Disappearing history

luckat · 21-01-2004 1:20am #1

Was passing through Tyrrellspass the other day and saw that it was signposted something like Bealach Tiorail. "Wha?" I said - surely the name should be Bealach na Cleitigh, or something like that - wasn't the village named for the plumed hats of one side or the other running like hell during one of Sarsfield's battles?

Similarly, Nás na Rí seems to have become "An Nás", and Brí Chuallainn "An Bré".

Is there some sinister plot, or do they just not know? Or care? Or what?

simu · 21-01-2004 4:55pm

They don't seem to care. I've seen grammer mistakes on signposts in Irish that make it clear the person who wrote them only had the most basic understanding of the language.

Like Sionnaine for the Shannon. Sionainne is the genitive case. It should be An tSionainn or Abhainn na Sionainne.

Also Timpeallán Bóthair Nua instead of Timpeallán an Bhóthair Nua.

I don't know why they don't send a list of all the place names they need to one of the Irish translation agencies. They could give them the proper versions and tell the signmakers to print them out *exactly* as they appear on the page!

Gael · 21-01-2004 7:36pm

I one saw a sign in Dublin with the word "Ceantar" for a "Zone" on it with a síne fada on all the vowels.
"Céántár"

Another good 'un I heard of was "Cé na Coille"(Quay of the Woods/Forest) instead of
"Cé an Adhmaid", for "Wood Quay"

luckat · 22-01-2004 1:59am

Misspellings are annoying - and misapprehensions can be fun, as in Cé na Coille - but what's scary is when the history behind a name drains silently away behind the lost language.

simu · 22-01-2004 12:49pm

Originally posted by luckat
Misspellings are annoying - and misapprehensions can be fun, as in Cé na Coille - but what's scary is when the history behind a name drains silently away behind the lost language.

You should write to the council about it and even to local and national newspapers as well.

For me, history and mythology is what makes a lot of country towns seems other than depressing backwaters and it would be a pity if this was forgotten. Another thing that annoys me is that many developers give English sounding names (Tudor Lawn etc) to estates they build - why not base the name on something more relevant to this country?

dudara · 22-01-2004 5:07pm

There are agencies that collect logainmneacha around the country. Here in Cork, there is one just a few doors down the street from my house. At least an effort is being made to preserve names in the records, but they are passing from general use.

When I was taught placenames in school, it was Caisheal na Rí, Nás na Rí, and so on. I agree with Simu also, it was An tSionainn.

Giving new housing developments mock English names, but I think that developers do have to select an irish-sounding name from now on.

sparkite · 22-01-2004 5:11pm

i like the idea of writing to a newspaper about it.it would be a good story

Gael · 22-01-2004 8:41pm

Galway city has an official of giving Irish only names to new estates that are built. It'd be great to have something like that in Dublin or Cork etc.

luckat · 22-01-2004 8:45pm

Oh, no, Dublin has to have "The Gallops", "xx Manse", and even (without apparent irony!) "Tudor xx".

jerenaugrim · 26-01-2004 9:52pm

Good debate.
A new estate in Thurles adopted the name "Windsor Grove" for itself a few years back. There was war... Thurles itself, of course, used to be Dùrlas Èile uì Fhògartaigh, but is now just Dùrlas...from Stronghold of the O'Fogartys to, er "hold".
Tà sè à chailliùnt againn...

Yoda · 02-02-2004 5:26pm

Going into Howth there are two signs, one on either side of the road. One says "Binn Éadair". The other says "Bínn Eádáír". I keep meaning to photograph them and send them to Lá.

Bard · 02-02-2004 7:04pm

The county Clare town... Lahinch or Lehinch? You decide, clearly... it's regularly signposted as both spellings on the way there...

Guess they haven't decided what sex the town is.

(Oh wait, that's French...)

David-[RLD]- · 21-02-2004 3:20pm

it's all to do with the integration of English into Irish

imo Irish should be kept Irish. words like "zú" make no sense at all. why not create new IRISH words for things instead of just changing the spelling of the English word?

Dún na nGall (Donegal) used to be Tír Chonaill afaik ???

i agree that places should keep their original names

Yoda · 21-02-2004 9:20pm

David,

That kind of argument just isn't on. Languages, all languages, everywhere, borrow from other languages. Irish borrowed scríobh from Latin scrivere centuries ago. The simple English words they and are aren't even English – they were borrowed from the Norsemen. All the non-native borrowings in this e-mail are marked in bold (including your name). The Irish word mála and the English word mail are both borrowings from the Old French male 'pouch'. Don't like the Irish word zú? Why like the English word zoo then? It comes from Greek zoîon 'animal'. It isn't English at all.

Irish lexical borrowings are not what is wrong with Irish. What is wrong with Irish is that people aren't proud enough to insist on speaking it.

Capt'n Midnight · 21-02-2004 9:41pm

ZOO - used to be Sú and before that the much more descriptive "garden of the animals"

Yoda - a lot of words came from latin when the monks introduced a lot of new technology.

Wern't most of the place names writted down during a six week tour of the country by the ordinace survey (with all the incorrect spelllings of such a rushed job)

It's great that you can give an address that post will be delivered to but a stalker would have difficulty being able to find.

Re place names - cringe at all the ones like jobstown and fatima mansions - where the person giving the name didn't nessecialry live there - then again a place makes it's name - like cars really - compare the volkswagen (wasn't called a beetle till it got to the states many years later) and the mistubishi chrisma.

And I've seen streets where the name is spelt differently at each end.

