Zamano

cormie · 23-03-2009 4:49pm #1

So on I think it was, March 7th, I got a text out of nowhere about some Podge and Rodge subscription and it told me text STOP to unsubscribe (unsubscribe to what I thought?). Apparantly I signed up to some service and it was done from my phone, the only way possible I think it could have been that my browser was activated while in my pocket and it did it from the homepage somehow, an unfortunate coincidence of random key presses in my pocket perhaps?

Anyway, it turned out I was charged 2.50 the next day after I got another text because I didn't text stop. I was afraid to text stop incase that itself would sign me up to something, these services are generally very sneaky. I rang o2 and they unsubscribed me but I wanted to find out where this company got my details from anyway and to get my money back. They said it'd be investigated and all that and I'd be sent a call log. I never got the log which was sent out on March 9th and that was the last I heard. I rang back today and they said it was investigated and they said the refund was declined as it happened from my phone and I didn't text stop! This was seen as them getting my permission:eek:

The lady the first day said it was done through a company called eirborne, I forgot the name of them today when I rang back but I asked who it was done through and the lady on the phone said she didn't have access to that info, I said the last lady in the same department was able to tell me, so why couldn't she. Then I remembered it was eirborne. I googled and saw eirborne was bought by Zamano!

It's only 2.50 yeah, but it's a matter of principal, I feel I've been robbed of 2.50 and I don't like the idea of it.

Any suggestions as to how I can go about getting what I believe is my money back?

jordainius · 23-03-2009 5:10pm

To be honest, I think you should be glad that it was just 2.50euro and leave it be! I've heard horror stories of people being sprung for much worse than that!

I know its no use to you now but you should always reply STOP. Then they have to stop, if they continue after that then I think they're breakin some laws and you would be entitled to reclaim anything they charge you.

But if you don't reply stop, technically speaking they have done nothing wrong.

Rsaeire · 23-03-2009 5:20pm

cormie wrote: »

So on I think it was, March 7th, I got a text out of nowhere about some Podge and Rodge subscription and it told me text STOP to unsubscribe (unsubscribe to what I thought?). Apparantly I signed up to some service and it was done from my phone, the only way possible I think it could have been that my browser was activated while in my pocket and it did it from the homepage somehow, an unfortunate coincidence of random key presses in my pocket perhaps?

Anyway, it turned out I was charged 2.50 the next day after I got another text because I didn't text stop. I was afraid to text stop incase that itself would sign me up to something, these services are generally very sneaky. I rang o2 and they unsubscribed me but I wanted to find out where this company got my details from anyway and to get my money back. They said it'd be investigated and all that and I'd be sent a call log. I never got the log which was sent out on March 9th and that was the last I heard. I rang back today and they said it was investigated and they said the refund was declined as it happened from my phone and I didn't text stop! This was seen as them getting my permission:eek:

The lady the first day said it was done through a company called eirborne, I forgot the name of them today when I rang back but I asked who it was done through and the lady on the phone said she didn't have access to that info, I said the last lady in the same department was able to tell me, so why couldn't she. Then I remembered it was eirborne. I googled and saw eirborne was bought by Zamano!

It's only 2.50 yeah, but it's a matter of principal, I feel I've been robbed of 2.50 and I don't like the idea of it.

Any suggestions as to how I can go about getting what I believe is my money back?

Some people, like yourself, are signed up to these services due to a family member/friend/ colleague using their phone to download a ringtone/game/wallpaper etc and don’t realise that a subscription starts from the moment they access the provider’s website, send an sms or call the provider’s number.

O2 should be able to advise you of the exact time, date and method of subscription, e.g. 16:15 23-03-09 via SMS, took place. This information can be sought from the content provider on your behalf by O2. I wouldn't drop this issue, as you mentioned, it is the principle.

cormie · 23-03-2009 5:35pm

I'd be pretty certain the only way it could have happened is that my browser went off in my pocket, which does happen quite frequently if it's not locked properly, as there's a button that loads it up straight away and brings me to an o2 homepage, which I'm guessing is where there was a link about podge and rodge and it must have just been pressed by mistake while in my pocket. Whether this is seen as permission or not is unknown, but it's surely deceitful if it is!

Random · 23-03-2009 7:36pm

This one might be better off in Consumer Issues so I've moved it for you.

