Is there a point to making children learn irish in school anymore?

Asok · 19-07-2001 4:08am #1

Sure Does`nt seem to be i spent 14 years learning it and i`m pretty sure i failed it in the leavin

I might look like a fool but i`m really a blithering idiot

Molly · 19-07-2001 4:33am

Dé gnáth nuair a théipeann tú i scrúdu is tríd ganntanais foghlaim

Bard style translation

Usually when u learn stuff u dont fail it.

Doctúir · 19-07-2001 9:21am

Níl sa saol seo ach ceo is ní bheimíd beo ach seal beag gearr.
->Life's a b*tch and then you die.

Bard · 19-07-2001 4:42pm

I agree with Molly.

You might have spent 14 years attending classes on the subject, but if you FAILED the Leaving Cert exam in Irish then that kinda indicates that you didn't LEARN it.

Yes, there's a point in "making children learn" (a.k.a. "teaching them") Irish... the point is so that they'll know it, basically... one could also argue that the point is also to try to stop the language from dying out completely by ensuring that it is passed on properly through the generations...

I believe we've been there already though...

Bard

Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.

Asok · 19-07-2001 6:45pm

Naw u see i was always pretty good at irish just probably failed it cause my spoken isnt up to scratch (Dan had to dictate his leaving cert to a scribe)I just dont see the point in learning a language we are never going to use when we could be using the class time to learn another language such as german,french,italian etc etc.Dont get me wrong i like the irish language but i just dont feel it should be compulsary for us all and should be on a voluntary basis like german or french is

I might look like a fool but i`m really a blithering idiot

Molly · 20-07-2001 2:43am

Tagann sé seo síos go dtí an díospóir idir scoil Béarla agus scoil Lán Gaelach. Da mbéidh gach scoil lan gaelach, ní bheadh an fadhb seo ag daoine agus béidh an gaeilge láidir arís.Dá dtósoimid ag foghlaim francais agus géarmanais sa bhúnscoil, bheadh se cabhair an-mhór. Na daione a imríonn cluichí ríomhaire ar an idirlinn liom ón nGéarmáin, an Fhrainc, an Olainn agus an Bhéilg is iad no daioned atá abálta caint cuid maith teanga. Is Feidir leo caint béarla i bhfad níos fearr na féidir le 99 fan gcéad den tír seo caint i teanga tír eile san eoraip. Fágann sé seo Éire i bhfad taobh thiar na tír eile san eoraip ins an caint i cúpla teanga agus ba cheart do gach duine bheith abalta caint i níos mo ná dha teanga

This comes down to the old irish school vs english school debate. If schools were made fully irish you wouldnt have this problem and it would help establish the language. The introduction of french and german at primary school level would be a huge bonus. People i play online games with from france, germany, holland and belgium have a far superior grasp of english then 99% of ireland has of there languages. (yes i know we can't do dutch or flemish in school but there examples) Which leaves us as a country far behind europe in being multi-lingual, which everybody should be.

I'm on the outside, I'm looking in, I can see through you, see your true colours, cos inside your ugly, your ugly like me, cos i can see through you, see who's the real you.

Chaos-Engine · 20-07-2001 3:16am

Just some short points
I didn't do irish for my leaving
I was exempt from it.
I believe everyone should be able to choose to do irish or not... having it on a voluntary basis after the Junior Cert(like me) would be excellent
MAybe the Minister can include this in their planned Educational reform.... Yes i also agree that Ireland is crap when it comes to languages.... it isn't just learning Continental languages from Primary. But we need a more "English as a foreign Language"
approach when it comes to learning languges in this country... Perhaps a more hardcore move... all Primary teachers r ment to be Fluent speckers of Irish... how about all Primary schools be made Irish specking... This would definitly get the languge into Everyone as i know that the French schools(here in éire) do this for the French language(its a better example than Irish schools)....
Irish has to be used on everything Public... All things like Milk cartins should be named Báinne, etc etc... we should be able to use large amounts of irish in everyday life(not just specking it)... perhaps these measures would help but some how i see those Fluent Irish specking Primary teachers going on strike...

