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IE to lease UK fleet?

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    #62
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    Has hual stock been completely ruled out.


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    #63
    Ireland trains
    Registered Users Posts: 371 ✭✭Ireland trains


    I was reading a NTA document and it said that they will either order more diesel coaches (ICR) or second hand trains or potentially both
    Note this is not exact wording.

    Also said for the DART expansion programme there could be some platform changes.
    Could this mean more passing loops to allow intercity and commuter train to overtake.
    Finally as it was announced yesterday that IÉ had carried 48 million passengers last year, could anyone say (maby GM228) how many people travelled on the Dublin to Cork train in 2018 and how much people travelled on rosslare line either in 2017 or 2018.
    Cheers


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    #64
    Dats me
    Registered Users Posts: 333 ✭✭Dats me


    GM228 for the Bi-Mode fleet that was approved is this the big new order for DART stock?

    If so, is it going to be the EMU with a diesel engine car in the middle configuration that was talked about on some other thread (sorry for lack of specifics, can't find it now and I'm not an expert). Or could you give any info on exactly the type of "Bi-Mode" that they're ordering, I'm very interested!


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    #65
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭Isambard


    IE 222 wrote: »
    Has hual stock been completely ruled out.
    answer must be yes due to lack of runround facilites nowadays


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    #66
    Ireland trains
    Registered Users Posts: 371 ✭✭Ireland trains


    As passengers numbers rise again (48million) and no extra trains for a long times how crowded are the trains getting at peak times, especially intercity which passenger numbers are up 12% to 12.4m

    Does anyone have the individual route passenger numbers on intercity services (eg Dub-Cork/Galway/belfast/waterford)

    In 2017 Dub-Cork carried 3.15M and based on my calculations on an increase of 12% the service carried 3.5M in 2018.


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    #67
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    IE 222 wrote: »
    Has hual stock been completely ruled out.

    Yes.


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    #68
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Dats me wrote: »
    GM228 for the Bi-Mode fleet that was approved is this the big new order for DART stock?

    If so, is it going to be the EMU with a diesel engine car in the middle configuration that was talked about on some other thread (sorry for lack of specifics, can't find it now and I'm not an expert). Or could you give any info on exactly the type of "Bi-Mode" that they're ordering, I'm very interested!

    There was talk of the middle car set up, and Engineers Ireland even produced a picture of GAs new 755 which has that set up, but there is no certainty in what option will be taken until the procurement process is undertaken.

    What I do know is that the NTA and IE management and engineers have personally looked at the 800s in the UK and were impressed by them.


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    #69
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    GM228 wrote: »
    There was talk of the middle car set up, and Engineers Ireland even produced a picture of GAs new 755 which has that set up, but there is no certainty in what option will be taken until the procurement process is undertaken.

    I would be interested to see how the whole GA situation works out, there is a lot of ambition of what they are doing so you have to give them credit for that, but there is also a lot that could go wrong and if it does, it really will be sit back and eat popcorn time. Wouldn't want to be going down that road until we see how that pans out.
    What I do know is that the NTA and IE management and engineers have personally looked at the 800s in the UK and were impressed by them.

    Lets hope they go for a better interior spec than specified by the UK DFT if they ever go down that road, because honestly in my opinion whilst they are not bad trains, they are not exactly the height of comfort either and are going to be expensive to boot due to the crazy way they are procured.


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    #70
    goingnowhere
    Registered Users Posts: 4,142 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    Lets be really straight about this, we are looking for a 29k but

    Diesel electric transmission
    Outer coaches with a large diesel engine 600-700kw
    A coach with a transformer and rectifier (only need to add the transformer and AC pantograph if we go with 25kv)
    A coach with the traction gear and rheostats and DC pantograph
    traction motors split across the two centre coaches
    Single toilet
    Probably going to need to be aluminum body to get the weight down
    Also need some of the new light weight inner frame bogies
    You can remove the engines in the future and sub in a battery if you like to recover energy


    Weight is the enemy here so got to cut as much out as possible as the performance is going to suck compared to a real DART and probably will have a hard time keeping up with a 29k. The transformer for one is not needed until 25kV appears and thats several tons.


