Incorrect date of fixed notice

bilasy · 25-06-2020 10:28pm #1

I was caught speeding on 24/05 @9:10 am(Sunday)at 72 km on 50 km area, The Garda told me he will send fine and 3 penalty point, after 1 month I received the notice with wrong date 19/06 Friday 2 am, lesson learned and happy to pay the fine, should I call the Garda to correct the error and may be he change it to 2 points?? Do I have a case if I request cancellation?Or just pay? By no means I don’t want hire solicitor water the the court time
Thanks for advice if any one had similar experience

whippet · 26-06-2020 10:02am

if you want to contest it you would have to go to court and take your chances there.

The 3points is a FPN points allocation - the guard would have no discretion to change it to 2 points.

As far as I'm aware making small changes to the summons can happen to correct small errors - i'm not sure if the date and time can be changed - but you'd need to go to court to see.

GerardKeating · 26-06-2020 10:09am

bilasy wrote: »

I was caught speeding on 24/05 @9:10 am(Sunday)at 72 km on 50 km area, The Garda told me he will send fine and 3 penalty point, after 1 month I received the notice with wrong date 19/06 Friday 2 am, lesson learned and happy to pay the fine, should I call the Garda to correct the error and may be he change it to 2 points?? Do I have a case if I request cancellation?Or just pay? By no means I don’t want hire solicitor water the the court time
Thanks for advice if any one had similar experience

Unless this is for a difference speading offence, and the May one is still in the post.

BaronVon · 26-06-2020 11:29am

The date and time on the FCN isn't a necessary proof, it's merely there to help you remember the incident, which you do. If the case goes to Court, the Guard will simply apply to the Judge to amend the summons to the correct date, and the case will proceed.

And, as stated above, points are applied by the DTTAS, not by the guards. He'd have no discretion in relation to points, nor does the judge.

Lenar3556 · 26-06-2020 11:57am

BaronVon wrote: »

The date and time on the FCN isn't a necessary proof, it's merely there to help you remember the incident, which you do. If the case goes to Court, the Guard will simply apply to the Judge to amend the summons to the correct date, and the case will proceed.

And, as stated above, points are applied by the DTTAS, not by the guards. He'd have no discretion in relation to points, nor does the judge.

Agree, although it depends where the error has arisen and at what point the Garda identify it. If the Garda made incorrect notes in the first instance and provides the wrong date and time in his evidence, the prosecution is likely to fail.

More likely that his notebook entries are correct however and the alleged offence was simply entered incorrectly on the computer system which is not fatal.

nuac · 26-06-2020 12:06pm

mod
court has wide powers to amend summons. Get legal advice

bilasy · 26-06-2020 12:06pm

whippet wrote: »

if you want to contest it you would have to go to court and take your chances there.

The 3points is a FPN points allocation - the guard would have no discretion to change it to 2 points.

As far as I'm aware making small changes to the summons can happen to correct small errors - i'm not sure if the date and time can be changed - but you'd need to go to court to see.

How about if I apply for cancellation ? In the Garda website guidance it reads: material error: where you wish to contest the speed limit, date or time of the offence - please be advised that minor discrepancy may not invalidate the notice .
Obviously I don’t want to drag it longer time or go to court, nothing like that . Worst case scenario they will read the letter and decline to change anything and I’ll pay it at the post office

Lenar3556 · 26-06-2020 12:27pm

bilasy wrote: »

How about if I apply for cancellation ? In the Garda website guidance it reads: material error: where you wish to contest the speed limit, date or time of the offence - please be advised that minor discrepancy may not invalidate the notice .
Obviously I don’t want to drag it longer time or go to court, nothing like that . Worst case scenario they will read the letter and decline to change anything and I’ll pay it at the post office

Certainly worth a try, given your position.
If you hadn’t been stopped in person by a member of the Garda you may have more success. I would suspect they will decline your request and you are also alerting them to the error which would be unhelpful if it was a case that you were planning to contest in court.

GavMan · 26-06-2020 12:29pm

Why bother wasting anyone's time with this. Particularly your own. You were speeding, just pay the fine and move with life. What is the material issue with the date and time being wrong. I picked up points for speeding and the insurance company didn't even ding me for it.

I'm struggling to see that pay off other than save 80 quid and that very unlikely to happen.

On the other hand, Like another poster said, any chance this is a separate incident and not an error on the first.

bilasy · 26-06-2020 4:06pm

GavMan wrote: »

Why bother wasting anyone's time with this. Particularly your own. You were speeding, just pay the fine and move with life. What is the material issue with the date and time being wrong. I picked up points for speeding and the insurance company didn't even ding me for it.

