Irish language - Revamp in Education.

dlofnep · 13-07-2009 11:27pm #1

Just something I've been study for a while. Looking for people's ideas towards revamping the Irish language in school.

This thread is not for people to offer negative thoughts on what their perceive to be a dead language. It is purely for the discussion on how we can change the education in order to ensure that the language is obtained.

Firstly - My opinion on the language. I think that the entire curriculum is failed because it focuses purely on language study rather than language acquisition. You might ask - Well, what is the difference? Study is where you take on the language in a structured format, while acquisition relies heavily on language immersion where you acquire the language by using it and listening to it.

To combat this - I suggest that a subject should be taught through the Irish language, or an Irish conversational class be introduced to school. Preferably, both for much more productive results.

I would argue for this being optional for secondary school, at least for leaving cert level - to let those who like the language keep up with it, and those who have developed a stigma for it to lose that stigma, and hopefully pick it up later in life (Like I have). Perhaps the standard Irish class could remain mandatory, but it's up for debate (as always).

I'm looking for your thoughts on how we can revamp the curriculum, and for new and creative ways for improving the visibility of the language in school.

Le meas,
dlofnep

me_right_one · 13-07-2009 11:38pm

I say just bite the bullet and make all primary schools teach everything through Irish. Wasn't that the whole idea of making primary teachers have fluent Irish in the first place? There's never been a better time. Gaelscoilanna are the most popular they've ever been, most adults under 40 have a decent level of Irish so they could continue to converse with their kids in Irish when they get home, and it wouldn't cost the govt a thing! DO IT COWEN!!

conchubhar1 · 13-07-2009 11:57pm

the increase of marks for the oral was a good/great move

it will increase to 40% in 2010 - add that to 15% aural and the sylabus will be 55% useful for learning the language as a language!

dlofnep · 14-07-2009 12:15am

I think the increase in marks had little to no bearing on the overall visibility or promotion for the language.

Firstly, for those who have problems with Irish - it may create a stigma for them if they can't get into college, based on the results of their Irish.

Secondly - unless focus is placed in class on actual conversational Irish, then increasing the marks for it won't really do all too much. Just my opinion. I think radical change is needed from day 1 in the classroom, rather than at the end of it all at the exams.

I don't even believe that exams in Irish are all that important. I would argue that removal of mandatory examination may put less stress on people and may entice more people to learn the language. Perhaps examination could be optional for those who wanted to attend courses which required Irish. I'm not 100% on this yet though, so don't quote me. Still pondering about it as I read about linguistics.

Krusader · 14-07-2009 12:24am

me_right_one wrote: »

I say just bite the bullet and make all primary schools teach everything through Irish. Wasn't that the whole idea of making primary teachers have fluent Irish in the first place? There's never been a better time. Gaelscoilanna are the most popular they've ever been, most adults under 40 have a decent level of Irish so they could continue to converse with their kids in Irish when they get home, and it wouldn't cost the govt a thing! DO IT COWEN!!

I always thought this should be done aswell
and have more secondary Gaeilscoileanna

pog it · 14-07-2009 12:38am

I'd love to see that coming into being- all primary schools made Gaelscoileanna- but I don't reckon you'd have enough teachers able to xo everything in Irish.. As it is, and this is going by a friend of mine who's a primary school teacher and who is really passionate about it, one of the problems is that the teachers themselves are weak at Irish.

I'm definitely not saying it's a waste of time teaching Irishat primary school obviously- the earlier the exposure the better, but I think we should be concentrating on quality. So I'd like to see really passionate Irish language speakers and teachers going in for a couple of hours a week and giving really good Irish tuition that would have the same effect as 20 hours of their normal teacher.

me_right_one · 14-07-2009 1:32am

You should start a petition dlopfen

dlofnep · 14-07-2009 1:53am

I'd rather just get a discussion going on the topic for now

See what fresh ideas are out there!

conchubhar1 · 14-07-2009 2:02am

well if students have 55% for being able to hold a decent convo for 10 minutes and answer simple questions on a 10 minute aural comphrension they will do the work

the teacher will of course concentrate more on these two as they are by far the biggest parts in relation to marks and ease of getting those marks

conchubhar1 · 14-07-2009 2:05am

dlofnep wrote: »

I don't even believe that exams in Irish are all that important. I would argue that removal of mandatory examination may put less stress on people and may entice more people to learn the language. Perhaps examination could be optional for those who wanted to attend courses which required Irish. I'm not 100% on this yet though, so don't quote me. Still pondering about it as I read about linguistics.

that will not work

for example, me, i would not have sat the irish exam 2 years ago and now i would be one of the biggest advocates of irish and am doing it in college.

people just wont sit and therefore not study/learn a subject/language if they dont have to

fair enough about the underlined part

primary school needs to buck the **** up in regards to irish

i was in college before i knew about the tuiseal ginideach (actualy knew about it - obviously i used it in phrases but only like a parrot) and 1/4 of the tenses ffs

dlofnep · 14-07-2009 2:40am

I think it's debatable when you think of how many people can't hold a conversation 6 months after finishing their oral.

