Ethiopian Airlines Crash/ B737MAX grounding

Car99 · 10-03-2019 7:50pm

smurfjed wrote: »

There are now reports of "pencil whipping" issues with the flight control system.

Pencil whipping ? Is it being reported engineers were signing off reported defects without troubleshooting properly ?

banie01 · 10-03-2019 8:02pm

RIP to the pax and crew.
Condolences to Smurfjed and all those affected by the loss.

Would hope that any pencil whipping or similar issues are quickly ruled out and any variant safety issues quickly identified and rectified.

sparrowcar · 10-03-2019 8:28pm

smurfjed wrote: »

Flying colleague was onboard going on days off, he leaves behind a wife and two kids.

It's such a small community at times.
Condolences to you and his family.
Horrible news.

Nijmegen · 10-03-2019 8:40pm

Many condolences. I can only imagine how it must feel to get such news.

As for flying the 737Max, I think I personally would avoid it for a little while when booking. I know that’s not based on empirical data but I’d rather wait and see what the outcome of this one is. New type, coincidences do happen, but...

Spanish Eyes · 10-03-2019 8:44pm

What is pencil whipping please?

And the deceased Irish person is Michael Ryan. Was he Irish or Kenyan. Not that it matters, poor soul and his family are devastated no doubt too. RIP to all. Horrific thing.

Editing here, I think Smurfjed colleague is Kenyan. Sorry for the loss of all passengers and crew anyway. There is nothing that will comfort their families and friends right now no matter what.

Henry Ford III · 10-03-2019 8:49pm

Reports of a fatality with connections in Lahinch.

Spanish Eyes · 10-03-2019 9:30pm

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Reports of a fatality with connections in Lahinch.

Apologies for the Sun link. Condolences to all his family and friends, and everyone else too.

https://www.thesun.ie/news/3849176/irish-dad-of-two-killed-in-ethiopian-airline-crash-is-named-as-michael-ryan-from-lahinch-co-clare/

Gringo180 · 10-03-2019 9:35pm

Terrible tragedy may all on board RIP.

When you book flights can you see what aircraft model your flying on? Certainly would avoid this aircraft if possible.

Grandeeod · 10-03-2019 9:41pm

Do Ryanair have this model on order/delivery?

Spanish Eyes · 10-03-2019 9:43pm

Grandeeod wrote: »

Do Ryanair have this model on order/delivery?

I believe a pp said yes, but a modified version I think.

circular flexing · 10-03-2019 9:46pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I believe a pp said yes, but a modified version I think.

Slightly modified to fit as many people in as possible

https://thepointsguy.com/news/ryanairs-first-737-max-200-rolls-out-hellacious-seat-map/

I just realised I'm due to fly this type (not with Ryanair) on Wednesday - not sure how I feel.

Spanish Eyes · 10-03-2019 9:54pm

Am sure that Captains and FOs will want to know more about this now.

Boeing may be in a bit of bother here. As will any Boeing purchaser/ lessee too.

Phil.x · 10-03-2019 10:08pm

circular flexing wrote: »

Slightly modified to fit as many people in as possible

https://thepointsguy.com/news/ryanairs-first-737-max-200-rolls-out-hellacious-seat-map/

I just realised I'm due to fly this type (not with Ryanair) on Wednesday - not sure how I feel.

New planes sound truly dreadful, but if these are just for short hop flights, dublin/london and no further well it could be bearable, especially for people over 6 foot.

RIP to the crew and passengers.

circular flexing · 10-03-2019 10:11pm

Phil.x wrote: »

New planes sound truly dreadful, but if these are just for short hop flights, dublin/london and no further well it could be bearable, especially for people over 6 foot.

RIP to the crew and passengers.

I’ve done 2 hour flights with 29” pitch and it would put me completely off flying if this became the norm. I’m just under 6ft.

RIP to all passengers and crew.

Spanish Eyes · 10-03-2019 10:25pm

Maybe it is a good thing that most passengers are not nerds regarding the planes they fly in.

Do people research this before booking?

Harpy · 10-03-2019 10:29pm

Nijmegen wrote: »

Many condolences. I can only imagine how it must feel to get such news.

As for flying the 737Max, I think I personally would avoid it for a little while when booking. I know that’s not based on empirical data but I’d rather wait and see what the outcome of this one is. New type, coincidences do happen, but...

How would you know which airlines use these?
Booking flights to America tomorrow and wouldn't be the best flyer anyway, I googled and doesn't look like aerlingus fly these planes is that correct?

