Roundabout Query

Mankyspuds · 07-01-2019 2:28pm #1

Quick question about a roundabout and something I see everyday.

The roundabout in question is at Dundrum to head northbound on the M50.

If you are driving down from Sandyford junction, it is two lanes all the way down, when you get the roundabout it is still two lanes all the way round. My question is: I see cars coming down on the left lane and going all the way around and exit on the 2nd exit(under the bridge and onto the Grange road roundabout) Is this allowed?? or is both lanes for turning right and the left is straight only on to the M50 only?

Thanks in advance

tom1ie · 07-01-2019 2:33pm

Mankyspuds wrote: »

Quick question about a roundabout and something I see everyday.

The roundabout in question is at Dundrum to head northbound on the M50.

If you are driving down from Sandyford junction, it is two lanes all the way down, when you get the roundabout it is still two lanes all the way round. My question is: I see cars coming down on the left lane and going all the way around and exit on the 2nd exit(under the bridge and onto the Grange road roundabout) Is this allowed?? or is both lanes for turning right and the left is straight only on to the M50 only?

Thanks in advance

If you are turning right on a roundabout use the right hand lane.
If you are turning left (which you can’t in this case) or going straight ahead, use the left hand lane.
However if I remember correctly on this roundabout, straight ahead is onto a dual lane slip road, therefore you could be in the right hand lane and proceed straight also.
Under no circumstances should you be in the left hand lane and taking the right hand exit!

Isambard · 07-01-2019 6:46pm

depends if there are markings really but if there aren't any, you can take the straight ahead exit from either approach lane if there are two exit lanes.

.G. · 07-01-2019 7:27pm

See this all the time in Liffey Valley too at the Roundabout near B&Q when you turn right to head out onto the Coldcut road. Two lanes leading up to it from the shopping centre, both clearly marked, left hand lane for straight ahead to Tesco and B&Q, right hand lane marked for right turn to head out onto Coldcut road yet 90% of people go round the roundabout in the left hand lane so if you obey the rules of the road and stay in the right hand lane on the roundabout you most likely will have some toolbox beside you in the left lane that you need to exit into when you leave the roundabout.

Seth Brundle · 07-01-2019 7:31pm

All to often in Ireland, the standard of driving on dual carriageway is quite poor. When it comes to roundabouts, this becomes even more apparent.

hmmm · 07-01-2019 8:43pm

It might be allowed, but it's stupid driving - particularly those who fly up the inside in the blind spot.

tom1ie · 07-01-2019 9:13pm

hmmm wrote: »

It might be allowed, but it's stupid driving - particularly those who fly up the inside in the blind spot.

It’s not allowed.

Dravokivich · 07-01-2019 11:52pm

tom1ie wrote: »

If you are turning right on a roundabout use the right hand lane.
If you are turning left (which you can’t in this case) or going straight ahead, use the left hand lane.
However if I remember correctly on this roundabout, straight ahead is onto a dual lane slip road, therefore you could be in the right hand lane and proceed straight also.
Under no circumstances should you be in the left hand lane and taking the right hand exit!

No rules are set in stone. We should be trying to look at the signage on the lead up to a round about to determine appropriate lane usage.

liamog · 08-01-2019 12:12am

Dravokivich wrote: »

No rules are set in stone. We should be trying to look at the signage on the lead up to a round about to determine appropriate lane usage.

I find it a particular shame that we rely on road markings which are often obscured by traffic instead of eye level signage.

Dravokivich · 08-01-2019 12:26am

liamog wrote: »

I find it a particular shame that we rely on road markings which are often obscured by traffic instead of eye level signage.

Yeah, that's a pain, especially in congested traffic and unfamiliar roads. But signage can easily be obscured by large vehicles too.

liamog · 08-01-2019 1:18am

Dravokivich wrote: »

Yeah, that's a pain, especially in congested traffic and unfamiliar roads. But signage can easily be obscured by large vehicles too.

Something like these from the US. It wouldn't be so bad if we were consistent with lane markings but we mix them so often it's no wonder they become a free for all.

https://c8.alamy.com/comp/BDRY3D/roundabout-road-sign-in-keene-new-hampshire-usa-BDRY3D.jpg

bigar · 08-01-2019 2:00am

Seth Brundle wrote: »

All to often in Ireland, the standard of driving on dual carriageway is quite poor. When it comes to roundabouts, this becomes even more apparent.