    The UK FLIRT has its engines in the middle to meet a contract requirement we can't afford to loose 10-12 m of coach space when we are already stuck with 165m platforms, underfloor is the best option as we don't have to throw away something. There is a huge amount of dead space on those units at the cab ends, completely unsuited to commuter use. The engines have a finite life so will get junked sometime regardless.


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    #71
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,672 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    GM228 wrote: »
    There was talk of the middle car set up, and Engineers Ireland even produced a picture of GAs new 755 which has that set up, but there is no certainty in what option will be taken until the procurement process is undertaken.

    What I do know is that the NTA and IE management and engineers have personally looked at the 800s in the UK and were impressed by them.

    Seriously they are impressed by IEPs, they are terrible in DMU mode. Would even say 22s have much better traction. Then again NTA and IE never buy anything decent prehaps they are impressed because they will be grand doing 80mph.

    800s are great on EMU.


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    #72
    Dats me
    Registered Users Posts: 333 ✭✭Dats me


    goingnowhere wrote: »
    Lets be really straight about this, we are looking for a 29k but

    Diesel electric transmission
    Outer coaches with a large diesel engine 600-700kw
    A coach with a transformer and rectifier (only need to add the transformer and AC pantograph if we go with 25kv)
    A coach with the traction gear and rheostats and DC pantograph
    traction motors split across the two centre coaches
    Single toilet
    Probably going to need to be aluminum body to get the weight down
    Also need some of the new light weight inner frame bogies
    You can remove the engines in the future and sub in a battery if you like to recover energy


    Weight is the enemy here so got to cut as much out as possible as the performance is going to suck compared to a real DART and probably will have a hard time keeping up with a 29k. The transformer for one is not needed until 25kV appears and thats several tons.


    The UK FLIRT has its engines in the middle to meet a contract requirement we can't afford to loose 10-12 m of coach space when we are already stuck with 165m platforms, underfloor is the best option as we don't have to throw away something. There is a huge amount of dead space on those units at the cab ends, completely unsuited to commuter use. The engines have a finite life so will get junked sometime regardless.


    Why waste time and huge amounts of money on these yokes then instead of just electrifying the new DART lines and getting proper EMUs off the shelf?


    Am I wrong that electrification is really cheap? Irish Rail's 2030 vision doc said €500k/km, if there's lead time of a couple of years for new rolling stock this should be easily done. I can only assume I'm missing something?


    I really appreciate the replies btw, very insightful.


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    #73
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Seriously they are impressed by IEPs, they are terrible in DMU mode. Would even say 22s have much better traction. Then again NTA and IE never buy anything decent prehaps they are impressed because they will be grand doing 80mph.

    800s are great on EMU.

    Are they though? Yes they had teething problems especially with overheating due to the little space available, but have they not settled down somewhat.


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    #74
    goingnowhere
    Registered Users Posts: 4,142 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    Dats me wrote: »
    Why waste time and huge amounts of money on these yokes then instead of just electrifying the new DART lines and getting proper EMUs off the shelf?


    Am I wrong that electrification is really cheap? Irish Rail's 2030 vision doc said €500k/km, if there's lead time of a couple of years for new rolling stock this should be easily done. I can only assume I'm missing something?


    I really appreciate the replies btw, very insightful.

    This is the political solution to kick the can down the road, commit to nothing

    It is obvious the electrification could be started and completed for Maynooth in parallel with any new train ordered


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    #75
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Dats me wrote: »
    Why waste time and huge amounts of money on these yokes then instead of just electrifying the new DART lines and getting proper EMUs off the shelf?

    Because they won't be limited just to electric lines, they will be more versatile.


    Dats me wrote: »
    Am I wrong that electrification is really cheap? Irish Rail's 2030 vision doc said €500k/km, if there's lead time of a couple of years for new rolling stock this should be easily done. I can only assume I'm missing something?


    I really appreciate the replies btw, very insightful.

    That was from a report produced 8 years ago which gave an estimated price based on recent project builds, being 2011 probably based on UK projects, but it was well off the mark.