Like I said, I'm not 100% yet on it - I'm still studying and coming to different conclusions everyday. But perhaps if we made exams optional at leaving cert level, it would take the pressure away from learning exam related stuff like poems - and give more time to relax and learn conversational type stuff. An optional exam would be there for someone who wanted to do it. Extra marks may still be considered. Not sure yet.

It's worth discussing at least.

me_right_one · 14-07-2009 3:04am

If all the primary schools did everything exclusively in Irish, then after 8 years, the secondary schools could follow suit. The first of the totally Irish speaking generation, who would be coming through to secondary, could just seamlessly transition into secondary and continue their education, and their everyday spech, through Irish. Then there would be no need for an Irish exam at all, or a least not one like the present one. It would be more akin to the current english exam. No extra points or anything like that. Irish wold be this generations' mainstream language.

Then, when we're all in our eighties, and everybody in the republic is speaking as Gaeilge, they would be saying things like "Poor aul me_right_one, talking english through his senility. Sure thats what he knew", in Irish of course! And they would be discussing english orals on boards!:D

I'd love to see the day.

conchubhar1 · 14-07-2009 3:18am

if the exam is optional - 1% or less would do it and people would not optionaly learn to speak irish in place of studying for the exam

me_right_one - i would honestly give me left one to see that happen but it is not feasible and not even remotely likely to happen, ever.

me_right_one · 14-07-2009 3:22am

I'd give them both and jump on them aswell. It'll happen if people want it to. Who would've thought only 150 years ago, when the tables were completely the other way round, that we'd all be here using english!

B0X · 14-07-2009 3:41am

me_right_one wrote: »

If all the primary schools did everything exclusively in Irish, then after 8 years, the secondary schools could follow suit.

This assumes that all secondary teachers speak fluent Irish which is far from reality.

conchubhar1 · 14-07-2009 4:06am

it was more than 150 years ago when we were all speaking irish

Redbhoy · 14-07-2009 11:09am

conchubhar1 wrote: »

i was in college before i knew about the tuiseal ginideach (actualy knew about it - obviously i used it in phrases but only like a parrot) and 1/4 of the tenses ffs

I agree with a previous poster. Bite the bullet and convert all primary schools to Gaelscoileanna. If this happened we wouldnt have to worry about the Tuiseal Ginideach or Modh Conniollach as it would just come natural.

Dionysus · 14-07-2009 3:16pm

Now we are talking about a thread with huge potential. I'm just after coming back from teaching English this morning. As you all probably know, CLT, Communicative Language Teaching, is used to teach English as a second language in most classrooms today.

It was only when I did the ACELS CELT qualification that I realised that the way Irish was taught in UCD was via CLT (I did the Dioplóma Sa Ghaeilge Fheidhmeach). The grammar book in UCD for that course was easily the best grammar book I have ever read. It was designed by the staff in UCD's School of Irish. It really utilised all the latest teaching techniques. Everybody I have loaned it to has said the same. It was never published; just printed and binded by UCD for UCD DsaGF students.

Anyway, my spoken Irish was abysmal when I began the course but by the end of it Seosamh Watson and the late Ciarán Ó Con Cheanainn interviewed me for c. 20 minutes in the Irish. Yes, I made mistakes but I felt so proud to have held my own with the two of them for so long. They were really kind and encouraging to me through it, and that matters.

I really think the way Irish is taught on UCD's Dioplóma Sa Ghaeilge Fheidhmeach should be replicated in every single post primary and primary school where Irish is taught.