Re Donegal - wasn't that a town vs. county thing - that Dún na nGall was the town and Tír Chonaill was the county ? (a bit like the way that "Black Pool" and Baile atha cliate were on opposite sides of the river.)

[minirant] And those muppets with BAC on their number plates - it's the COUNTY not the town - and it' the first and last letters (usually) so CE or CAE [/minirant ]

Yeah Naas - not like I the dropping of the King

Yoda · 21-02-2004 10:18pm

Sú of course means 'juice'. The Germans say Zoo as well as Tiergarten 'animal garden'. Once upon a time, apparently, Irish speakers had no sound /z/. They do now. Whether from English or not it doesn't matter. In English we have the French sound "zh" as in measure.

Lots and lots of words have been borrowed into Irish. From Latin, Norse, French, and English.

Place names were written down by people who didn't know Irish, it is true. I imagine it took more than six weeks. Personally I think we should do away with as many Anglicized re-spellings of Irish placenames as possible (preferring Dún Laoghaire to Dunleary for instance).

Streets are spelt differently on different ends because people are lazy and stupid. :mad:

The car plate abbreviations for county names are disgusting and idiotic. KildarE? The fecking -e is silent for pity's sake.

Ochón ochón ó.

Emboss · 21-02-2004 10:44pm

won't make alot of difference there's only a handfull of people that will notice it

and i think the 3 that did have posted

jerenaugrim · 22-02-2004 6:31am

A lot of mountain names make no sense in their written English forms, but do in Irish. Like Crohane, which is really Cruachàn, Little Reek. In Scotland, the Ordnance Survey employed native Gadhlig speakers. They just didn't bother their hole here.

Gleanndún · 22-02-2004 7:41am

the one thing that gets me is when people REPLACE irish words with english cognates, i assume in a pathetic attemp to "make the language easier to learn" in order to make learning it more attractive. if they keep that up, all irish will be is the english they speak in ireland now but spelled funny. i can understand introducing new words, that happens all the time; its just when they erradicate the old ones that i think it becomes a problem. e.g. cupán, well thats ok, i suppose the irish didnt have englishy cups before. but then fochupán --> sásar? cé'n fá?

David-[RLD]- · 22-02-2004 1:07pm

Originally posted by Yoda
David,

That kind of argument just isn't on. Languages, all languages, everywhere, borrow from other languages. Irish borrowed scríobh from Latin scrivere centuries ago. The simple English words they and are aren't even English – they were borrowed from the Norsemen. All the non-native borrowings in this e-mail are marked in bold (including your name). The Irish word mála and the English word mail are both borrowings from the Old French male 'pouch'. Don't like the Irish word zú? Why like the English word zoo then? It comes from Greek zoîon 'animal'. It isn't English at all.

Irish lexical borrowings are not what is wrong with Irish. What is wrong with Irish is that people aren't proud enough to insist on speaking it.

i'm sorry for committing the crime that is wanting irish to stay irish

Yoda · 22-02-2004 1:46pm

Cad is brí leis sin, a Dhavid? Mar a dúirt me, tugann gach teanga sa domhain focail ar iasacht ó theangacha eile. "Tá mé ag iarraidh Ghaeilge a choinneáil ina Gaeilge" a dúirt tú, sílim. Cad a chiallaíonn é sin? An gcreideann tú go bhfuil an Ghaeilge "sálach" nó rud éigin de bharr na focail neamh-Cheilteacha atá inti? An raibh a fhios agat gur fhocal ar iasacht a bhí sa bhriathar creideamh? Nó buidéal, fíon, beor, peann, airgead agus go leor leor focal eile?

David-[RLD]- · 22-02-2004 2:56pm

i think i translated most of that...

look i just think that original words and names should be kept and not replaced, and that new words should sound Irish instead of just being the English word spelled differently. that's all.

(yes i know i'm terrible at Irish):(

sceptre · 01-03-2004 4:42am

Apparently Irish town names in Irish are currently being "standardised"

The only "standardisation" I'm familiar with with regard to town names is the US one of around 1910, which included dropping the h from all names ending in -burgh. Pittsburgh told them to sod off and is still the only significant American town or city that retained its h.

I'm not greatly familiar with many Irish place names in either English or Irish (though obviously I'm familiar with the significance of Kill (or Cill), Rath and so on). I've noticed two recent changes that rather annoy me though. Charleville (which has been named "Rath Luirc" as its official name (not just in Irish) since the twenties) is suddenly called "An Rath" (not even An Ráth by the way) on town signs and my girlfriend's home place, Bweeng (don't ask, it's in Cork and if you don't live there or haven't gone out with someone from there, you've never heard if it) is gradually being transformed into "Na Boinn" on signposts as opposed to the "Buinn na Míol" that the place has always been. I'm not too sure about Charleville but I'm certain that there wan't a meeting of the local people, sheep and pigs in Bweeng to discuss whether they wanted their village renamed by people who think they know better.

The Ordnance Survey has historically had its own rules for naming towns on maps - for example they insist on referring to that large island in Kerry as "Valencia" although I've never met anyone from anywhere near there who spelled it as anything other than "Valentia". I don't tend to notice town names at all unless I'm using them for directions but I'd like to see some justification from somewhere about the renaming of towns in what appears to be a willy-nilly decision that ignores the historical name of the places.

The above loks like a rant so I suppose I should say that it doesn't bother me a great deal as my current address (being the fourth-largest borough[1] in the country) is unlikely to fall foul of the secret scheme but it niggles me a little.

[1]That's Limerick by the way. Galway borough now officially contains more people. Limerick has an extra 40 thousand just outside the city boundaries but Galway is now Ireland's third city.

Disappearing history

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