Who Are The People Buying Sex This Way?

Zorya · 23-05-2019 10:20am #1

A few articles I read recently got me thinking again about something that has long bothered me.

Laila Mickelwait is an activist against the legalisation of prostitution, and the article I came across was about a mega brothel that existed in Germany offering 'flat rate' services, ie the punters paid a set fee upon entry, showered and put on a towel, bought a drink or some food, and then had access to any available woman in the building for any service over a period of time.

Pussy Club advertised itself thus -

"Sex with all women as long as you want, as often as you want and the way you want. Sex. Anal sex. Oral sex without a condom. Three-ways. Group sex. Gang bangs." The price: €70 during the day and €100 in the evening.

1700 people queued to get in on opening night.

In 2017 Germany outlawed flat rate brothels. Mickelwait describes how things were there -

By the end of the opening day many of the women had collapsed from exhaustion, pain, injuries, and infections, including painful rashes and fungal infections that had spread from their genitals down their legs.

Over 1 million people pay for sex per day in Germany. 400,000 people at last estimate work as prostitutes there. Many are trafficked. In fact it is said that Germany has become the "center for the sexual exploitation of young women from Eastern Europe, as well as a sphere of activity for organized crime groups from around the world." (Wiki).
Spain is a centre for sex trafficking. 300,000 women, mostly trafficked, work as prostitutes since decriminalisation. Legalisation makes trafficking easier. Another article said that almost every town in Scotland has trafficked prostitutes. Sex slaves, basically. A quarter of people trafficked into sex slavery are children. Human trafficking is huge in Europe. It is the second most profitable criminal activity after drugs.

Prostitutes are now being defined as ''sex workers'', as if the term ''worker'', with its implied respectable transactional element, can somehow legitimise this. This is the modern feminist perspective - to fight for their ''rights''. This is bullsh!t. With trafficked people making up such a huge bulk of the prostitutes worker is an impossible definition.

One article I read described how a person who worked as a receptionist in a legal brothel in Australia gradually went from supporting the legalisation of ''sex work'' to realising its unrelenting brutality.

What occurs to me is who are the people who are comfortable buying sex in such situations?
How can ordinary people get off when they must suspect that the prostitutes are basically slaves?

Personally I can see a place for sexual services in society. For example, people who work offering sex to the disabled. Independent consorts who offer services to people going through a dry spell or unable to meet a sexual partner. Reasonable regulated services where people have a bit of manners and both people are voluntarily acting and protected. But this does not seem to be anywhere near the norm.

It's freaky to think that there are bad people out there who would rape or practise incest, but at least one can realise that they do not exist huge numbers. They are aberrations. But for this atrocious slave trade to be as enormously profitable as it is, it requires hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of ordinary people all over the world to be prepared to pay money every day to abuse and degrade sex slaves. That is soooo much more freaky.

Who are these ordinary monsters?

Some sources -
http://lailamickelwait.com/2018/03/21/germany-europes-biggest-brothel/
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/sex-slaves-almost-every-scottish-16166552
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/may/11/prostitution-tackling-spain-sex-traffickers
https://nordicmodelnow.org/2018/07/01/working-as-a-receptionist-in-a-legal-brothel-prostitution-is-anything-but-a-normal-job/

suicide_circus · 23-05-2019 10:35am

the drive to have sex can be extremely powerful, perhaps the most powerful urge a human can experience along with the desire for food, water and air. as for mentally dissociating the act from the "service provider", we do this all the time. From our clothes made by a child chained to a loom in Bangladesh to the cheap flights we take pumping tonnes of poison into the atmosphere.

Kivaro · 23-05-2019 10:41am

On the other hand, earlier this week you have the Royal College of Nursing (RCN) actively lobbying to have prostitution decriminalised in the UK to protect the health and welfare of sex workers.

That makes much more sense to me.

Zorya · 23-05-2019 10:43am

suicide_circus wrote: »

the drive to have sex can be extremely powerful, perhaps the most powerful urge a human can experience along with the desire for food, water and air. as for mentally dissociating the act from the "service provider", we do this all the time. From our clothes made by a child chained to a loom in Bangladesh to the cheap flights we take pumping tonnes of poison into the atmosphere.