10-03-2019 10:37pm

Harpy wrote: »

How would you know which airlines use these?
Booking flights to America tomorrow and wouldn't be the best flyer anyway, I googled and doesn't look like aerlingus fly these planes is that correct?

Aer Lingus use the Airbus A330 for transatlantic flights. They have very few Boeing aircraft and certainly not the new type.

I believe Norwegian use them though?

jimbis · 10-03-2019 10:43pm

Flying Fox wrote: »

Aer Lingus use the Airbus A330 for transatlantic flights. They have very few Boeing aircraft and certainly not the new type.

I believe Norwegian use them though?

Yup Norwegian use the 737-8max for dublin to Stewart (New York).
Flew it this time last year and despite having a 20 year fear of flying yet an absolute love of aviation I'd still fly on it tomorrow.

Tenger · 10-03-2019 10:46pm

B737 and A320 are currently the most common aircraft in service worldwide. They are very successful reliable, efficient designs.
B737MAX and A320neo are the new updated versions of these aircraft.
There are 350 B737MAX in service and over 650 A320neo.

Ryanair have a lot of these B737s on order. Norwegian already have them.
Easyjet have A320neo's in service. Aer Lingus have A321neo's on order.
Most large airlines have one or the other in service with one of the updated versions on order.

There have been 2 crashes with the B737MAX in the last 6 months. The 1st is still under investigation but in response Boeing have issed guidance on addressing "erroneous cockpit readings"

theguzman · 10-03-2019 10:49pm

Its very early to tell but I wonder if it is a case of too much automation in the cockpit contributing to this? Fly by wire is all well in good until things go wrong.

lomb · 10-03-2019 10:52pm

Im flying later this week will be checking out if its a Max and avoiding and rebooking if is. Sounds like a Comet type situation to me. These new planes are way too computerised ,aviation is simple with designs tested over many years there is no need to save 5 euro per ticket in a race to the bottom. Aviation costs what it costs.
If the air speed indicator goes berserk its a simple matter of selecting alt and if that doesnt work setting a known power setting with a known trim and attitude(ive a ppl). Whereas in these aircraft its a death spiral with a load of bongs. That and fitting 2 engines instead of 3 or 4 is crazy in case of bird strikes, dual failures etc.

STB. · 10-03-2019 10:53pm

Grandeeod wrote: »

Do Ryanair have this model on order/delivery?

Ryanair is preparing to deploy its very first MAX jet on routes to Tenerife and Thessaloniki from London-Stansted on 14 March.... ie this coming week. 50 more being delivered by end of year.

10% of their fleet will be the 737 Max 8 HC by end of next year. The HC mod is just a tag signifying capacity for extra passengers.

https://airlinerwatch.com/ryanair-to-station-its-first-boeing-737-max-8-hc-in-london-stansted/

Spanish Eyes · 10-03-2019 10:55pm

Ah when your number is up, it's up.

I doubt any Captain takes off with the idea that his/her flight will end in disaster.

(the suicide Germanwings flight excepted)

theguzman · 10-03-2019 11:01pm

Norwegian are flying the 737-MAX to America and at least Wow air are operating via Iceland, Ryanair's 737-800 to the Canary islands would spend more time over water than Wow do going via Iceland. The 737 is a horrible idea for Transatlantic anyway as it is just to small and pokey, the 757 is barely tolerable never mind the 737.

Shedite27 · 10-03-2019 11:02pm

What's the likelihood of a grounding here? I remember Boeing grounding the Dreamliner a few years back when they investigated an issue that hadn't caused any causalties, surely 2 crashes with a lot of similarities and 330 deaths warrants it.

And secondly, if it were to happen, who are the most impacted operating out of Ireland?

lintdrummer · 10-03-2019 11:02pm

theguzman wrote: »

Fly by wire is all well in good until things go wrong.

737 Max isn't FBW.

lomb wrote: »

If the air speed indicator goes berserk its a simple matter of selecting alt and if that doesnt work setting a known power setting with a known trim and attitude(ive a ppl). Whereas in these aircraft its a death spiral with a load of bongs. That and fitting 2 engines instead of 3 or 4 is crazy in case of bird strikes, dual failures etc.

In our QRH we have a table of power settings and pitch attitudes that will maintain safe level flight, climb or descent, if you have unreliable airspeed indications. It's exactly the same principle you would use in your single engine. It's pure nonsense suggesting that such a situation would lead to "a death spiral with a load of bongs".
Also, 2 engines is plenty. If you have a bird strike that takes out 2 engines (Sully style) then in all likelihood it would have taken out 4 if you had them. Any other "dual failure" is so statistically unlikely as to be considered practically impossible.
I'm surprised you're comfortable flying a single if you really feel that paranoid about modern jets.

kevinandrew · 10-03-2019 11:06pm

This is terribly sad news for all involved, my condolences to those affected.

