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Irish, Romanian-born children

  • 16-05-2019 6:53pm
    #1
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭


    By pure co-incidence, i have spoken to two people recently whom I've almost simultaneously learned were adopted from Romania in the 1990s.
    I've known one of them for a couple of years, but she explained that she prefers not to dwell on it. The other guy, a colleague, dropped it casually into the conversation as we were speaking about holidays (he hasn't been to Romania, and isn't interested in it).

    Apparently, the majority of adopted children who were brought to Ireland from Romania started from 1990, when the Ceasescu regime fell and thousands of children were discovered in secret orphanages, until about 2000, when the arrivals slowed down. That places them in a demographic which means they are now almost all adults, some in their early 30s (probably adopted as toddlers).

    These children were themselves victims of Ceasescu, who had banned abortion and contraception. Needless to say that for political and economic reasons, there was no such thing as taking the metaphorical 'boat to England' either.

    When I was a kid myself, I had known, or known, a few kids who were adopted from Romania; it didn't seem unusual at the time, I don't know why. But isn't it striking to think that there are thousands of children (hundreds in Ireland) scattered all across Europe as de-facto refugee babies, separated from their families by a tyrant, and who may still be separated by fake ID papers, believing themselves to be someone they are not.

    I find the whole thing as disturbing as it is fascinating. The act of adopting these babies in the first place was a wonderful thing to do -- many were living in unspeakably abject poverty and were mistreated. But that doesn't take away the cruelty of perhaps wanting to trace your biological relatives, and being unable to so do.


Comments

  • #2
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    My aunt adopted a child from a Romanian orphanage around 1990.
    The child's biological parent had to give permission for the child to be adopted so there is plenty of documentation. In fact, the first child they wanted to adopt they couldn't because the biological mother wouldn't allow it.


  • #3
    sabat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,896 ✭✭✭sabat


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

    These children were themselves victims of Ceasescu, who had banned abortion and contraception.

    Ok...


  • #4
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    bubblypop wrote: »
    My aunt adopted a child from a Romanian orphanage around 1990.
    The child's biological parent had to give permission for the child to be adopted so there is plenty of documentation. In fact, the first child they wanted to adopt they couldn't because the biological mother wouldn't allow it.
    I wasn't sure whether to emphasise this, but wasn't the very reason the adopted children stopped coming due to corruption in the orphanages/ local authorities? The Romanian government had to shut it down.

    https://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/the-forgotten-children-26213605.html


  • #5
    ILoveYourVibes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,202 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    sabat wrote: »
    Ok...


    In fairness that is what Dev did. And at least Romanian women got a say.


  • #6
    ILoveYourVibes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,202 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    I wasn't sure whether to emphasise this, but wasn't the very reason the adopted children stopped coming due to corruption in the orphanages/ local authorities? The Romanian government had to shut it down.

    https://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/the-forgotten-children-26213605.html


    I thought they slowed down because there were less healthy orphans living standards rose and contraception abortion etc was allowed.


    Ceasescu also promoted early marriage and made divorce difficult. People were supposed to get married at 16.

    A lot of the time the young couple couldn't support their family etc. And with contraception being illegal etc.

    Abortion and contraception where made legal in the Romanian revolution in 1989.


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  • #7
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,644 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    By pure co-incidence, i have spoken to two people recently whom I've almost simultaneously learned were adopted from Romania in the 1990s.
    I've known one of them for a couple of years, but she explained that she prefers not to dwell on it. The other guy, a colleague, dropped it casually into the conversation as we were speaking about holidays (he hasn't been to Romania, and isn't interested in it).

    Apparently, the majority of adopted children who were brought to Ireland from Romania started from 1990, when the Ceasescu regime fell and thousands of children were discovered in secret orphanages, until about 2000, when the arrivals slowed down. That places them in a demographic which means they are now almost all adults, some in their early 30s (probably adopted as toddlers).

    These children were themselves victims of Ceasescu, who had banned abortion and contraception. Needless to say that for political and economic reasons, there was no such thing as taking the metaphorical 'boat to England' either.

    When I was a kid myself, I had known, or known, a few kids who were adopted from Romania; it didn't seem unusual at the time, I don't know why. But isn't it striking to think that there are thousands of children (hundreds in Ireland) scattered all across Europe as de-facto refugee babies, separated from their families by a tyrant, and who may still be separated by fake ID papers, believing themselves to be someone they are not.