That is better

Dillosk412 · 08-01-2019 2:46am

It's not permitted and very clearly signed both on approach and on markings.

Both lanes can continue up the ramp to the m50, but only the right lane can go under the bridge towards Dundrum and Marlay.

Now and then, but very rarely will you see a motorcycle cop watching

Alun · 08-01-2019 12:22pm

liamog wrote: »

Something like these from the US. It wouldn't be so bad if we were consistent with lane markings but we mix them so often it's no wonder they become a free for all.

Exactly. It's not just for roundabouts either, but also for traffic light controlled junctions. Driving through an unfamiliar area when it's busy, and the road markings are obscured by traffic is a lottery. One junction it's left lane for left only and right lane for right and straight on, and at the next one it's left lane for left and straight on and right lane is for right only.

tom1ie · 08-01-2019 2:02pm

The overriding rule at roundabouts is
Left lane: left turn and straight on.
Right lane: right turn only UNLESS the road straight ahead is a dual lane road. In this case you can use the right lane to go straight on.

There is NO legal way to be in the left hand lane and exit the roundabout on the right hand side.

liamog · 08-01-2019 2:18pm

tom1ie wrote: »

The overriding rule at roundabouts is
Left lane: left turn and straight on.
Right lane: right turn only UNLESS the road straight ahead is a dual lane road. In this case you can use the right lane to go straight on.

There is NO legal way to be in the left hand lane and exit the roundabout on the right hand side.

Markings on the road override the standard rules.

For instance you cannot use the right lane to use an exit before 12 O'Clock unless there is a lane marking indicating otherwise. Except in the case where traffic conditions e.g. a queue of cars heading left at the first exit.

If for some reason the leftmost lane had a right arrow, then you would be allowed to use the left lane to turn right. Though in reality this would be a terrible design and should probably be fixed by the relevant authority.

Seth Brundle · 08-01-2019 2:23pm

liamog wrote: »

Markings on the road override the standard rules.

For instance you cannot use the right lane to use an exit before 12 O'Clock unless there is a lane marking indicating otherwise. Except in the case where traffic conditions e.g. a queue of cars heading left at the first exit.

If for some reason the leftmost lane had a right arrow, then you would be allowed to use the left lane to turn right. Though in reality this would be a terrible design and should probably be fixed by the relevant authority.

This "12 o'clock" stuff shouldn't be used as many straight ahead exits are at 1o'clock etc

tom1ie · 08-01-2019 2:26pm

liamog wrote: »

Markings on the road override the standard rules.

For instance you cannot use the right lane to use an exit before 12 O'Clock unless there is a lane marking indicating otherwise. Except in the case where traffic conditions e.g. a queue of cars heading left at the first exit.

If for some reason the leftmost lane had a right arrow, then you would be allowed to use the left lane to turn right. Though in reality this would be a terrible design and should probably be fixed by the relevant authority.

In reality there are very few, if any, of these and whoever designed something like this has questions to answer.
I don’t understand the first part of your post?
“You cannot use the right lane to use an exit before 12 o clock”
What’s that mean?

tom1ie · 08-01-2019 2:27pm

Can we leave the clock face out of this please!

liamog · 08-01-2019 2:32pm

You cannot go straight at the roundabout unless you are in the leftmost lane, or their is a straight arrow in the right lane.

liamog · 08-01-2019 2:33pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

This "12 o'clock" stuff shouldn't be used as many straight ahead exits are at 1o'clock etc

It's the RSA who use the terminolgy. The whole point is that if straight is at 10 O'Clock Left Lane, if straight is at 2 O'Clock Right Lane.

tom1ie · 08-01-2019 2:35pm

liamog wrote: »

You cannot go straight at the roundabout unless you are in the leftmost lane, or their is a straight arrow in the right lane.

You can go straight in the right hand lane if the road straight ahead is a dual lane road.

Seth Brundle · 08-01-2019 2:35pm

liamog wrote: »

It's the RSA who use the terminolgy. The whole point is that if straight is at 10 O'Clock Left Lane, if straight is at 2 O'Clock Right Lane.