While we still don't know the details, this is at the very least very concerning for Boeing and the 737 MAX programme. Another crash of a new build airframe of the same type would be a worry for any manufacturer and operator, only natural some people start to feel uneasy about the aircraft as well.

I hope the investigation discovers the reason quickly, offering some kind of closure to everyone involved and hopefully making aviation that little bit safer in doing so.

thecretinhop · 10-03-2019 11:06pm

A message recieved from a pilot friend who was at the holding point when the doomed aircraft took off, he says that the takeoff seemed normal but shortly after the aircraft declared an emergency stating unreliable airspeed and difficulty controlling the aircraft

Grandeeod · 10-03-2019 11:09pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Ah when your number is up, it's up.

I doubt any Captain takes off with the idea that his/her flight will end in disaster.

(the suicide Germanwings flight excepted)

True enough.

I only have an interest in aviation and fly a lot. Like a lot of people. But I do think there may be some issue with this model. (a personal opinion and not trying to start any conspiracy theories.) Two crashes on take off in a few months could be coincidence and could also be an issue. One investigation ongoing and another about to begin. All we have so far is same model and similar flight time for accident. Gonna watch this one very closely as we have lots of this aircraft type coming on stream very close to home. Hoping Boeing are giving this the closet of attention for peoples sake and not for the sake of any Corporate crap.

Bussywussy · 10-03-2019 11:26pm

lintdrummer wrote: »

737 Max isn't FBW.

.

I think theres a few FBW features on the max,roll spoilers being one

MCAS issue again?? Could be serious for Boeing if it is

Spanish Eyes · 10-03-2019 11:35pm

Check out https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/619272-ethiopian-airliner-down-africa.html

Those who know about that forum will know about it. Those who don't, please check it out.

Not saying that posts here are not good or anything, but that forum is International.

10-03-2019 11:36pm

RIP to all involved.

Spanish Eyes · 10-03-2019 11:54pm

I may be wrong but the Lion Air crash sounds similar?

Golfwidow · 11-03-2019 12:12am

Turkish Airlines TK1977 Istanbul to Dublin is a B737 Max 8 AC.

STB. · 11-03-2019 12:22am

Bussywussy wrote: »

I think theres a few FBW features on the max,roll spoilers being one

MCAS issue again?? Could be serious for Boeing if it is

Yes. It certainly does.

After the Lion Air flight went down, the FAA and the European regulators didn't see it as compulsory that additional training was required for MCAS. ANAC didnt agree.

There's an article on the NYTimes on MCAS and behaviour with erroneous sensor data. It makes for startling reading who was making the choices about what pilots need to know and not know about MCAS behaviour on the Max (for money saving purposes no doubt). More startling is the claims that the system behaviour wasn't tested with erroneous data!

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/03/world/asia/lion-air-plane-crash-pilots.html

Any pilots have an opinion on this (the training aspect) ?

Shn99 · 11-03-2019 1:31am

Unconfirmed reports that Chinese authorities have asked local airlines to ground the MAX jets
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2019-03-10/china-asks-local-airlines-to-ground-boeing-737-max-caijing-says

Shn99 · 11-03-2019 2:08am

Cayman Airways has announced it will suspend 737MAX operations
https://www.caymanairways.com/mobile/CALsuspendsMax8Operations

circular flexing · 11-03-2019 2:41am

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Maybe it is a good thing that most passengers are not nerds regarding the planes they fly in.

Do people research this before booking?

The data is now more easily available so it's become a lot easier to be informed.

NH2013 · 11-03-2019 2:53am

Looks like the Chinese have grounded the 737 MAX, also fairly substantiated reports by a 777 pilot waiting at the runway behind the 737 that crashed over on PPRuNe that the Mayday indicated that they'd lost their Airspeed indications and were having difficulty controlling the aircraft, similar to Lionair 610.