    That would equate to around €16M for the Maynooth and M3 lines, but, the NDP has stated that project will cost €300M, so is more likely to be a little over €9M per KM. I believe at the time the report should have stated €5M, not €0.5M.


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    #76
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    goingnowhere wrote: »
    It is obvious the electrification could be started and completed for Maynooth in parallel with any new train ordered

    That is the plan. It is already committed to and is part of the NDP.

    Planning and design work is already under way and the actual construction work for electrification of the Maynooth line is predicted to start in 2021 and should be completed in time for the new stock.


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    #77
    Dats me
    Registered Users Posts: 333 ✭✭Dats me


    GM228 wrote: »
    That is the plan. It is already committed to and is part of the NDP.

    Planning and design work is already under way and the actual construction work for electrification of the Maynooth line is predicted to start in 2021 and should be completed in time for the new stock.

    That sounds good, thank you.

    Will these new Bi-Mode trains run on the electrified Maynooth line or new EMUs?

    What's the plan for Kildare/Hazelhatch? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say Phoenix Park Tunnel can't be electrified?

    With city-centre resignalling done this new DART stuff could be really nice


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    #78
    Ireland trains
    Registered Users Posts: 371 ✭✭Ireland trains


    Will any darts from hazelhatch run into heuston


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    #79
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,844 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    It's claimed the PPT can't be electrified. It uses to be claimed it couldn't take passenger services, so some salt should be taken with that claim.

    Low roof electrification options exist, they still need headroom but not as much

    Bi-mode would work around that issue


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    #80
    goingnowhere
    Registered Users Posts: 4,142 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    If the Maynooth line will be electrified before the new fleet arrives why is a hybrid even needed.

    New trains go on the Maynooth line, a whole pile of 29k's now available to improve services on the Northern line and elsewhere.

    Since we have no boots on the ground and no tenders for the Maynooth electrification its clear the politicians are playing the usual game with us


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    #81
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,672 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    GM228 wrote: »
    Are they though? Yes they had teething problems especially with overheating due to the little space available, but have they not settled down somewhat.

    Not paid much attention recently but they really struggled around 100 mph on diesel. Doubt that's changed plus over here they would be more reliant on diesel than overhead which is another factor. Apart from West Country (mayble bit of Wales) the majority is/will be electrified.

    3 engines dragging 5 car's is a problem particularly with none in front/rear.


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    #82
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Not paid much attention recently but they really struggled around 100 mph on diesel. Doubt that's changed plus over here they would be more reliant on diesel than overhead which is another factor. Apart from West Country (mayble bit of Wales) the majority is/will be electrified.

    I don't know the specifics, but there was talk that Hitachi downrated the engines on the 800s because the contract they signed with the DFT was based on having a certain number in service each day and downrating the engines was one way of helping ensure that, which is rather sneaky if you ask me.

    I believe those diesel engines can go over 900bhp but they are down at around 750bhp.


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    #83
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,672 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    devnull wrote: »
    I don't know the specifics, but there was talk that Hitachi downrated the engines on the 800s because the contract they signed with the DFT was based on having a certain number in service each day and downrating the engines was one way of helping ensure that, which is rather sneaky if you ask me.

    I believe those diesel engines can go over 900bhp but they are down at around 750bhp.

    Interesting, no expert but still a poor engine choice overall, hopefully any potential order will include a more powerful engine considering its importance.


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    #84
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Interesting, no expert but still a poor engine choice overall, hopefully any potential order will include a more powerful engine considering its importance.

    According to wikipedia the downrating is bigger than I thought and is from 940bhp to 750bhp.

    That is a fairly big performance reduction and would explain why they struggle on diesel and are limited to 100mph that they reach slowly, rather than 125mph that they can reach under electricity.


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    #85
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    goingnowhere wrote: »
    If the Maynooth line will be electrified before the new fleet arrives why is a hybrid even needed.

    Because trains go beyond Maynooth and the limits of electrification.


    goingnowhere wrote: »
    New trains go on the Maynooth line, a whole pile of 29k's now available to improve services on the Northern line and elsewhere.

