likely more successful in life. Maybe less so now as STEM and nerdy guys in general can be extremely successful in their careers.

MGTOW = “men going their own way”

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