I'm struggling to see that pay off other than save 80 quid and that very unlikely to happen.

On the other hand, Like another poster said, any chance this is a separate incident and not an error on the first.

By paying I consent that I was there at 2 am , why would I do that? I’m actually happy if they send another FCN with at least the right date.
Also correct me if I’m wrong the points will stay in my record for 3 years from the date of issue ( which should’ve been early June , so that’s been delayed by one month now
And no , it’s not a separate incident, I was home that time
I emailed them the request already we have 28 day, if they don’t get back to me before my 28 days , I’ll just pay

BattleCorp · 26-06-2020 5:33pm

If you accept it, you will get 3 penalty points.

If you go to court and win, you get 0 penalty points.

If you go to court and lose, you get 5 penalty points.

iomusicdublin · 28-06-2020 4:35pm

bilasy wrote: »

I was caught speeding on 24/05 @9:10 am(Sunday)at 72 km on 50 km area, The Garda told me he will send fine and 3 penalty point, after 1 month I received the notice with wrong date 19/06 Friday 2 am, lesson learned and happy to pay the fine, should I call the Garda to correct the error and may be he change it to 2 points?? Do I have a case if I request cancellation?Or just pay? By no means I don’t want hire solicitor water the the court time
Thanks for advice if any one had similar experience

Were you speedng in your car on the 19 June at 2am?

bilasy · 03-07-2020 8:43pm

iomusicdublin wrote: »

Were you speedng in your car on the 19 June at 2am?

No, I was home that time

iomusicdublin · 04-07-2020 2:25pm

bilasy wrote: »

No, I was home that time

then you are not guilty of the offence you have been accused of

Lenar3556 · 04-07-2020 3:33pm

iomusicdublin wrote: »

then you are not guilty of the offence you have been accused of

You have to remember the purpose of an FCN is to avoid the necessity for a court appearance. While there is an error in the FCN, this does not make the whole thing dead in the water. If the OP doesn’t pay, a summons to court will issue. He can raise the fact that the detail was incorrect, the judge will amend the summons to the correct time/date, the OP will plead guilty and he will be convicted. This means more points and recorded conviction.

There is a possibility he could get it thrown out if the Garda didn’t realise the error and provided the incorrect time and date in his evidence, or at a stretch if the Garda didn’t attend the court. But this is risky. I would notify the FCPO of the error, see if they wish to amend the notice, but pay the damn thing and be done with it.

iomusicdublin · 04-07-2020 4:02pm

Lenar3556 wrote: »

You have to remember the purpose of an FCN is to avoid the necessity for a court appearance. While there is an error in the FCN, this does not make the whole thing dead in the water.

They are not guilty of the offence.

It is the incorrect month, the incorrect day, the incorrect time.

Lenar3556 · 04-07-2020 4:27pm

iomusicdublin wrote: »

They are not guilty of the offence.

It is the incorrect month, the incorrect day, the incorrect time.

The judge will agree with you. Then promptly amend the summons so it shows the correct particulars.

bilasy · 04-07-2020 5:38pm

iomusicdublin wrote: »

They are not guilty of the offence.

It is the incorrect month, the incorrect day, the incorrect time.

I’ve sent a cancellation request citing a material error, I’ll wait and see, frankly I’m happy if they amend the date and time and send me a new FCN, happier if it’s cancelled, but I was never in the said date and time, also I don’t wish to drag it to court.

bilasy · 04-07-2020 5:40pm

iomusicdublin wrote: »

They are not guilty of the offence.

It is the incorrect month, the incorrect day, the incorrect time.

Also it’s the wrong speed , but I didn’t mention as it’s 8 km difference only.

iomusicdublin · 04-07-2020 6:32pm

bilasy wrote: »

I’ve sent a cancellation request citing a material error, I’ll wait and see, frankly I’m happy if they amend the date and time and send me a new FCN, happier if it’s cancelled, but I was never in the said date and time, also I don’t wish to drag it to court.

Best of luck with that.

BattleCorp · 06-07-2020 9:23am

bilasy wrote: »

Also it’s the wrong speed , but I didn’t mention as it’s 8 km difference only.

Maybe I haven't had enough coffee yet to be awake but how do you know that it's the wrong speed?

Pkiernan · 06-07-2020 9:26am

iomusicdublin wrote: »

They are not guilty of the offence.

It is the incorrect month, the incorrect day, the incorrect time.

Doesn't mean he won't be found guilty!

ahnowbrowncow · 06-07-2020 10:04am

BattleCorp wrote: »

Maybe I haven't had enough coffee yet to be awake but how do you know that it's the wrong speed?

Because the garda pulled them over and told them what speed they were doing and it seems the FPN speed is different to that.