"Information is Ammunition"
Choas Engine
Email: choas@netshop.ie
ICQ: 34896460

tHE vAGGABOND · 20-07-2001 4:44pm

The Irish Leaving is considered one of the best education system in the world because it is broad and people who pass have a clue about a broad range of subjects..

If you want something practical then do the Leaving Cert Applied...

With regard to Irish - Im all for keeping it, and it will be a cold day in hell before they get rid of it I'd say

Asok · 20-07-2001 8:24pm

Originally posted by tHE vAGGABOND:

With regard to Irish - Im all for keeping it, and it will be a cold day in hell before they get rid of it I'd say

I`m all for keeping irish except i dont see the point in making people who have no interest in it at all have to do it (Remembers half his class taking foundation and sleeping for the last two years)when they could be doing a subject they liked.As for the compulsary science thing bard that is v.annoying i had to do phys/chem(no phys class)and well we didnt have a cutting edge teach(he denied my existance for 2 years

).As for making it part or everyday life that would be excellent as from an early age you would associate things to the irish word for them

I might look like a fool but i`m really a blithering idiot

Bard · 20-07-2001 8:36pm

Originally posted by Danny:
As for the compulsary science thing bard that is v.annoying

Oh I didn't have any problem with having to do Physics... didn't particularly like the subject, but didn't mind it all that much. I was just drawing an analogy between compulsory subjects that you don't end up actually using- that's all.

If pushed to decide one way or the other, I'd say that the learning of Irish by Irish children should remain compulsory in schools.

Bard

Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.

Asok · 20-07-2001 9:25pm

Ah i get ya.well i`ve thrown in all my 2cents lol maybe it should be compulsary but then why not make other languages compulsary ah well to live in a perfect world

Bard · 21-07-2001 12:04am

Originally posted by Danny:
Dont get me wrong i like the irish language

That should be reason enough to want to learn it, right?

As for it being compulsory, - that's a thorny and much-debated issue. Why was it compulsory, for example, for me to take one of the science subjects to Leaving Cert (Physics, Chemistry or Biology - I took Physics) when I'm "never going to use it" in my work or every day life? ( I work as a web developer - WHEN I work, that is

) - It could also be asked about other subjects. Maybe not a great analogy, - but it's the first one that sprung to mind...

Saying you're 'never going to use' a subject is slightly inherently flawed anyway as you can't really know that 100%. I know I certainly never *have* used it in professional life (okay... once, when I had to translate a web site into Irish, but let's discount that for a moment) - but if I ever wanted to become a teacher (which is a definite possibility), then it will be handy having gotten my C in Honours Irish at the Leaving Certificate.

Still... I couldn't commit myself one way or another on whether or not the subject should remain compulsory... I'd like to see it stay that way in once sense- in that it helps the survival of the language - on the other hand though, - I don't think people should have something forced on them that they've no real interest in or use for. It's a tricky subject... and we've been through it before.

Bard

Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.

Bard · 21-07-2001 1:27am

Originally posted by Danny:
Ah i get ya.well i`ve thrown in all my 2cents lol maybe it should be compulsary but then why not make other languages compulsary ah well to live in a perfect world

um... because Irish is our language... French, German, Spanish (etc.) aren't. That's why it would be compulsory and the others aren't.

As far as I'm aware, though, it is compulsory that you take ONE other European language in secondary school - you're usually given a choice though, of at least two languages.

i.e.: I don't think you can get through secondary school in ireland without having taken French, German, Spanish or Italian (or possibly one of a -few- other choices) to Leaving Cert.

Do please correct me if I'm wrong...

Bard

Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.

Molly · 21-07-2001 3:29am

Common mistake there bard. You need a foreign language to get into a university so many people see it as compulsary, but its not.