As for dlofnep's point that 'I think it's debatable when you think of how many people can't hold a conversation 6 months after finishing their oral', I'd have to disagree. I went into UCD yesterday to talk about going back and doing the BA this September and I managed to hold a 15 minute conversation in Irish. It was, once again, liberating. It's a new experience, but 'liberating' is precisely the word. I think it comes back to you fairly quickly once you have been in an environment where Irish was spoken intensively. But I agree that something needs to be in place to keep the conversation going after the Oral. I'm thinking of joining Na Cnocadoirí (http://www.cnocadoiri.com/) now just to go hillwalking (which I love) with a group who speak Irish. I've decided I'm going to do the Irish from September so this is it. It's sink or swim now. I'm off to Ard na Caithne as well in the next month to immerse myself beforehand.

It's amazing how useful the CLT has been to me in not only teaching English to others but in learning Irish for my own benefit. I was totally oblivious to the way to teach language, and therefore to learn it, until I did it.

PS: Without digressing from this very good thread, does anybody know what happened Ciarán; he died at 27 years of age earlier this year having won the Corn Uí Riada last year (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/obituaries/2009/0228/1224241983518.html)

dlofnep · 14-07-2009 3:56pm

Dionysus wrote: »

As for dlofnep's point that 'I think it's debatable when you think of how many people can't hold a conversation 6 months after finishing their oral', I'd have to disagree.

In the context where people study for the oral, and learn a specific set of answers for questions - I think they do forget quite alot within a 6 month timeframe.

Essentially, when you rely on extra marks for the oral as a means to improve the Irish curriculum - what you are doing is leaving the work to the end of the year, instead of progressively focusing on conversational Irish throughout the school curriculum.

What I mean is - There is no point in giving extra marks for the oral, if the curriculum does not reflect it. Unless something radical is changed within the curriculum, you can give extra marks for the oral all you want - but the end result will be the same because the educational methods remain the same.

That diploma looks very interesting by the way. I might have a peek after I finish college next year..

pog it · 14-07-2009 6:00pm

I agree with that. I did Bord na Gaeilge classes while I was doing my postgrad in UCD and they used material from that. It was very very good for conversation and learning grammar as you go along. Excellent for day to day use. I still have a lot of the notes and got great stuff from them.
It would be very effective for secondary school.

[Quote: Dionysis: PS: Without digressing from this very good thread, does anybody know what happened Ciarán; he died at 27 years of age earlier this year having won the Corn Uí Riada last year (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/obituaries/2009/0228/1224241983518.html)[/quote]

Ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam. I'm so so sad to hear that he passed. He was such a beautiful and talented singer. God that's awful news.

conchubhar1 · 14-07-2009 6:12pm

Dionysus wrote: »

PS: Without digressing from this very good thread, does anybody know what happened Ciarán; he died at 27 years of age earlier this year having won the Corn Uí Riada last year (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/obituaries/2009/0228/1224241983518.html)

all that was said was he died suddenly. he was an amazing singer, and an amazing lecturer and just an all round nice person and so open and cool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Hi9CbYNCV8

ucd irish dept is quite good i must say - they are very helpful
they give out their own grammar book aswel in first year (ba)

there is no way we can revert all primary schools to irish - that should have been done when irish was still compulsary for most posistions then it would have been possible but still hard work

now it is impossible and never going to happen - i would love to see it - hell it might get me the ever elusive job!;)

dlofnep · 14-07-2009 6:42pm

I think we are kidding ourselves if we think all primary schools will be operated as Gaelscoilenna. Firstly, I don't think the provisions are there, and one could question if public support was there for total language immersion. Secondly, with my Irish being better than "some" primary school teachers - I think it brings to question on whether primary school teachers would be qualified to offer true immersion classes.

I think from a realistic standpoint, we should be aiming for at least one class taught through the Irish medium. While most teachers would be capable for this, perhaps a designated Irish teacher might be allocated to each school to assist with the process. After a year or two - those teachers who were initally not comfortable with the classes operated entirely through Irish, would obviously become more fluent and comfortable as time progress, so it would be an initial transition period that we would have to get past.

Not only will the immersion environment assist the pupils, but also the teachers. Everyone gains from it.

Also - perhaps an integration program between English medium schools and Gaelscoilenna - where the pupils from the English medium school could spend a day in a Gaelscoil so they can get a feel of what language immersion environments are really like. This would also help the teacher see how teachers in Gaelscoilenna operate each class.

conchubhar1 · 14-07-2009 7:44pm

i think we should aim for 2 gaelscoileanna in each town first - primary and secondary

then with the 55% of lc and junior cert based on actual using the language within 20 years or so dlofneps above proposal would be possible and would do wonders

me_right_one · 14-07-2009 8:43pm

conchubhar1 wrote: »

it was more than 150 years ago when we were all speaking irish

Not outside the pail it wasnt. The famine was the death knell of it though.

me_right_one · 14-07-2009 8:45pm

conchubhar1 wrote: »

i think we should aim for 2 gaelscoileanna in each town first - primary and secondary

then with the 55% of lc and junior cert based on actual using the language within 20 years or so dlofneps above proposal would be possible and would do wonders

Now you're thinking along the right lines! Its all possible!