BattleCorp · 06-07-2020 10:12am

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

Because the garda pulled them over and told them what speed they were doing and it seems the FPN speed is different to that.

Do the Gardai give you a print-out of the speed you were doing there and then when they stop you?

ahnowbrowncow · 06-07-2020 1:46pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

Do the Gardai give you a print-out of the speed you were doing there and then when they stop you?

No I don't think so, they just slap some sense into you and tell you a notice will be issued to your address.

BattleCorp · 06-07-2020 2:43pm

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

No I don't think so, they just slap some sense into you and tell you a notice will be issued to your address.

So no proof that there is an 8km mistake with the speed.

ahnowbrowncow · 06-07-2020 3:51pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

So no proof that there is an 8km mistake with the speed.

They tell you the speed and show you it on the gun so the OP would know if there was a difference but they wouldn't have physical proof.

bilasy · 07-07-2020 5:42pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

Maybe I haven't had enough coffee yet to be awake but how do you know that it's the wrong speed?

The Garda who stopped me said you we’re driving 72km/ hr

Midnight_EG · 07-07-2020 5:46pm

Is the location of the offense the same as the one you were stopped for? All evidence points to you being caught on a separate occasion tbh

bilasy · 07-07-2020 5:47pm

Pkiernan wrote: »

Doesn't mean he won't be found guilty!

I’m sorry guys why will be found guilty? I just want to do the right thing ( pay the penalty in the correct time and date) why can’t they just issue a new FCN ?

bilasy · 07-07-2020 5:50pm

Midnight_EG wrote: »

Is the location of the offense the same as the one you were stopped for? All evidence points to you being caught on a separate occasion tbh

ðŸ˜‚ location is right, Drummartin link Rd, I seldom drive through, the one time I did I was caught speeding

bilasy · 07-07-2020 5:54pm

bilasy wrote: »

I’m sorry guys why will be found guilty? I just want to do the right thing ( pay the penalty in the correct time and date) why can’t they just issue a new FCN ?

Just got a call from the Garda who stopped me, said according his notes he agreed with me however can’t change the FCN, can’t explain the wrong info, his advice just pay
Unless the office FCN office writes to him to change his report

iomusicdublin · 11-07-2020 2:56pm

bilasy wrote: »

Just got a call from the Garda who stopped me, said according his notes he agreed with me however can’t change the FCN, can’t explain the wrong info, his advice just pay
Unless the office FCN office writes to him to change his report

If you pay ... you are pleading guilty to something that you did not do.

I would have gone to court and let the garda give his incorrect evidence, but now he knows

Lenar3556 · 11-07-2020 3:45pm

iomusicdublin wrote: »

If you pay ... you are pleading guilty to something that you did not do.

I would have gone to court and let the garda give his incorrect evidence, but now he knows

And if he continued with the catalogue of errors in his evidence, you would likely get it struck out. But that’s a risk, because it is more likely that the error was made in the FCPO or when the Garda inputted the information to the computer system in the first instance. His notebook may well have had the correct details from day one.

I would pay it in the circumstances, notify the FCPO in writing of the error in the particulars for completeness.

iomusicdublin · 11-07-2020 4:06pm

Lenar3556 wrote: »

And if he continued with the catalogue of errors in his evidence, you would likely get it struck out. But that’s a risk, because it is more likely that the error was made in the FCPO or when the Garda inputted the information to the computer system in the first instance. His notebook may well have had the correct details from day one.

I would pay it in the circumstances, notify the FCPO in writing of the error in the particulars for completeness.

He is not guilty of the offence

Lenar3556 · 11-07-2020 4:42pm

iomusicdublin wrote: »

He is not guilty of the offence

He hasn’t been tried for it yet! The FCN doesn’t ask if he believes he is guilty or not. He is given the option to pay a charge to avoid being prosecuted, and also .to receive a mitigated number of penalty points.

In this case there was no contest from the OP that he had indeed committed an offence, and so it is likely that he would be convicted and all that follows that.

He quite rightly queried the incorrect details on the notice with the FCPO and spoke to the Garda who detected him speeding, and it is now reasonably clear that this notice relates to the incident in which he was stopped and of which the facts are undisputed.

It would usually be poor advice to knowingly allow a prosecution be initiated in such circumstances where the matter can be dealt with by paying the FCN. Errors appearing in an FCN should not be seen as something that will stop the matter proceeding or your being convicted in court.

99nsr125 · 11-07-2020 6:48pm

Lenar3556 wrote: »

He hasn’t been tried for it yet! The FCN doesn’t ask if he believes he is guilty or not. He is given the option to pay a charge to avoid being prosecuted, and also .to receive a mitigated number of penalty points.