    I find the whole thing as disturbing as it is fascinating. The act of adopting these babies in the first place was a wonderful thing to do -- many were living in unspeakably abject poverty and were mistreated. But that doesn't take away the cruelty of perhaps wanting to trace your biological relatives, and being unable to so do.

    Thanks to the RCC there are sadly Irish people all over the world who were adopted (some taken away from their mothers) for the same reasons.


  • #8
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    those kids were victims of not being terminated


  • #9
    Ruraldweller56
    Registered Users Posts: 938 ✭✭✭Ruraldweller56


    sabat wrote: »
    Ok...

    Victims of not being aborted.

    Jesus I'm lost for words with these people.


  • #10
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,644 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    those kids were victims of not being terminated

    What???


  • #11
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,679 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I don't think the children were victims because abortion wasn't permitted. Surely that's not what you mean Tyrant?


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  • #12
    gormdubhgorm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,902 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    These children were themselves victims of Ceasescu, who had banned abortion and contraception. Needless to say that for political and economic reasons,

    These children would not have been born only for Ceasescu. Also many are giving people in other countries who were unable to have children have the joy of having a child.
    I believe many were adopted in Ireland because it was easier than adopting an Irish child.

    I am reading a book at the moment called 'Freakonomics' it explains that: because Ceasescu banned abortion this lead to generations of youngsters who ended up over-throwing his regime. On a side note it also said that legalised abortion led to a drop in crime rate in America (rowe v wade) because the poorer people could now afford them, and had access to them.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • #13
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I don't think the children were victims because abortion wasn't permitted. Surely that's not what you mean Tyrant?
    It is. Gosh, I'm starting to regret my username now.

    What I mean is, the mothers of these children shouldn't have had to have give birth to children they hadn't wanted. Obviously that doesn't mean the children weren't deserving of a happy life after they were born -- which is exactly the kind of backwards thinking that caused them to end up in these miserable orphanages in the first place.
    gormdubhgorm wrote: »
    These children would not have been born only for Ceasescu.
    Yeah but that's a bit like the Great Beethoven Fallacy

    https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Great_Beethoven_fallacy

    The only solution that is implied by belief in the Great Beethoven 'problem' is that we should all be shagging around us with abandon, because we ought not be depriving the future of great people.


  • #14
    gormdubhgorm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,902 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    Yeah but that's a bit like the Great Beethoven Fallacy

    https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Great_Beethoven_fallacy

    The only solution that is implied by belief in the Great Beethoven 'problem' is that we should all be shagging around us with abandon, because we ought not be depriving the future of great people.

    I don't really see it as a 'fallacy' because I have a real life example.
    A relation of mine adopted his son into another family years ago. Child out of wedlock way back etc.
    No one knew about it until recent years.
    The child who was born ended up doing very well for himself having a successful career, with a well to do family abroad. There are are two ways of looking at it. If a child is brought up in a good environment invariably the child has a chance of doing well. Maybe not at Beethoven levels, but have a good life (a life) nonetheless.

    As I said the book' Freakconomics' said that Ceuseau by banning abortion lead to his own downfall. As there were more generations of radical youth to protest against him as a consequence.

    Ironically this is not viewed as one of the 'what if's' in the 'Beethoven fallacy' you list above :D

    Edit: I was also neighbours to two kids who were adopted from Romania back in the 90's, they grew up to be fine well adjusted kids.
    Should they thank Ceuseau or curse him?

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • #15
    Ruraldweller56
    Registered Users Posts: 938 ✭✭✭Ruraldweller56


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    It is. Gosh, I'm starting to regret my username now.

    What I mean is, the mothers of these children shouldn't have had to have give birth to children they hadn't wanted. Obviously that doesn't mean the children weren't deserving of a happy life after they were born -- which is exactly the kind of backwards thinking that caused them to end up in these miserable orphanages in the first place.

    Yeah but that's a bit like the Great Beethoven Fallacy

    https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Great_Beethoven_fallacy

    The only solution that is implied by belief in the Great Beethoven 'problem' is that we should all be shagging around us with abandon, because we ought not be depriving the future of great people.

    Really shows the pro abortion mindset. Children are victims of being born.

    A disgusting and reprehensible way to look at another human beings life.

    But I guess I wouldn't understand because I'm not a sh1tlib tw@t


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