Of course it's powerful SC, but you are not comparing like with like. Disassociating from the invisible child making your clothes has got to be on a completely different level from disassociating with the enslaved person in front of one and with whom one is having sex. ?

Plus some of those articles described levels of regular and intimate violence that are horrible.

Former Observer · 23-05-2019 10:44am

Good post. There will always be many, many more men who want to pay for sex than there will be women that want to be paid for sex. Despite the trend in orthodox liberal thinking that 'sex work' is just like any other work, it is not. The amount of women who choose prostitution without coming from backgrounds of abuse, poverty, deprivation, or feelings of low self worth is vanishingly small. A lot of the defenders of 'sex work' would hate to see their own daughters selling their bodies.

Grayson · 23-05-2019 10:44am

Kivaro wrote: »

On the other hand, earlier this week you have the Royal College of Nursing (RCN) actively lobbying to have prostitution decriminalised in the UK to protect the health and welfare of sex workers.

That makes much more sense to me.

I think there's a chance for a sensible framework to exist which protects the rights of sex workers, prevent sex trafficking, etc. Sex work has always existed. It will probably always exist. Complete deregulation would lead to the worst excesses though.

Zorya · 23-05-2019 10:47am

Kivaro wrote: »

On the other hand, earlier this week you have the Royal College of Nursing (RCN) actively lobbying to have prostitution decriminalised in the UK to protect the health and welfare of sex workers.

That makes much more sense to me.

I saw that too, and I can understand the urge. Regulated protected work would be good. But I think it's impossible. In practice where there is decriminalisation there is a huge surge in sex trafficking like in Spain. Most prostitutes are sex slaves, not sex workers. It's just a fact. And it's a booming business. It has to built on regular ordinary customers willing to not give a crap who is this human being on the receiving end of their attentions.

OldGoat · 23-05-2019 10:49am

You are making the assumption that anyone who pays for sex is going to abuse and degrade the sex-worker.

Sadly the trade in sex trafficking will continue no matter what schemes are put in place to curb however one that might vastly reduce it's impact would be the decriminalisation or even the legalisation of prostitution.

Zorya · 23-05-2019 10:52am

Former Observer wrote: »

Despite the trend in orthodox liberal thinking that 'sex work' is just like any other work, it is not. The amount of women who choose prostitution without coming from backgrounds of abuse, poverty, deprivation, or feelings of low self worth is vanishingly small. A lot of the defenders of 'sex work' would hate to see their own daughters selling their bodies.

Yes. It is usually poverty or trafficking. This ''worker'' phrase is modern marxist BS being applied to make abuse seem like it can be salvaged. Like surrogates are now being called ''gestational workers''. These people are so poor that they have no choice. I know there are independent consorts and escorts who maintain good standards for themselves and they are lucky. I can understand a person, man or woman, using such services where there is dignity and manners. But it is far far from the norm.

Zorya · 23-05-2019 10:54am

OldGoat wrote: »

You are making the assumption that anyone who pays for sex is going to abuse and degrade the sex-worker.

Sadly the trade in sex trafficking will continue no matter what schemes are put in place to curb however one that might vastly reduce it's impact would be the decriminalisation or even the legalisation of prostitution.

If a person has sex with a trafficked person, who are the majority of prostitutes, the act is inherently abusive and degrading, even if they imagine they are being kind and sweet to the person who is a slave.

suicide_circus · 23-05-2019 10:56am

Zorya wrote: »

Of course it's powerful SC, but you are not comparing like with like. Disassociating from the invisible child making your clothes has got to be on a completely different level from disassociating with the enslaved person in front of one and with whom one is having sex. ?

Plus some of those articles described levels of regular and intimate violence that are horrible.

maybe a better comparison would be war. man's brutality to his fellow man (or woman). thing is, this is not a new phenomenon, it is in fact very very old. i dont have any answers by the way...other than to say that good people frequently do bad things.

Zorya · 23-05-2019 11:03am

OldGoat wrote: »

.

Sadly the trade in sex trafficking will continue no matter what schemes are put in place to curb however one that might vastly reduce it's impact would be the decriminalisation or even the legalisation of prostitution.

Most studies seem to show that legalisation increases trafficking. Customers do not choose to substitute protected prostitutes for trafficked ones...