Slydice · 21-07-2001 4:35am

It's been a whole yr and a bit since i completed the leaving in an english landguage school, 6 years after leaving a GaelScoil.

I can safly say that my level of irish is progressivly lowering,

When i read irish i can understand what is being said but trying to talk it or type it with proficiency is increasingly becoming difficult.

There is no outlet for me where i can really speak the landguage, and this is the only real place where i converse using irish words at all any more

For the leaving i did German as anoter landguage my primary reason for learning it was, I can goto germany some day and be able to speak the native landguage.

But I already LIVE in Ireland, I already speak the majority native landguage

Are we really, futilly preventing the enevitable?

*****=============*****
Sorry No translation

Asok · 22-07-2001 12:54am

Yeah we were the last year to do german as they have decided to discontinue good auld deutch because in their words "French has a better history with the school"<--??? lol.As for being able to speak another language in another country being a german i`ve been there a good few times and u will pick up the language in maybe 2-3 months and thats pure fluency so if we were to speak irish in our own country it would be no great task because if u are in a country thats speaking a "Foreign"(not your primary language) you will pick it up in a very quick time especially if you grow up in that kind of enviroment

I might look like a fool but i`m really a blithering idiot

solo1 · 22-07-2001 5:08pm

The purpose of a language is to be a communication tool. Languages are not designed with saving a cultural heritage in mind. Is it any wonder that the Irish language is failing in this regard?

We have to disentangle the notions of our culture, our heritage and our national language, despite what has been ingrained into us from birth. We must unlearn what we have learned.

We have a culture to be proud of, and a heritage that most other countries envy, but this language thing - let it go.

I believe that Irish should be taught on the same basis as any other foreign language at schools. Because, let's face it, it is a foreign language.

This is not supposed to be hurtful to anyone, it's just the way I see it.

popinfresh · 26-07-2001 11:08pm

Well I think it would be nice to know the language of our fore-fathers, but I don't like the way Irish affects your leaving-cert. I mean, why should our future jobs have anything to with an extinct language.

Unless we get a job as a...er..em, wait there's no logical reason why knowing Irish should affect what job we get
However, I do think that it should be an optional language (eg-German/french), but I don't see the need for an Irish class every-day of the week, we should have more math classes(actually a beneficial subject)
But don't worry all you islanders, I also don't see the need for English classes, that should be just banned. I mean, how is memorising poems and listning to "hidden meanings" in poems going to affect anything you do.
But I'm not actually against Irish, it's great to know it, I just don't think it should affect our leaving-cert

Asok · 28-07-2001 11:03pm

(Don`t get daniel started about english class lol) that was the greatest waste of time ever although if i`m ever in a life threatening situation where i`m trying to tell the nice german man that i didnt mean to grap his gf`s **** i`ll have a nice english poem to regale him with rofl

I might look like a fool but i`m really a blithering idiot

Gróibhear · 30-07-2001 8:41pm

Mar Mheiriceánach atá ag staidéar na Gaeilge le breis agus seacht mbliana, caithfidh mé a rá nach dtuigim cén fáth gur gá é cur ina luí ar Éireannaigh óga an teanga a fhoghlaim in aon chor. Níl aon locht ar an teanga ach easpa cainteoirí.

Tá deis mhór agaibh nach bhfuil ag daoine eile a chónaíonn taobh amuigh d'Éirinn. Ba mhór liom an "rogha" sin a bheith agam. Ach, faraor, níl.

Agus, a Sholo, a chara, TÁ baint an-tábhachtach ann idir an teanga agus an cultúr. Mura bhfuil an Gaeilge agat, níl Gael ach Gall-Ghael thú. Sin do rogha, cinnte. Ach ní hionann an dá rud!

As an American who has been studying Irish for more than seven years, I have to say that I don't understand why it's necessary to persuade young Irish people to learn the language in the first place. The only thing wrong with the language is a lack of speakers.