    You need to look at the broader picture, by the time the initial order is delivered, tested, commissioned and fully in service the 2600s will be nearing 35 years and due for replacement, the 29000s will be cascaded to Cork and Limerick.

    The 8100s will also be near to 45 years old and will be retired when another batch of new electric only trains arrive.


    goingnowhere wrote: »
    Since we have no boots on the ground and no tenders for the Maynooth electrification its clear the politicians are playing the usual game with us

    Boots will not be on the ground for another 2 years and it's a bit early for tenders. Design and planning work is already underway by IE/NTA. The NTA has confirmed the project is going ahead, not the politicians, and they blamed the government for delaying the project up to now.


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    #86
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    L1011 wrote: »
    It's claimed the PPT can't be electrified. It uses to be claimed it couldn't take passenger services, so some salt should be taken with that claim.

    Low roof electrification options exist, they still need headroom but not as much

    Bi-mode would work around that issue

    And yet electrification of the tunnel and the line as far as Celbridge is part of the 2018 NDP.

    The Bray head tunnels have limited clearances which in parts are less than the PPT and no problems there, clearances in the tunnel were improved when work was undertaken to enable the PPT services.


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    #87
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Not paid much attention recently but they really struggled around 100 mph on diesel. Doubt that's changed plus over here they would be more reliant on diesel than overhead which is another factor. Apart from West Country (mayble bit of Wales) the majority is/will be electrified.

    3 engines dragging 5 car's is a problem particularly with none in front/rear.

    They struggled due to teething problems, they suffered from constant overheating due in part to the limited space afforded by the UK loading gauge. There were times when they were regularly alternating between 2 or even 1 engine propelling the train whilst awaiting the others to cool down, I believe this has been improved.

    Also it's not as simple as 3 engines for 5 cars, other factors comes into play.


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    #88
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    devnull wrote: »
    I don't know the specifics, but there was talk that Hitachi downrated the engines on the 800s because the contract they signed with the DFT was based on having a certain number in service each day and downrating the engines was one way of helping ensure that, which is rather sneaky if you ask me.

    I believe those diesel engines can go over 900bhp but they are down at around 750bhp.
    devnull wrote: »
    According to wikipedia the downrating is bigger than I thought and is from 940bhp to 750bhp.

    That is a fairly big performance reduction and would explain why they struggle on diesel and are limited to 100mph that they reach slowly, rather than 125mph that they can reach under electricity.

    All IEPs have 938hp engines. The 800s have had that reduced to 750hp by way of software control by reducing their RPM, this was to reduce maintenance costs and extend exam periods.

    It is also worth noting that simply saying they have X amount of 750hp engines etc is not an accurate way to determine their ability. For example a 5 car 800 has a better power/weight ratio than a 5 car 22000 by about 2hp per tonne, but, the only true way to compare their ability is to work out the tractive effort and compare them. Anyone with those figures can do a true comparison.


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    #89
    Dats me
    Registered Users Posts: 333 ✭✭Dats me


    Is planning etc under way for the Kildare line too?

    The 800s are an intercity train though from what I can see, if as above the performance of these things will suffer for the extra utility then new EMUs should be the real workhorse of the Dublin area? And then this Bi-Mode order should be a small one for operational flexibility, such as running "DARTs" to Newbridge

    Not trying to be belligerent or anything, I just don't see the logic in the new DART stock being mainly bi-mode instead of EMU, surely it should be an 80/20 EMU/Bi mix or something

    Thanks again for the replies


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    #90
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭Isambard


    Has anyone photoshopped the UK units into IE livery?


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    #91
    London Correspondent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26 ✭London Correspondent


    Electrification of the Phoenix Park tunnels should not be such an issue. The technology now exists and has been implemented to use a solid metal strip bolted to the roof of the tunnel rather than wire to electrify tunnels. This has been implemented on the Thameslink line between Farringdon and the Canal Tunnels that emerge after Kings Cross. A similar approach could be used in the Phoenix Park tunnels but from memory I believe the clearance has been improved?


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