Supporters of the Swedish model say that in countries like the Netherlands, where pimping and brothel-keeping were legalised in 2000, trafficking has increased and the welfare of prostitutes has suffered.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/08/criminsalise-buying-not-selling-sex

https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/04/19/is-legalized-prostitution-safer/legalizing-prostitution-leads-to-more-trafficking

On average, countries where prostitution is legal experience larger reported human trafficking inflows.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305750X12001453

The scale effect of legalizing prostitution, i.e. expansion of the market, outweighs the substitution effect, where legal sex workers are favored over illegal workers. On average, countries with legalized prostitution report a greater incidence of human trafficking inflows.

https://orgs.law.harvard.edu/lids/2014/06/12/does-legalized-prostitution-increase-human-trafficking/

jam_mac_jam · 23-05-2019 11:04am

I am torn on this, in one way I think that it’s wrong and dangerous so should be illegal and the legalisation of it normalises the behaviour. The windows in Amsterdam for example with women sitting there like products is disgusting. The de humanisation is horrible.

On the other hand, it’s going to happen anyway so at least if its legalised then women are in less danger and not criminalised. I don’t know, I used to be completely in favour of legalisation but looking at the countries where it is it doesn’t seem hugely successful.

Zorya · 23-05-2019 11:07am

suicide_circus wrote: »

maybe a better comparison would be war. man's brutality to his fellow man (or woman). thing is, this is not a new phenomenon, it is in fact very very old. i dont have any answers by the way...other than to say that good people frequently do bad things.

I know it is complex and all of us are dark and quite capable of bad things.

But say your regular friends were going to war, a spot of random slaughter and blood lust at the weekend, would you not raise an eyebrow?

Zorya · 23-05-2019 11:10am

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

I am torn on this, in one way I think that it’s wrong and dangerous so should be illegal and the legalisation of it normalises the behaviour. The windows in Amsterdam for example with women sitting there like products is disgusting. The de humanisation is horrible.

On the other hand, it’s going to happen anyway so at least if its legalised then women are in less danger and not criminalised. I don’t know, I used to be completely in favour of legalisation but looking at the countries where it is it doesn’t seem hugely successful.

It is a huge and booming industry - trafficking humans, and many of them children. It's so ugly to think about. I don't feel torn on it anymore, though yes like you I used to think it would be best to legalise it. But it just seems that the subterranean appetite for degradation and abuse is too great and cannot be controlled that way. Cannot understand how people fund it.

Grayson · 23-05-2019 11:15am

Zorya wrote: »

I know it is complex and all of us are dark and quite capable of bad things.

But say your regular friends were going to war, a spot of random slaughter and blood lust at the weekend, would you not raise an eyebrow?

On the flip side if you said you were getting a massage no-one would raise an eyebrow. If you said you were going to get a happy ending and have your genitals massaged people would. The only difference is the part of your body that's getting massaged.

Sex is not a simple thing for humans to navigate. It's a very complicated subject despite (Or maybe because of ) the amount of time we spend thinking about it. Throw money into the mix and it gets even more complicated.

Consent is tricky sometimes and when you bring in that people are consenting because of money it bring into question what consent really means.

Just because a sex act is transactional doesn't make it immoral despite what some people argue. However there is the possibility for coercion and other abuses.

I don't know if the perfect regulatory system exists but if it did it would protect women who want to work in the sex industry whilst penalising those who want to force women to do so and protecting the victims of that coercion.

orourkeda1977 · 23-05-2019 11:18am

I'm totally going here.

Imagine all that spicy poon for 70 blips. Thats amazing

Grayson · 23-05-2019 11:20am

Zorya wrote: »

It is a huge and booming industry - trafficking humans, and many of them children. It's so ugly to think about. I don't feel torn on it anymore, though yes like you I used to think it would be best to legalise it. But it just seems that the subterranean appetite for degradation and abuse is too great and cannot be controlled that way. Cannot understand how people fund it.

You're assuming that people who have sex with sexworkers just want to abuse and degrade them?

Zorya · 23-05-2019 11:27am

Grayson wrote: »

You're assuming that people who have sex with sexworkers just want to abuse and degrade them?

And you seem to be simplifying my assumptions.

Just so you're clear...
I think sex is yummy.
I think there are independent consorts offering sexual services in dignified circumstances and I think that is both possible and useful.
I think that with the huge and growing numbers of sex slaves involved in prostitution it means that regulation or legalisation is a very sticky problem.
I think that the act of having nice kind sex with a trafficked sex slave is an oxymoron.