You have a great opportunity that people living in other countries do not have. I'd love to have that "choice." But, alas, I don't.

And Solo, my friend, there IS a very important connection between language and culture. If you don't know Irish, you're not Irish--you're Anglo-Irish. That's certainly your choice but they're not the same thing!

Gróibhear

Níl meas ar an uisce
go dtriomaítear an
tobar.

solo1 · 30-07-2001 10:49pm

you're not Irish--you're Anglo-Irish.

Only if you define "Anglo-Irish" as someone who is Irish but chooses to speak English. If that is your chosen definition, then fine.

In my little world, however, having been born in Ireland, raised in Ireland, by Irish parents, and having been involved in the promotion of Ireland as a modern self-defining nation at various different levels (political, artistic, etc.) would have been enough to count me as Irish.

Again, you are not alone in your error. A language does not define a heritage. A language is a means of communication.

-Raptor- · 30-07-2001 11:02pm

well said solo,
i agree and think it should be an optional subject

Gróibhear · 31-07-2001 12:03am

"Again, you are not alone in your error. A language does not define a heritage. A language is a means of communication."

Ach cad é a chuirtear in iúl?
But what does a language communicate?

Languages (all languages) communicate much more than concrete thoughts and ideas (e.g., the sky is blue, etc.) Languages also communicate a person's belonging to a particular group or culture and in that sense, they DO manifest particular cultural heritages.

Consider the following:
--My goodness, chap! That's dreadful!
--Hey man! That's a bummer!
--Yo, homie! That's whack!

In all of these examples, all of them English (of a sort), the same basic concept is being communicated. But, the particular dialect colors the expression and places it in a cultural context. If that is true for dialects of a single language, it's even more so between languages.

As a speaker of English born and raised in Ireland, your language and all of the associated values and perceptions that come with it, marks you as belonging to a particular culture--as well as your geneology, geography, etc.

We can argue about what the best label for that culture is--Irish, Anglo-Irish, etc.--but the point is that this culture is different than the "Irish" culture that proceeded it and, yet, lives along side of it. In my opinion, those who are bilingual can more fully participate in Ireland's cultural heritage.

Of course this should be a choice but I don't understand why any self-respecting Irish person would not want to embrace it.

Increasingly, monolingual speakers of English belong more to a common, international, pop-consumer culture--a culture foisted upon the world by us Americans. It's fun. It's modern. But it lacks substance.

If Ireland chooses to go the way of the Yanks (and it seems like they're determined to do so), I have no doubt that the Irish will profit for it. There is also much to be lost.

Is mise, le meas,
Poncán eile

Volvagia · 01-08-2001 12:13am

All I have to say is that you need at least some interest in a language to be able to learn it properly.
Is é on fath go dteipeann in French!!

How appropriate you fight like a Cow!!

solo1 · 02-08-2001 9:15pm

I can speak Irish to 'bate the band', so I think I am party to any influences that are suppposed to be dragged along with that.

I'm sure that your argument is a valid one, and I accept that a language makes up a part of the heritage of any place. But none of that contends my main idea that a language does not define a heritage, which is a mistake that people make. They assume that we cannot be inherently Irish without some native tongue.

I would like to think that the Irish nation has moved beyond defining itself in terms of what it isn't, and by employing a code language to render ourselves even further apart those very elements who would seek to destroy us.

This is our time, and I feel we should move forward with an inclusive attitude. The foisting of the language can serve no real purpose except to recall a time when people actually did use the language, a time of hate and blood.

Is there some way to look forward with the Irish language? Is there some sense of hope that, eventually, people will 'see the light' and start spontaneously speaking the old mother language? Why would they? Why would anyone bother? We already have a perfectly serviceable language. I'll admit that its adoption by our people happened under less than ideal circumstances, but we cannot keep recursing to past injustices to render our current mistakes justifiable.