In this case there was no contest from the OP that he had indeed committed an offence, and so it is likely that he would be convicted and all that follows that.

He quite rightly queried the incorrect details on the notice with the FCPO and spoke to the Garda who detected him speeding, and it is now reasonably clear that this notice relates to the incident in which he was stopped and of which the facts are undisputed.

It would usually be poor advice to knowingly allow a prosecution be initiated in such circumstances where the matter can be dealt with by paying the FCN. Errors appearing in an FCN should not be seen as something that will stop the matter proceeding or your being convicted in court.

You don't really appear to be on the OP's side.

Personally I would go to court and watch it being struck out

stayback · 11-07-2020 11:25pm

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

They tell you the speed and show you it on the gun so the OP would know if there was a difference but they wouldn't have physical proof.

Question does the guard have to show you the speed on the gun.

Lenar3556 · 12-07-2020 12:20am

stayback wrote: »

Question does the guard have to show you the speed on the gun.

There is no legal requirement, but is common practise.

un5byh7sqpd2x0 · 12-07-2020 12:25am

Lenar3556 wrote: »

The judge will agree with you. Then promptly amend the summons so it shows the correct particulars.

Wrong

bilasy · 12-07-2020 8:21pm

99nsr125 wrote: »

You don't really appear to be on the OP's side.

Personally I would go to court and watch it being struck out

1. I’m still a/w the FCN reply to my query, my 28 days expire on 22/07, then I move to the 56 days period and €120 charge.

2. I never been to police station in my life, let alone court, do I need to hire a solicitor?, worst case Scenario if I get convicted I’ll pay heftier fine, conviction will be on my record and 5 points bad for my insurance .

I’m still hoping someone takes responsibility and cancel the FCN or just amend it.

Lundstram · 12-07-2020 8:24pm

bilasy wrote: »

1. I’m still a/w the FCN reply to my query, my 28 days expire on 22/07, then I move to the 56 days period and €120 charge.

2. I never been to police station in my life, let alone court, do I need to hire a solicitor?, worst case Scenario if I get convicted I’ll pay heftier fine, conviction will be on my record and 5 points bad for my insurance .

I’m still hoping someone takes responsibility and cancel the FCN or just amend it.

Yes, you will need a solicitor. Judges take a dim view of Joe Soap representing themselves. They waste court time.

Pay it and move on with your life.

Bass Reeves · 12-07-2020 8:38pm

Lundstram wrote: »

Yes, you will need a solicitor. Judges take a dim view of Joe Soap representing themselves. They waste court time.

Pay it and move on with your life.

Judges also get annoyed by incorrect details on summons. Changes to FCN's usually are in the case of names and address's incorrectly take down due to details being hard to understand correctly where maybe a non national was given details.

OP has contacted and informed the authority of the need for correction. If the court summons come out with details different to the FCN then OP was never given a chance accept such a FCN.

However OP I be inclined to contact a solicitor which you should have from the start. It costs but when the choice is a 80 euro fine and 3 penalty points and paying a solicitor 150-200 euro then you have to access the risk/cost of both options.

bilasy · 24-07-2020 7:49am

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Judges also get annoyed by incorrect details on summons. Changes to FCN's usually are in the case of names and address's incorrectly take down due to details being hard to understand correctly where maybe a non national was given details.

OP has contacted and informed the authority of the need for correction. If the court summons come out with details different to the FCN then OP was never given a chance accept such a FCN.

However OP I be inclined to contact a solicitor which you should have from the start. It costs but when the choice is a 80 euro fine and 3 penalty points and paying a solicitor 150-200 euro then you have to access the risk/cost of both options.

Quick update, received a letter today the my FCN was cancelled
Thank you all for for valuable input.

Lenar3556 · 24-07-2020 8:57am

bilasy wrote: »

Quick update, received a letter today the my FCN was cancelled
Thank you all for for valuable input.

Good outcome!

seagull · 24-07-2020 10:41am

bilasy wrote: »

Quick update, received a letter today the my FCN was cancelled
Thank you all for for valuable input.

Has it been cancelled with an amended one to follow, or is that the end of it?

bilasy · 25-07-2020 8:39am

seagull wrote: »

Has it been cancelled with an amended one to follow, or is that the end of it?

Cancelled and that’s the end of it!

bilasy · 25-07-2020 8:41am

seagull wrote: »

Has it been cancelled with an amended one to follow, or is that the end of it?

Cancelled and that”s the end of it!

99nsr125 · 25-07-2020 3:37pm

bilasy wrote: »

Quick update, received a letter today the my FCN was cancelled
Thank you all for for valuable input.

Good

Remember be on your side not theirs

Incorrect date of fixed notice

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