Zorya · 23-05-2019 11:31am

orourkeda1977 wrote: »

I'm totally going here.

Imagine all that spicy poon for 70 blips. Thats amazing

Yeah especially when they have infected gunge rolling down their legs and have to use anaesthetic cream in their vaginas and anuses to make the prolonged and repeated and violent penetration bearable. Sexy.

ohnonotgmail · 23-05-2019 11:31am

Zorya wrote: »

And you seem to be simplifying my assumptions.

Just so you're clear...
I think sex is yummy.
I think there are independent consorts offering sexual services in dignified circumstances and I think that is both possible and useful.
I think that with the huge and growing numbers of sex slaves involved in prostitution it means that regulation or legalisation is a very sticky problem.
I think that the act of having nice kind sex with a trafficked sex slave is an oxymoron.

So your issue is with women being trafficked and not with prostitution then? do i understand you correctly? if so then tackle the trafficking. Criminalising prostitution does nothing to prevent women being trafficked and harms the women who want to do sex work.

Zorya · 23-05-2019 11:35am

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

So your issue is with women being trafficked and not with prostitution then? do i understand you correctly? if so then tackle the trafficking. Criminalising prostitution does nothing to prevent women being trafficked and harms the women who want to do sex work.

Perhaps you could take a look at the analyses I linked which find that decriminalising prostitution not only does nothing to prevent women (and children) being trafficked it INCREASES it. By rather a lot.

dotsman · 23-05-2019 11:42am

Zorya wrote: »

A few articles I read recently got me thinking again about something that has long bothered me.

...

Assume you are trolling. If not, I suggest you expand your reading beyond BS sources that have a huge agenda and history of lying.

Gimme A Pound · 23-05-2019 11:42am

orourkeda1977 wrote: »

I'm totally going here.

Imagine all that spicy poon for 70 blips. Thats amazing

So bad-ass. :rolleyes:

Gimme A Pound · 23-05-2019 11:43am

dotsman wrote: »

Assume you are trolling. If not, I suggest you expand your reading beyond BS sources that have a huge agenda and history of lying.

Ah the protesting too much - there it is.

.Charlo · 23-05-2019 11:44am

I read somewhere recently scientists were teaching monkeys the concept of money, they first started exchanging money for food, not long after that they were paying female monkeys for sex.

nozzferrahhtoo · 23-05-2019 11:45am

Zorya wrote: »

In 2017 Germany outlawed flat rate brothels.

To be honest I am not sure what exactly they made illegal or illegal. Because the kind of environment you describe still appears to be in full swing here. Perhaps what was outlawed was some particular pricing structure, but the practice appears to be continuing pretty much the same as you describe it.

The clubs for it appear to be called "FKK" here and you basically still go and pay an entrance free, shower, and then go hang out with many women any of whom you can petition for sex in any combination. There even if one of them in Frankfurt which is still known to not require the use of condoms or other protections.

So much of what you describe in the OP is still in practice. I guess just how they charge their rates is somehow different? But other than that, it sounds like what we still have over here.

TLDR: Whatever was changed in 2017, I am not sure it changed much in what actually goes on.

Zorya wrote: »

What occurs to me is who are the people who are comfortable buying sex in such situations?
How can ordinary people get off when they must suspect that the prostitutes are basically slaves?

I guess the answer to the "who are these people" is the same answer to "who are the people" who buy illegal cigarettes despite the money going to fund violent underground crime or paramilitary groups. Or the people who pirate music or other media. Or the people who buy plastic they do not need, despite knowing about environmental issues, and then waste it and buy more.

Quite often people are ignorant, or just allow themselves be ignorant, of what they see before them. Especially in the moment of a single transaction. They see the sex worker (a term I do not take issue with as you seem to) or the package of cheap cigarettes, or the cheap movie, or their Favorites shower gel in a black plastic bottle (which I am informed is the worst kind, but haven't checked the truth of that yet) and make the transaction in the moment.

How many people actively stopped going to Nail Bars when it was found people there were trafficked too? This is not a problem unique to the sex industry. As the Guardian wrote "Nail bars are havens for modern slavery.". So to use your thread in the same way on this..... who are these people comfortable getting their nails done in such situations? How can ordinary people show off their pretty nails when they must suspect that the person who did the work was basically a slave?