The RSA are clueless idiots when it comes to road usage and safety!

liamog · 08-01-2019 2:52pm

tom1ie wrote: »

You can go straight in the right hand lane if the road straight ahead is a dual lane road.

You can only do that if there is a straight arrow in the right hand lane.

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Road%20Safety/Leaflets/Leaf_booklets/Roundabouts_DL_2012_v3.pdf

Seth Brundle · 08-01-2019 3:01pm

Not according to the RSA's ROTR (pg132):

Going straight ahead (any exit between 6 o’clock and the 12 o’clock position)
Approach in the left-hand lane (unless road markings say otherwise) but do not indicate ‘left’ until you have passed the exit before the one you intend to take. Where traffic conditions dictate otherwise, for example a long line of traffic in the left lane signalling left or roadworks in the left lane, you may follow the course shown by the red line.

Taking any later exits (those from 12 o’clock to the 6 o’clock position)
Approach in the right-hand lane (unless road markings say otherwise), indicate ‘right’ on your approach and leave your indicator on until you have passed the exit before the one you intend to take. Then change to the ‘left’ turn indicator.
Move over towards the left on the roundabout and continue signalling left to leave.

Edit: your document says the same stuff!

tom1ie · 08-01-2019 3:07pm

So we have differing views on going straight in the rhl, but can we agree that turning right in the lhl is punishable by death?

emeldc · 08-01-2019 3:08pm

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2704102,-6.2427049,204a,35y,270h/data=!3m1!1e3

Have a look at the picture. Anyone in the left lane should only take the first exit. Drivers in the right hand lane can take the first or second exit.

GreeBo · 08-01-2019 3:12pm

You can only continue onto the M50 if you are in the left lane.
However, that lane moves a lot faster so cars often turn right from it.

I use the roundabout most days and 75% of the time someone tries it. They dont get far with me though.

Contrary to what was posted above, I have *never* seen a cop near this and I have had some very close calls with both having to slam on.

Seth Brundle · 08-01-2019 3:16pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Contrary to what was posted above, I have *never* seen a cop near this and I have had some very close calls with both having to slam on.

If you look at that roundabout on Streetview, there is a motorcycle guard a short bit ahead of the Google car

liamog · 08-01-2019 3:16pm

emeldc wrote: »

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2704102,-6.2427049,204a,35y,270h/data=!3m1!1e3

Have a look at the picture. Anyone in the left lane should only take the first exit. Drivers in the right hand lane can take the first or second exit.

Offically drivers in the right hand lane shouldn't take the first exit, they should only be taking the 2nd as the exit is before 12 O'Clock and there is not a road marking to indicate that straight is allowed.

emeldc · 08-01-2019 3:20pm

liamog wrote: »

Offically drivers in the right hand lane shouldn't take the first exit, they should only be taking the 2nd as the exit is before 12 O'Clock and there is not a road marking to indicate that straight is allowed.

That's wrong. There are two exit lanes at the first exit. What do you suppose the second one is for. Do you even know the roundabout.

GreeBo · 08-01-2019 3:26pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

If you look at that roundabout on Streetview, there is a motorcycle guard a short bit ahead of the Google car

Yeah but he is just using the roundabout to go North on the M50?

liamog · 08-01-2019 3:46pm

emeldc wrote: »

That's wrong. There are two exit lanes at the first exit. What do you suppose the second one is for. Do you even know the roundabout.

The number of exit lanes is immaterial to the rules for using a roundabout.

Traffic entering the roundabout from Dundrum where they would be taking an exit after 12 O'Clock and therefore in the inside lane on the roundabout.
The RSA get's to make up the rules of the road, not the common actions of drivers.

Wheety · 08-01-2019 3:47pm

superg wrote: »

See this all the time in Liffey Valley too at the Roundabout near B&Q when you turn right to head out onto the Coldcut road. Two lanes leading up to it from the shopping centre, both clearly marked, left hand lane for straight ahead to Tesco and B&Q, right hand lane marked for right turn to head out onto Coldcut road yet 90% of people go round the roundabout in the left hand lane so if you obey the rules of the road and stay in the right hand lane on the roundabout you most likely will have some toolbox beside you in the left lane that you need to exit into when you leave the roundabout.