We live in a modern Ireland. People can speak Irish if they want - why not? But to claim any negative connotations from choosing not to, or to assume that having opinions vehemently opposed to its compulsory teaching is necessarily pejorative is to deny this country its birthright.

Sorry about the long sentences.

Gróibhear · 02-08-2001 11:09pm

"The foisting of the language can serve no real purpose except to recall a time when people actually did use the language, a time of hate and blood."

Solo, a chara,

Is dealramh go gcreideann tú gurb ionann iad an seicteachas agus athbheochan na Gaeilge. Is trua sin. Leis, dá mb'fhíor é gur chuir an teanga tionchar i bhfeidhm ort, bheadh a fhios agat nach bhfuil aon locht uirthi ó thaobh an tsaoil comhaimseartha idirnáisiúnta de.

A mhalairt ar fad, siad an EU an ghluaiseacht do chearta na dteangacha neamhfhorleathana a thuganns an tacaíocht is mó don teanga na laethanta seo--ní rialtas na hÉirinn.

Tá a fhios agam féin é sin, agus is Meiriceánach bómánta mé!

(A thuilleadh le teacht....)

Solo:

It's unfortunate that you apparently think that sectarianism and the language revival are the same thing (or at least intrinsically linked in some way.) Furthermore, if you truly are "party to (its) influences," then you would know that there's nothing wrong with Irish as a far as the modern, international world is concerned.

Quite the opposite, it's the EU and the movement for minority language rights that's giving the language the most support these days--not the government of Ireland.

Even I know that, and I'm a stupid American!

(More to come....)

popinfresh · 02-08-2001 11:43pm

I don't think it's what you say, but how tou day it that matters. Having an Irish accent is more important than knowing the language. If someone saw an American speaking Irish in an American accent, and beside them an Irish person speaking english in an Irish accent, they'd probablysay the latter is Irish.

AzReAl · 02-08-2001 11:48pm

I have learned irish for the better part of my life,I hate it because it has been shoved at me like it acually matters.I am never (ever)going to speak this language again,its not needed.I like ireland(I love it if u will)but I am not going to *WASTE* my time tring to revive a already dead language.People like my irish teach in school,they think we are not irish if we dont learn gealge,he says I am "english".Well I speak english sure enough but not by choice,and just because I speak english does not make me so.Try saying "your english"to an irish american.
Its my first language,I am not going to drop it in the name of patriotism.I am not going to cause the next generation the annoyance of having to learn irish,unless the wish to

Chowmein · 02-08-2001 11:55pm

I think people should learn irish [so it will not die out, it is part of our heratage after all] but only to jr. cert then made to non compusary.
I will not be doing Irish in any exams as i am exempt for it, i think that i may look back and wish i had been able to learn it, and like the french and alot of countrys in the world take pride in being able to speak the toung of there own country. Most kids wil say that they h8 irish, but someday they will be gald of being able to speak at least a few words of there home toung, someting i will not, regratably, be able to do. So people at least try at the subject, u will mostlikey be glad u know some of it.
Also its is not an "Irish is cool, so learn it kids !" reply

AzReAl · 03-08-2001 12:01am

Part of my heritage yes but I am not the kind to start spouting irish in some pub in boston just because no one belives I am irish.I belive I am irish.All that matters

Chowmein · 03-08-2001 12:31am

Also Gróibhear,
So what you are saying is that becuase i cant speak irish, i am not irish.
Well seen as i cant speak irish due to having a learning disablity,Dislexia, i an not, irish, And that any one who is exempt for irish due to learning disablitys are not irish. While it like saying because u are Jewish u are not Irish, or because u are not Asian u are not Chianise [sorry for the spelling of Chianise, i am dislexic].
U could be called raceist for say the above, but not of saying that i cant speak irish there for i am not irish, but u dont know WHY i cant speak irish so with all do respect, ****ing think abit be for u start saying that people are not irish it is REALY offenive.

Is there a point to making children learn irish in school anymore?

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