TLDR: People often do not see the bigger global picture, when making a single micro transaction in that realm. I do not think it makes millions of people "monsters" to use your term. I think it just means there is a failure in evolved human intuitions to effectively parse the issues.

However most people most of the time do make the moral choice when given genuine options to do so. Or at least I like to believe they do. So certainly one strong and legitimate way to attempt to undermine the problems you raise here are a well legalised and well regulated sex industry. Many countries do one but not the other. Many do neither. And that is a problem.

If I as a consumer were to go to a sex worker tonight, what options do I have to ethically source the product/service? Is there ANY methodology or standards or certification or process by which I might ascertain the likelihood I am getting legitimate above board service compared to a cajoled, blackmailed or trafficked black market one? Currently I am not aware of any such system either here (I live in Germany) or in Ireland.

TLDR: Give people the tools and the environments to source their products and services ethically and they often will. And it gives our police the tools and potentials to more effectively target the rest.

Zorya wrote: »

Of course it's powerful SC, but you are not comparing like with like. Disassociating from the invisible child making your clothes has got to be on a completely different level from disassociating with the enslaved person in front of one and with whom one is having sex. ?

Is it that different however? The person with whom one is having sex does not have "slave" written on their forehead any more than the clothing you are donning has "made in china using child labour" on it.

Sure in one the person is right in front of you, and the other is not, but that does not mean their plight..... if any.... is any more visible. If I visit a sex worker tonight I have almost no indication about how willingly, or unwillingly, she entered the trade. I am functionally and effectively just as blind as I am to the little hands that made my T-Shirt.

Zorya wrote: »

I saw that too, and I can understand the urge. Regulated protected work would be good. But I think it's impossible.

I am not so pessimistic about what is possible. But I also wonder if there is more in between illegal and legal.... regulated and unregulated.... that is possible then just those extremes.

For example some kind of periodic accreditation done by a psychologist and a medical doctor would give the chance to catch people who are not there willingly, and also give the consumer the tools to source the service ethically.

Such accreditation of course is no 100% guarantee, but does it need to be???

For example here in Germany when you are caught drink driving over a certain limit there is a process called the MPU (colloquially referred to as "The idiot test") that you must pass before receiving your license again. It involved an examination by a psychologist and a medical doctor who then certify that there is no reason to expect it likely that you will do it again.

This is no guarantee you will not do it again. But it has had an impact on incidents of re-offending. It is a useful tool.

Is something similar possible with sex work? Has it ever been tried?

Before we declare most people do not give a crap, should we not find ways to afford them the tools by which they CAN give a crap?

Zorya wrote: »

Most prostitutes are sex slaves, not sex workers.

Zorya wrote: »

Most studies seem to show that legalisation increases trafficking.

I am short on time at this exact minute so I can not read your studies until later, though I note they are news paper articles not studies. However there are TWO main concerns I would be engaging with when I do read the studies and news paper opinion pieces based on previous experience.

1) Quite often the figures given are not comparing like with like. We often see a sentence like "There are 100,000 sex workers in this countrys, and 80,000 have been trafficked" which makes it sound like 80% of the sex workers are trafficked. But ACTUALLY what they are saying is there are CURRENTLY 100,000 sex workers in this country and 80,000 sex workers have been known in the past to have been trafficked. In other words it is not AT ALL that 80,000 of the current 100,000 sex workers were trafficked. Maybe for all we know 40, 20, 4, 1 or even 0 thousand of the current workers were.

TLDR: Be sure what each count is actually a count of and watch for when one figure is current and the other figure is overall, and they are being compared as if they are alike.

2) When claiming a surge or increase how is this being ascertained. Take abortion for example. We often hear that legalising abortion increases the number of abortions. What ACTUALLY happens however is the number of abortions stays the same..... or even falls........ but the number reported that we are actually aware of increases because people are not hiding them due to their being illegal.

TLDR: Has the number of sex workers and/or trafficking actually increased or have the figures just become more accurate in the new environment?

nozzferrahhtoo · 23-05-2019 11:47am

Former Observer wrote: »

Despite the trend in orthodox liberal thinking that 'sex work' is just like any other work, it is not.