Yup and I've often been coming from B&Q and turning left towards Coldcut and a taxi will come all the way around (coming from the shopping centre direction) in the left lane, not indicating and then turn off towards Coldcut too.

emeldc · 08-01-2019 4:24pm

liamog wrote: »

The number of exit lanes is immaterial to the rules for using a roundabout.

Traffic entering the roundabout from Dundrum where they would be taking an exit after 12 O'Clock and therefore in the inside lane on the roundabout.
The RSA get's to make up the rules of the road, not the common actions of drivers.

Yea whatever. I know the R/A like the back of my hand. But I wont argue with you. You entitled to be wrong if you want to :rolleyes:

realdanbreen · 08-01-2019 4:29pm

Keep it simple(and correct)
If you are taking 1st or 2nd exit you stay in left lane
If you are taking any exit after that you stay in right lane.

tom1ie · 08-01-2019 4:58pm

realdanbreen wrote: »

Keep it simple(and correct)
If you are taking 1st or 2nd exit you stay in left lane
If you are taking any exit after that you stay in right lane.

Problem being on this particular roundabout there are only two exits, straight ahead for m50 and right for grange road.
So you can’t use the left hand lane for the 2nd exit.

ILikeBoats · 08-01-2019 5:10pm

Alun wrote: »

Exactly. It's not just for roundabouts either, but also for traffic light controlled junctions. Driving through an unfamiliar area when it's busy, and the road markings are obscured by traffic is a lottery. One junction it's left lane for left only and right lane for right and straight on, and at the next one it's left lane for left and straight on and right lane is for right only.

This can be very frustrating

Tchaikovsky · 08-01-2019 5:17pm

tom1ie wrote: »

There is NO legal way to be in the left hand lane and exit the roundabout on the right hand side.

Strangely enough, I encountered a Garda car doing just that (left lane, right exit) a few months ago.

liamog · 08-01-2019 5:44pm

emeldc wrote: »

Yea whatever. I know the R/A like the back of my hand. But I wont argue with you. You entitled to be wrong if you want to :rolleyes:

So which feature of the roundabout is allowing you to ignore the keep left rule?

Is the exit after 12 O'Clock? - NO
Are there lane markings indicating that lane 2 (the right lane) can go straight? - NO
Is there a road sign indicating that lane 2 can go straight? - NO
Do traffic conditions dictate otherwise, e.g. such as a long line or road works in the left lane - Possibly

So unless #4 applies, the driver should be on the left, and by not doing so is incorrectly using the roundabout.

emeldc · 08-01-2019 5:59pm

liamog wrote: »

So which feature of the roundabout is allowing you to ignore the keep left rule?
Is the exit after 12 O'Clock? - NO

Are there lane markings indicating that lane 2 (the right lane) can go straight? - NO

Is there a road sign indicating that lane 2 can go straight? - NO

Do traffic conditions dictate otherwise, e.g. such as a long line or road works in the left lane - Possibly

So unless #4 applies, the driver should be on the left, and by not doing so is incorrectly using the roundabout.

That feature would be the two exit lanes at the first exit. It never ceases to amaze me that even when something is pointed out to someone in black and white and they still can't see it.
If everyone heading for the M50 was compelled to use the left lane only, the tailback would stretch back to cherrywood! That's why there are two exit lanes. It helps the traffic-flow. They are not there for decoration. Do yourself a favour, if you're ever on it don't use the left lane for the second exit or you might get flattened by a HGV heading for the M50. Trust me!

Edit: There actually are road markings. A dotted white line from the R/A to the ramp. Also the two cars and the cop must be in the wrong lane as well.
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2702195,-6.2425828,3a,60y,270h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snPGsY0vyyN5FGKMY-_rH2Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

liamog · 08-01-2019 6:41pm

emeldc wrote: »

That feature would be the two exit lanes at the first exit. It never ceases to amaze me that even when something is pointed out to someone in black and white and they still can't see it.
If everyone heading for the M50 was compelled to use the left lane only, the tailback would stretch back to cherrywood! That's why there are two exit lanes. It helps the traffic-flow. They are not there for decoration. Do yourself a favour, if you're ever on it don't use the left lane for the second exit or you might get flattened by a HGV heading for the M50. Trust me!