-Freebird- · 23-03-2009 10:18pm

Call the regulator - RegTel: 1850741741 www.regtel.ie

But if you didn't text stop then you won't get a refund, it's crappy but that's their legislation.

cormie · 23-03-2009 10:55pm

Who's legislation is that? Can I drive up to their offices and load my van with some office chairs, plants and anything else I fancy and tell them that by sending a text to my number they gave me permission to do this and if they want the items back, they'll have to text STOP to my number?

foggy_lad · 24-03-2009 1:20am

-Freebird- wrote: »

Call the regulator - RegTel: 1850741741 www.regtel.ie

But if you didn't text stop then you won't get a refund, it's crappy but that's their legislation.

if the message they sent was unsolicited they are breaking the law by subscribing people to their services without their knowledge or permission and the stop text is generally for when you have knowingly signed up to one of these services and want to stop recieving messages and being charged but also works when you get charged without subscribing.

robo · 06-04-2009 10:06pm

There were a good few people on Liveline today discussing this. One guy was offered money to repay the money taken from his credit, but he continued to say no as the amount being offered was not near the amount they had taken from him. He used the assistance of Regtel to get his money back. Regtell know all bout this company and loads of people have got caught with these texts cos they didn't text back STOP, but like yourself, they didn't sign up to anything to say No to!
You should be able to hear todays podcast of Liveline

pleba · 07-04-2009 7:55am

continue to push this with O2. Ask them for a log of the date and time you subscribed to this service.

If it was via an SMS they will have that information (but not the content of the SMS), and if it was done online they will also have this information. So make sure you push it with them.

Also, if nothing is forthcoming from them (give them a couple of days) then make sure you push this with Regtel and Zamano / Eirbourne. I find that writing to the CEO / MD of the companies involved always ensures a swift response.

Might seem like a lot of effort for €2.50 but this is happening far too often to too many people.

Slunk · 07-04-2009 8:10am

That exact same thing happened to me. I must have subscribed to some jokes while the phone was in my pocket. Poxy SE K800 has a button that brings you straight onto the web. A few times i have taken out my phone and seen the o2 site open. Must have been really unlucky to have clicked enough times in the wrong place to subscibe. Took about 12.50 off me before i realised. Checked my account on the o2 site and said Humour -€2.50 or something. I didnt find it that funny, and i never even got my jokes :mad:

I have since changed my homepage in the settings to a non exsistant site so it cannot connect to the site therefore not charging me money.

Guy:Incognito · 07-04-2009 10:51am

cormie wrote: »

Who's legislation is that? Can I drive up to their offices and load my van with some office chairs, plants and anything else I fancy and tell them that by sending a text to my number they gave me permission to do this and if they want the items back, they'll have to text STOP to my number?

Maybe if you could take the items by text you could try that. otherwise its stealing.

The texting of STOP is common practice and has been adveretised for quite a while now.

cormie · 07-04-2009 11:05am

I don't see how them coming to my phone and taking my money is any different to me pulling up in a van and loading in a few nice plants?

:pac:

Bob Z · 07-04-2009 11:26am

Stekelly wrote: »

Maybe if you could take the items by text you could try that. otherwise its stealing.

The texting of STOP is common practice and has been adveretised for quite a while now.

Hes has a point you text get signed up to these things out of the blue then its your fault for not cancelling

cormie · 07-04-2009 12:21pm

Slunk wrote: »

That exact same thing happened to me. I must have subscribed to some jokes while the phone was in my pocket. Poxy SE K800 has a button that brings you straight onto the web. A few times i have taken out my phone and seen the o2 site open. Must have been really unlucky to have clicked enough times in the wrong place to subscibe. Took about 12.50 off me before i realised. Checked my account on the o2 site and said Humour -€2.50 or something. I didnt find it that funny, and i never even got my jokes :mad:

I have since changed my homepage in the settings to a non exsistant site so it cannot connect to the site therefore not charging me money.

Yup, same phone here, SE K800, that button is a pain in the ass and I think that's what caused me to go online, and then just an unfortunate and coincidental combination of key presses while in my pocket, somehow got me subscribed to it :mad: I googled and I now have that button pointing to a picture that doesn't exist in my phone, so when I click it, nothing happens, it doesn't even attempt to go online I don't think

I Googled it and found it, forget what I googled for though or how to do it :P

jor el · 07-04-2009 12:31pm

cormie wrote: »

I don't see how them coming to my phone and taking my money is any different to me pulling up in a van and loading in a few nice plants? :pac:

If the sign up came from your phone, then they haven't stolen anything, and it's your responsibility to stop it by following the instructions they gave you.

If you can prove that you didn't sign up (either deliberately or accidentally, or through ignorance when you signed up to some other service and this may have been bundled in) then you have a case.

If the sign up did happen from your phone though, then it's your responsibility to either not let that happen in future, or to stop it when it does.

Lab_Mouse · 07-04-2009 12:32pm

RTFM..key lock on the phone anyone?just might work I think.

The majority of joke/ringtone/video services are not one off services,you do have to text stop once you subscribe to them..feel sorry for parents kids who sign up for the craaazy frog ringtones or such and wonder where there kids credit goes...