It depends what you mean by "just like" though because MOST work is not "just like" other work. The work a police officer does is hardly in any way like the work a waiter does or the work a computer programmer does or a soldier or a tax collector.

So pointing out "sex work" (SW) is not like other work says little at all really. A more useful question is.... what work IS it like and while I stole it from someone else I think the comparison to Freelance Masseurs (FMs) is useful here in that

A) Both are freelance

Both tend to have a location they go to work, or they go to the client
C) Both tend to charge hourly.
D) Both tend to use parts of their body to physically manipulate parts of the clients body, for purposes such as pleasure and relief.
E) Both can be at risk in that environment from malicious or deranged clients.

And so on. The question then being, why should one be treated legally or socially or effectively much different from the other????

Former Observer wrote: »

A lot of the defenders of 'sex work' would hate to see their own daughters selling their bodies.

You could say the same about MANY careers though if we are essentially discussing NIMBYism. There are MANY careers that people would effectively defend the existence of, but not at all want their own children to end up in. And it would be a long list.

For me I have the courage of my convictions. I would not AT ALL take issue with my son or daughter (I have one of each) going into any kind of sex work so long as I can be sure I as a parent gave them all the tools and education and facilities to make that choice, and they themselves did make that choice.

I would much prefer my children end up in a career THEY openly chose, that is distasteful to me..... than I would want them to end up in a career I am strongly proud of that was in any way foisted on them against their will.

THAT is good parenting to me and my purpose as a parent. To grow them to the point they can make their own choices, and then support them in those choices when they do.

RobertKK · 23-05-2019 11:54am

In Amsterdam's famous red light district, a number of years ago the mayor cited criminals using the red light district for trafficked women, when he closed down some establishments.
Now I read as I looked it up before posting, I see the current mayor is to ban tours of the red light district for tourists from 2020, the reason being it is disrespectful, which one would have to agree with, even if one wanted to question the profession.

Zorya · 23-05-2019 11:54am

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

To be honest I am not sure what exactly they made illegal or illegal. Because the kind of environment you describe still appears to be in full swing here. Perhaps what was outlawed was some particular pricing structure, but the practice appears to be continuing pretty much the same as you describe it.

The clubs for it appear to be called "FKK" here and you basically still go and pay an entrance free, shower, and then go hang out with many women any of whom you can petition for sex in any combination. There even if one of them in Frankfurt which is still known to not require the use of condoms or other protections.

So much of what you describe in the OP is still in practice. I guess just how they charge their rates is somehow different? But other than that, it sounds like what we still have over here.

TLDR: Whatever was changed in 2017, I am not sure it changed much in what actually goes on.

I guess the answer to the "who are these people" is the same answer to "who are the people" who buy illegal cigarettes despite the money going to fund violent underground crime or paramilitary groups. Or the people who pirate music or other media. Or the people who buy plastic they do not need, despite knowing about environmental issues, and then waste it and buy more.

Quite often people are ignorant, or just allow themselves be ignorant, of what they see before them. Especially in the moment of a single transaction. They see the sex worker (a term I do not take issue with as you seem to) or the package of cheap cigarettes, or the cheap movie, or their Favorites shower gel in a black plastic bottle (which I am informed is the worst kind, but haven't checked the truth of that yet) and make the transaction in the moment.

How many people actively stopped going to Nail Bars when it was found people there were trafficked too? This is not a problem unique to the sex industry. As the Guardian wrote "Nail bars are havens for modern slavery.". So to use your thread in the same way on this..... who are these people comfortable getting their nails done in such situations? How can ordinary people show off their pretty nails when they must suspect that the person who did the work was basically a slave?

TLDR: People often do not see the bigger global picture, when making a single micro transaction in that realm. I do not think it makes millions of people "monsters" to use your term. I think it just means there is a failure in evolved human intuitions to effectively parse the issues.

However most people most of the time do make the moral choice when given genuine options to do so. Or at least I like to believe they do. So certainly one strong and legitimate way to attempt to undermine the problems you raise here are a well legalised and well regulated sex industry. Many countries do one but not the other. Many do neither. And that is a problem.

If I as a consumer were to go to a sex worker tonight, what options do I have to ethically source the product/service? Is there ANY methodology or standards or certification or process by which I might ascertain the likelihood I am getting legitimate above board service compared to a cajoled, blackmailed or trafficked black market one? Currently I am not aware of any such system either here (I live in Germany) or in Ireland.