Edit: There actually are road markings. A dotted white line from the R/A to the ramp. Also the two cars and the cop must be in the wrong lane as well.
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2702195,-6.2425828,3a,60y,270h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snPGsY0vyyN5FGKMY-_rH2Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Why would the traffic stretch back to Cherrywood for the first exit? Drivers would then be following the rule that traffic conditions allow them to use right lane.

It appears we may have crossed wires, I'm not arguing for keep left for the 2nd exit. You should be in the right lane for that as it's clearly after 12 O'Clock. This is why the instructions for roundabouts use the O'Clock system. It doesn't really matter what number the exit, what matters is where it is on the clock face.

emeldc · 08-01-2019 10:49pm

liamog wrote: »

Offically drivers in the right hand lane shouldn't take the first exit, they should only be taking the 2nd as the exit is before 12 O'Clock and there is not a road marking to indicate that straight is allowed.

We don’t have crossed wires. Your argument is that drivers in the r/h lane shouldn’t take the first exit. I have shown you with logic and pictures that you are wrong. There is nothing more I can do here. I’m out.

SimonTemplar · 08-01-2019 11:25pm

I found this in a leaflet from the RSA on roundabout usage

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Road%20Safety/Leaflets/Leaf_booklets/Roundabouts_DL_2012_v3.pdf

So it seems the default is to use the left but the right can also be used if needed.

liamog · 08-01-2019 11:48pm

emeldc wrote: »

We don’t have crossed wires. Your argument is that drivers in the r/h lane shouldn’t take the first exit. I have shown you with logic and pictures that you are wrong. There is nothing more I can do here. I’m out.

I have said that drivers in the right hand lane should not take the first exit unless

4. Traffic conditions dictate otherwise, e.g. such as a long line or road works in the left lane

as per the RSA guidelines. Which I linked and SimonTemplar has rather helpfully snippetted to assist.

You have not been able to provide a reason using photos or logic as to why using the r/h lane is allowed. Repeating the assertion without a source does not make it true.

emeldc · 09-01-2019 12:07am

liamog wrote: »

You have not been able to provide a reason using photos or logic as to why using the r/h lane is allowed. Repeating the assertion without a source does not make it true.

Ok, I’ll try again and I suggest you read the op’s question again.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2702195,-6.2425828,3a,60y,270h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snPGsY0vyyN5FGKMY-_rH2Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
This is the first exit off the r/a in question. Please explain what you don’t understand about it.

liamog · 09-01-2019 12:15am

emeldc wrote: »

Ok, I’ll try again and I suggest you read the op’s question again.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2702195,-6.2425828,3a,60y,270h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snPGsY0vyyN5FGKMY-_rH2Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
This is the first exit off the r/a in question. Please explain what you don’t understand about it.

As previously stated, I'm clearly aware of the roundabout. Again I ask you the question what justification do you have for being in the right lane?

If you were 'pulled' for being in the wrong lane, what reason would you provide that is backed up by a source other than "Well shucks, other people do it Garda."

emeldc · 09-01-2019 12:20am

liamog wrote: »

As previously stated, I'm clearly aware of the roundabout. Again I ask you the question what justification do you have for being in the right lane?

If you were 'pulled' for being in the wrong lane, what reason would you provide that is backed up by a source other than "Well shucks, other people do it Garda."

Ah liamog, FFS, I can’t argue any more with you. Drive safely.

liamog · 09-01-2019 1:07am

You too emeldc.

If you ever want to discuss an interesting roundabout again with similar traffic movements
here's one I'd recommnd https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4267662,-6.3582727,202m/data=!3m1!1e3 though I supect you may want a break

realdanbreen · 09-01-2019 9:06am

SimonTemplar wrote: »

I found this in a leaflet from the RSA on roundabout usage

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Road%20Safety/Leaflets/Leaf_booklets/Roundabouts_DL_2012_v3.pdf

So it seems the default is to use the left but the right can also be used if needed.

That whole '12 O'clock ' rule has a bolox made of the whole thing.
Much simpler (and safer) to keep in left lane if taking 1st or 2nd exit, otherwise use right lane.

GreeBo · 09-01-2019 10:39am

realdanbreen wrote: »

That whole '12 O'clock ' rule has a bolox made of the whole thing.
Much simpler (and safer) to keep in left lane if taking 1st or 2nd exit, otherwise use right lane.

Not at all, as the roundabout in question aptly demonstrates!

Roundabout Query

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