Jude13 · 11-03-2019 5:43am

As stated earlier China's CAA has grounded all 737 Max jets.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-grou ... cle_inline
It is behind a paywall

Unearthly · 11-03-2019 7:42am

Ethiopian airlines to

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/11/ethiopia-airline-crash-china-grounds-boeing-737-max-8-jets-in-wake-of-disaster

Some airlines confirmed they have no intention of grounding for now

billy few mates · 11-03-2019 8:49am

I can see something like this Southwest mod becoming an AD...
https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safety/southwest-airlines-is-adding-new-angle-of-attack-indicators-to-its-737-max-fleet/

I hadn't realised that all mention or reference to the MCAS system had been deliberately omitted from the FCOMs, I thought it was the case that it hadn't been highlighted sufficiently or not properly picked up on

I remember when the B737 classics started appearing first, we used to get a lot of crews reporting stab trim runaway on take off but it was actually just the new speed trim function of the Classic which wasn't on the -200s. The crews were aware of the feature but because it rarely ever kicked in it seemed to catch them by surprise when they first encountered it for real...

murphaph · 11-03-2019 9:21am

I won't be flying on these aircraft until I know what caused two brand new ones to crash months apart. Two crashed out of 350 delivered is a very poor statistic for a modern airliner I would have thought. RIP to all who perished.

STB. · 11-03-2019 9:30am

billy few mates wrote: »

I hadn't realised that all mention or reference to the MCAS system had been deliberately omitted from the FCOMs, I thought it was the case that it hadn't been highlighted sufficiently or not properly picked up on

Boeing maintain that it was documented in maintenance manuals for the plane.

From articles I have read, pilots may not have been aware of the MCAS as the decision was made not to tell them/train them. This seem to be the case with the Lion Air where the MCAS pitched the nose down 26 times in reaction to bad sensor data, so it didn't matter what the pilot did with the yoke, without flipping off the stabilizer cutout switches.

Nijmegen · 11-03-2019 10:27am

STB. wrote: »

Boeing maintain that it was documented in maintenance manuals for the plane.

From articles I have read, pilots may not have been aware of the MCAS as the decision was made not to tell them/train them. This seem to be the case with the Lion Air where the MCAS pitched the nose down 26 times in reaction to bad sensor data, so it didn't matter what the pilot did with the yoke, without flipping off the stabilizer cutout switches.

Lot of controversy over whether it is MCAS (we won't know till we know). But to the point of the aircraft behaving in an unexpected way generally (whether it had an effect here or not) I guess it speaks to the challenge between feeding pilots every bit of information that might be relevant vs burying them in so much the important stuff gets lost.

Bad day for the MAX program, and given the general public's level of insight probably the 737 generally. They'll have to do something quick to get confidence back.

bryangiggsy · 11-03-2019 11:09am

Does Norwegian Air fly the Max from Dublin to Providence daily ? I see one parked up every day on the Swords Rd just inside the fence between 10 & 2

What was the cause of the Lion Air crash ? Was it faulty readings or sensors which meant the plane was going too fast ?

Tks

billy few mates · 11-03-2019 11:13am

STB. wrote: »

Boeing maintain that it was documented in maintenance manuals for the plane.

From articles I have read, pilots may not have been aware of the MCAS as the decision was made not to tell them/train them.

Pilots don't read maintenance manuals.

cnocbui · 11-03-2019 11:17am

lintdrummer wrote: »

737 Max isn't FBW.

In our QRH we have a table of power settings and pitch attitudes that will maintain safe level flight, climb or descent, if you have unreliable airspeed indications. It's exactly the same principle you would use in your single engine. It's pure nonsense suggesting that such a situation would lead to "a death spiral with a load of bongs".
Also, 2 engines is plenty. If you have a bird strike that takes out 2 engines (Sully style) then in all likelihood it would have taken out 4 if you had them. Any other "dual failure" is so statistically unlikely as to be considered practically impossible.
I'm surprised you're comfortable flying a single if you really feel that paranoid about modern jets.

With MCAS on and making the decisions, it might as well be fly-by-wire. I read somewhere that the stabiliser can overpower the elevator, giving it authority. The MCAS therefore has more input than the pilot does. Pilots are trying to arm wrestle a Terminator.

So much seems wrong about the 737 Max and the MCAS that I suspect the final findings will be that the FAA has become embedded in Boeing and have been giving them too much of what they want and not enough independent oversight.

L1011 · 11-03-2019 11:18am

Providence is a MAX8 route.

The Lion Air crash appears to have been a maintenance issue causing faulty angle of attack readings; which then caused the MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) to repeatedly put the airframe in to a dive. If this is the case, blame probably has to be to split - the airframe shouldn't have been flown, but MCAS should not have caused it to dive either. However its not fully investigated yet.

thebond · 11-03-2019 11:18am

Ryanair expected to make annoucement later about new orders of MAX, hopefully they will suspend order until crash investigation completed etc

Ethiopian Airlines Crash/ B737MAX grounding

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