TLDR: Give people the tools and the environments to source their products and services ethically and they often will. And it gives our police the tools and potentials to more effectively target the rest.

Is it that different however? The person with whom one is having sex does not have "slave" written on their forehead any more than the clothing you are donning has "made in china using child labour" on it.

Sure in one the person is right in front of you, and the other is not, but that does not mean their plight..... if any.... is any more visible. If I visit a sex worker tonight I have almost no indication about how willingly, or unwillingly, she entered the trade. I am functionally and effectively just as blind as I am to the little hands that made my T-Shirt.

I am not so pessimistic about what is possible. But I also wonder if there is more in between illegal and legal.... regulated and unregulated.... that is possible then just those extremes.

For example some kind of periodic accreditation done by a psychologist and a medical doctor would give the chance to catch people who are not there willingly, and also give the consumer the tools to source the service ethically.

Such accreditation of course is no 100% guarantee, but does it need to be???

For example here in Germany when you are caught drink driving over a certain limit there is a process called the MPU (colloquially referred to as "The idiot test") that you must pass before receiving your license again. It involved an examination by a psychologist and a medical doctor who then certify that there is no reason to expect it likely that you will do it again.

This is no guarantee you will not do it again. But it has had an impact on incidents of re-offending. It is a useful tool.

Is something similar possible with sex work? Has it ever been tried?

Before we declare most people do not give a crap, should we not find ways to afford them the tools by which they CAN give a crap?

I am short on time at this exact minute so I can not read your studies until later, though I note they are news paper articles not studies. However there are TWO main concerns I would be engaging with when I do read the studies and news paper opinion pieces based on previous experience.

1) Quite often the figures given are not comparing like with like. We often see a sentence like "There are 100,000 sex workers in this countrys, and 80,000 have been trafficked" which makes it sound like 80% of the sex workers are trafficked. But ACTUALLY what they are saying is there are CURRENTLY 100,000 sex workers in this country and 80,000 sex workers have been known in the past to have been trafficked. In other words it is not AT ALL that 80,000 of the current 100,000 sex workers were trafficked. Maybe for all we know 40, 20, 4, 1 or even 0 thousand of the current workers were.

TLDR: Be sure what each count is actually a count of and watch for when one figure is current and the other figure is overall, and they are being compared as if they are alike.

2) When claiming a surge or increase how is this being ascertained. Take abortion for example. We often hear that legalising abortion increases the number of abortions. What ACTUALLY happens however is the number of abortions stays the same..... or even falls........ but the number reported that we are actually aware of increases because people are not hiding them due to their being illegal.

TLDR: Has the number of sex workers and/or trafficking actually increased or have the figures just become more accurate in the new environment?

Either you are a fast typer or you are not particularly squeezed for time.

Two of the links are studies, two are articles.

Otherwise your comment generally illustrates the cultivation of moral relativism to a extraordinarily developed degree.

nozzferrahhtoo · 23-05-2019 11:59am

Zorya wrote: »

Either you are a fast typer or you are not particularly squeezed for time.

The former. I type insanely fast. I have never entered into competitions for this because none have presented themselves. But I reckon I would shock a few people. My boss often jokes "Where is that machine gun I hear coming from". Though the humour, small as it is, is lost in translation I think.

The speed at which you read my post before replying, assuming you even did, is just as impressive to me though since we are commenting on each other capabilities. 7 minutes, if that, to read the entire thing and evaluate it's contents in a closing one liner? That is impressive.

Zorya wrote: »

Two of the links are studies, two are articles.

I will get to them for sure, all of them, but I am more pressed for time as I read slower than I type especially when I evaluate the results of scientific studies which takes more than merely reading the opening and closing paragraphs.

But the above two concerns are important. I will reject as useless ANY study that does not make it clear they accounted for those two issues, and how. And for damn good reason.

Zorya wrote: »

Otherwise your comment generally illustrates the cultivation of moral relativism to a extraordinarily developed degree.

Vague sentence you have not actually anchored in any way to anything I wrote. I suspect it is meaningless knee jerk filler. But by all means qualify it if you wish.

Who Are The People Buying Sex This Way?

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