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Caoilinn / Caoilfhionn pronunciation question

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  • 12-08-2008 12:38am
    #1
    narommy
    Registered Users Posts: 469 ✭✭


    Hi

    I'm having a debate on pronunciation of above name(s)

    Agreed that it is pronounced Kwee-linn (although Kway-linn is tempting) are we right?

    Next question is under what rule in the Irish language does the "fh" get dropped?

    Thanks


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    #2
    Múinteoir
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭Múinteoir


    narommy wrote: »
    Hi

    I'm having a debate on pronunciation of above name(s)

    Agreed that it is pronounced Kwee-linn (although Kway-linn is tempting) are we right?

    Next question is under what rule in the Irish language does the "fh" get dropped?

    Thanks

    The first pronunciation you've provided is correct; the second one is not. Whether you want the fh in the name is a matter of personal preference, but modern spelling in Irish tends to leave out silent lenited consonants in such cases. But there is no strict rule about it, just custom. People, for instance, also use either the spelling Clíodhna or Clíona, though they are both pronounced the same.

    Though an Sloinnteoir Gaeilge agus an tAinmneoir     spells it as Caoileann and not as Caoilinn. If you're going as far as planning to call a newborn child this name, buy some good books on the subject. There are lots of them available relatively cheaply.


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    #3
    Suaimhneach
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 4,436 Mod ✭✭✭✭Suaimhneach


    I would read and say it as "Kwee-linn" Defintley worth getting books as an Múinteoir recommends, some of the names have amazing meanings.


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    #4
    pcorridon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1 ✭pcorridon


    In the phonetic spelling, the w is pronounced, correct? I ask because every time I have seen an english spelling for Caoilfhionn it's been Keelin, not Kweelin.
    thanks,


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    #5
    Múinteoir
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭Múinteoir


    pcorridon wrote: »
    In the phonetic spelling, the w is pronounced, correct? I ask because every time I have seen an english spelling for Caoilfhionn it's been Keelin, not Kweelin.
    thanks,

    Well, strictly, the sound is a combination of u-ee and not w, even if it sounds like w when pronounced in sequence. But putting my pedantry aside, yes, that sound you're referring to should be there in the Irish version. Don't depend on the English language versions as phonetic authorities, is all I would say.


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    #6
    An gal gréine
    Registered Users Posts: 941 ✭✭✭An gal gréine


    pcorridon wrote: »
    In the phonetic spelling, the w is pronounced, correct? I ask because every time I have seen an english spelling for Caoilfhionn it's been Keelin, not Kweelin.
    thanks,

    In Ulster and Connacht, when combined comprises the vast majority of native Irish speakers in the country, there is no "w" sound in names such as Caoilfhionn, Caoimhe, Caoimhín etc. It is used throughout Munster though. This being the case, neither pronunciation ( with or without the w) is wrong. My suggestion would be to use whichever comes easier to yourself.


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    #7
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,576 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    I would not be happy with "Kweelinn" as in "Fine Gael" "Fine Gwaol"

    I do not approve of the "w" sound, would be in favour of a more throaty emphasis on the first bit as in CHhhaoilinn.

    You need to get the throat into it in my opinion,like the German "technik"


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    #8
    An gal gréine
    Registered Users Posts: 941 ✭✭✭An gal gréine


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    I would not be happy with "Kweelinn" as in "Fine Gael" "Fine Gwaol"

    I do not approve of the "w" sound, would be in favour of a more throaty emphasis on the first bit as in CHhhaoilinn.

    You need to get the throat into it in my opinion,like the German "technik"[/quote

    This 'w' sound you dont approve of is the natural way they speak in the South of the country.
    The throaty bit you mention is also found there as in "Teeshocck". In Ulster its almost mute after that 'o' above.
    "Chhhaoilinn" does'nt stand on its own so you have to choose between the "w" or not. Where you can use it is in the nominative case " A Chaoilinn".


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    #9
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,576 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Don't agree with that.

    Would suggest that the "w" is the Dubs effort as they are too posh to "hhhawk.

    In my opinion a proper "Gaeilgóir" not pronounced Gwaelgoir by the way but

    "GHhaoilgóir" wouldn't touch that "w" effort with a forty foot barge pole.


    Leaves that for Doobs and Pale merchants.


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    #10
    An gal gréine
    Registered Users Posts: 941 ✭✭✭An gal gréine


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    Don't agree with that.

    Would suggest that the "w" is the Dubs effort as they are too posh to "hhhawk.

    In my opinion a proper "Gaeilgóir" not pronounced Gwaelgoir by the way but

    "GHhaoilgóir"

    I notice that the Southerners who use the "w" in Caoimhe, Caoimhín, Caoilinn etc. dont use it in words beginning with G, as in Gael, Gaeilgeoir, Gaeilge etc.
    "Gaeilgeoir" as a word on its own does'nt have a "h" in spelling or pronounciation in any dialect.


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    #11
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    gaeilgoir = gwayil-goir - - not saying its definitive as there are many pronunications of lots of words
    but its like people saying ''dia dhuit'' - but writing ''dia duit''

    also i have no idea how you pronounce this name, and in the last year ive read a fair bit and seen a lot of mentions for caoilfhionn nic pháidín


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    #12
    cpma282
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11 ✭cpma282


    spelled -eann rather than the other ways, and I pronounce it "Keelin" in English. the Irish way sounds nicer (using a back of the throat u-ee sound for the first syllable), but is mangled by the vast majority of people as "kweelin" so - no. "Keelin" it is.