Dionysus · 14-07-2009 10:55pm

me_right_one wrote: »

Not outside the pail it wasnt. The famine was the death knell of it though.

Interestingly, even in so-called 'Pale' counties like Meath there was a very conspicuous cultural and linguistic difference right up to An Gorta Mór. In north Meath, where the land is more mountainous, Irish was still very widely spoken in 1845 but the 'spailpíní' and poor generally of course suffered much more and with it the language.

Also, when John O'Donovan did his travel around Meath for the Ordnance Survey in 1836 there was sufficient Irish spoken across the entire county for him to record the spoken Irish in each place at the time for his placenames. (http://openlibrary.org/b/OL3997030M/Ordnance-Survey-letters-Meath)

North Meath is still quite different from southeast Meath, with cockfighting, céilithe, smuggling and subversion stronger near Meath's border with Cavan and Monaghan.

conchubhar1 · 14-07-2009 11:57pm

me_right_one wrote: »

Not outside the pail it wasnt. The famine was the death knell of it though.

ok - the famine worsened the situation but it wasnt all irish speaking before that

----
an all irish speaking population is not possible - face facts

but with baby steps and gradual gains - we could get everyone comfortable (80%) with irish
everyone one able to hold a conversation in irish with no bother

but to revert to using it daily for anymore than 10% of the pop is impossible, sorry addidas.

----
last speaker of leinster irish in omeath died in the 1920's i think - so they would have been born in say 1840 maybe later maybe earlier

---
garret fitzgerald did extensive work on the decline of irish

pog it · 15-07-2009 12:03am

The survival of Irish is going to be down to the middle classes when (okay if) it dies out in the Gaeltacht in say 3000AD or whatever!

Does anyone know who is actually in charge of changing the Irish language curriculum? I'm guessing it's long-serving teachers?
Is there enough discussion and interaction between these people, and say the folks in the Dept. Education to manage overall Irish education policy? Seems to me we'll need these two groups working together with the same agenda.

Like with their work on the Caighdeán, I'd be afraid they'll be too laissez-faire about it to do anything with serious long term vision.

FruitLover · 15-07-2009 12:17am

As we all should already have learned, making Irish compulsory for schoolchildren will not lead to mass fluency. I went to all-Irish primary and secondary schools, and I don't know a single person who still speaks Irish fluently. I do, however, know plenty of people who resent having Junior and Leaving Cert Irish exams forced upon them.

me_right_one wrote: »

most adults under 40 have a decent level of Irish

Absolute nonsense. I'd be amazed if even half of Irish people under 40 could hold a conversation in Irish.

me_right_one wrote: »

Irish wold be this generations' mainstream language.

I can only hope that you're typing out a pipe dream here, rather than a genuine expectation of the future of Irish. Because this would be laughable.

me_right_one wrote: »

It'll happen if people want it to.

This is the fundamental problem - not enough people want it to happen. Don't get me wrong, I certainly agree that Irish language education needs to be revised for those who are interested in it, but Irish will never again be a widely-spoken language in this country, it'll always be a niche interest.

dlofnep · 15-07-2009 12:22am

Try to keep things more positive Fruitlover. You can get across your points in a more polite manner.

I do take onboard your points in regards to compulsory Irish not leading to mass fluency, as I myself have made this point in a previous thread. But it only holds true with the current curriculum - and would not be the case with a revised curriculum.

Still - we can debate the issue of optional areas for the leaving cert - such as exams, or subjects being taught through Irish. I'm all for removing the stigma (which isn't entirely widespread) held by some for the Irish language. I think if we all work together, we can come to a compromise that makes everybody happy.

conchubhar1 · 15-07-2009 12:24am

exactly about 10% would be a ballpark figure. certainly not much more and quite possibly a good bit less for daily use

what is possible is havin maybe 80% of the country comfortable with irish - eneough to be actualy bilingual should they use it more than weekly, monthly, yearly or even a few times is another thing all together

Irish language - Revamp in Education.

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