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    #13
    staryplough
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15 ✭staryplough


    i thought caoileann was female
    and caoilfhionn was male
    am i wrong?


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    #14
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    caoilfhionn nic phadín is an author - it could be one of those names that is female and male tho


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    #15
    cpma282
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11 ✭cpma282


    i've heard of it being used as a boy's name using Anglicised spellings e.g.: Keelan, but traditionally i think it was only as a girl's name, and there's no male/female distinction in the spelling (as there is for e.g.: Francis/Frances).


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    #16
    mr chips
    Registered Users Posts: 608 ✭✭✭mr chips


    Disclaimer - the dialect I'm most used to is the Ulster dialect, but I grew up in the south and so have been accustomed to hearing a variety of pronunciations.

    I'm not sure that the "C" would be softened in the same way that the "Ch-" of "Chuaigh mé", "Cheannaigh mé", etc would be pronounced. It's a hard C.

    Must admit I also find the insertion of a "w" sounds incorrect to my ears, although I accept that many people use it. It's hard to describe how I'd pronounce it myself when I can't just say it to you ...
    Imagine you're a ventriloquist and you have to say the word "weal" without moving your lips!! You make a sort of dip in the middle of your tongue and move it slightly forwards and up at the same time. It ends up nearly closer to how the letter Y is pronounced than W. Then just add the "K" sound before it ...

    Ah sure if nothing else you can have a good laugh at me and my internet messageboard phonetics! :D


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    #17
    Mr. Presentable
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,496 ✭✭✭Mr. Presentable


    narommy wrote: »
    Hi

    I'm having a debate on pronunciation of above name(s)

    Agreed that it is pronounced Kwee-linn (although Kway-linn is tempting) are we right?

    Next question is under what rule in the Irish language does the "fh" get dropped?

    Thanks

    They're both pronounced Keelin


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    #18
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    Don't agree with that.

    Would suggest that the "w" is the Dubs effort as they are too posh to "hhhawk.

    In my opinion a proper "Gaeilgóir" not pronounced Gwaelgoir by the way but

    "GHhaoilgóir" wouldn't touch that "w" effort with a forty foot barge pole.


    Leaves that for Doobs and Pale merchants.

    ROFL - Ridiculous. Native speakers in all the Gaeltachtaí in the south and south-west say "Kw" and "Gw". It has nothing to do with Dublin. You're talking shíte basically. I know two girls called Caoimhe - One from Belfast, and the other from Galway. The girl from Galway always says Kwee-va, while the girl was Belfast says Kee-va.

    It's a dialectual issue. There is no "correct" pronounciation out of the two. Anyone who thinks so clearly doesn't know the first thing about the Irish language.


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    #19
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    As for that "w" sound... if you're confused, just look up velarisation.

    Also, debates on pronunciation that don't use IPA are virtually useless.


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    #20
    deirdremf
    Registered Users Posts: 1,880 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    Aard wrote: »
    As for that "w" sound... if you're confused, just look up velarisation.

    Also, debates on pronunciation that don't use IPA are virtually useless.
    The IPA is grand, but not great (in its basic form) for Irish.
    For Irish pronunciation, put words/phrases into the text box in the link, and it will play the text as speech for you.

    http://www.abair.tcd.ie/index.php

    Then you have to click on "déan sintéis", or "synthesise" in the English version.
    Then an mp3 icon appears, and you have to click on that to get the speech.


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    #21
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    What do you mean the IPA is not great for Irish? And what basic form? All you need are two "extra" symbols for palatisation and velarisation. It's not like there's clicks or implosives or coarticulations in Irish.


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    #22
    ducalion
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭ducalion


    (Mind if I chip in with my two cents?)

    For a start, "Caoilinn" (also, "Caiolfhinn") is hardly a boy's name. For those guys named Caoilinn, if any, please accept my apologies in advance, for letting this particular cat out of its bag.

    A good indication of how tradition can, given long enough, go ever more askew, "traditionally", Caoilinn is said to mean "Thin and fair." Any who have read Thomas Cahill's "How the Irish Saved Civilization" (it being merely one handy and broad indicator) will have been given some fair idea of just how it is (though not how much) the Greek language has influenced Irish language and culture. A great deal, actually. Many Irish words have their root in Greek. On that basis I would say it's a fair bet—that "Caoilinn" is quite possibly a contraction of the Greek words:

    kalli + êliokomas +lineos + inarios + ina. ("There! Beautiful strands of hair, like flaxen sun.")

    Were I a girl named Caoilinn, I think I'd be chuffed.


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    #23
    AnLonDubh
    Registered Users Posts: 216 ✭✭AnLonDubh


    ducalion wrote: »
    A great deal, actually. Many Irish words have their root in Greek. On that basis I would say it's a fair bet—that "Caoilinn" is quite possibly a contraction of the Greek words:

    kalli + êliokomas +lineos + inarios + ina. ("There! Beautiful strands of hair, like flaxen sun.")

    Were I a girl named Caoilinn, I think I'd be chuffed.
    What? None of the root words in Caoilinn originate from greek.

    Caol was present in Primitive Irish and Proto-Celtic as Koilos.


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    #24
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    ducalion wrote: »
    [...]I would say it's a fair bet—that "Caoilinn" is quite possibly a contraction of the Greek words:

    kalli + êliokomas +lineos + inarios + ina. ("There! Beautiful strands of hair, like flaxen sun.")

    This has to be a joke right.


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    #25
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,858 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    That is officially the weirdest first post I've ever seen from a new poster. And I've seen some weird ones in the last 8 years.

    Also, this thread is ancient. I'm going to lock it now.


This discussion has been closed.
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