Hobbes · 07-04-2009 1:01pm

I know people are talking about keylocks and what not but Zamano are famous for pulling crap like this (opt-out billing subscription). It is illegal but at least in the UK Zamano the fines they pay (100-150K) are a tiny fraction of the profits they make from the action (millions).

Just google Zamano or "Zamano fined".

When you do reply to the msg only type in STOP ALL. You should also report them but as mentioned it will have little to no effect on that companies profits.

[edit] Actually their profits are way down. Appears the recession is hurting them as well.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/breaking-news/ireland/business/pretax-profits-halved-at-zamano-13984915.html

cormie · 07-04-2009 1:08pm

I've automatic keyguard on, it still happens.

Jor El, I'm saying that if they can view an un authorised combination of key presses as enough reason to take 2.50 off me because I sent them something from my phone, can I not view the the text they sent me as authorisation to go and take a few plants from their reception/waiting room? :pac:

I really don't see the difference..

jor el · 07-04-2009 2:04pm

cormie wrote: »

Jor El, I'm saying that if they can view an un authorised combination of key presses as enough reason to take 2.50 off me because I sent them something from my phone, can I not view the the text they sent me as authorisation to go and take a few plants from their reception/waiting room? :pac:

No, it's not the same thing at all. How do they know whether you signed up by accident or not? You still signed up, regardless, and are responsible for opting out. They viewed your signing up to a service as authorisation by you to pay for that service, how else would they view it?

If the phone's keypad was locked, then this should not have happened, which is why I asked if you are sure you know how you got signed up. You're accepting that it must have been accidental, where as it may have been included with something else, or it may have been completely unauthorised.

Rakeline · 10-04-2009 4:26pm

This happens to my younger brother everytime he tops up he gets 2 or 3 msgs from them each costing 2 euro hes texted stop but it did nothing hes with meteor any ideas on how to stop it? It was a thing he signed up to on setanta and had a different name i cant think of it at the moment when i searched it i ended up at the zamano page and a bit of searching looks like there in court for this all the time.

foggy_lad · 10-04-2009 10:18pm

Rakeline wrote: »

This happens to my younger brother everytime he tops up he gets 2 or 3 msgs from them each costing 2 euro hes texted stop but it did nothing hes with meteor any ideas on how to stop it? It was a thing he signed up to on setanta and had a different name i cant think of it at the moment when i searched it i ended up at the zamano page and a bit of searching looks like there in court for this all the time.

go to the RegTel website and they have a number checker, put the 5digit number you are geting the texts from in and it brings up the name and contact details of the company involved. also i would suggest an email to RegTel telling them your brother texted stop but the messages keep coming!

DrumSteve · 11-04-2009 12:24pm

od you have the 5 digit code for the premium rate sms? the operator wont refund you the charges but zamano themselves will be able to tell you themselves exactly when you signed up & what you sent to them. Head to www.regtel.ie input the 5 digit number and it will give you all their details to conatct them. i would say to do this asap.

foggy_lad · 11-04-2009 1:13pm

DrumSteve wrote: »

od you have the 5 digit code for the premium rate sms? the operator wont refund you the charges but zamano themselves will be able to tell you themselves exactly when you signed up & what you sent to them. Head to www.regtel.ie input the 5 digit number and it will give you all their details to conatct them. i would say to do this asap.

once you text stop all texts and charges are supposed to STOP. so your brother is entitled to all charges from the 1st time he texted stop to the number.

Sam Vimes · 11-04-2009 1:54pm

Unless of course he has no proof that he sent it. You should always keep these messages

bigpinkelephant · 11-04-2009 3:23pm

I had the same problem with one of these companies. Never signed up to anything, but every time I'd top up by 10 euro, 8 would be taken, and I'd text STOP but nothing would happen. O2 told me who the company was, so I rang them. At first, they told me they had unsubscribed me, but I still kept getting texts. I rang again and demanded to speak to a supervisor but he "wasn't there". I told them I'd take legal action if they continued to steal 80% of my call credit. I didn't get any more texts after that

the_syco · 11-04-2009 4:47pm

Rakeline wrote: »

This happens to my younger brother

Is he under 18? As I'm pretty sure it's illegal for a minor to enter into a contract, and thus it's illegal for them to take his money.

Rakeline · 12-04-2009 6:31pm

Cheers for all the answers will give it a try. The funny thing about these is there is no 5 digit code he got another msg today that just said win great sports trips and that was it its from

http://mobxs.tv/w?code=354618167154

Will try that regtel thing thanks all!

jor el · 14-04-2009 1:01pm

bigpinkelephant wrote: »

I didn't get any more texts after that

Did you get your money back though?

Sam Vimes · 14-04-2009 1:22pm

Rakeline wrote: »

Cheers for all the answers will give it a try. The funny thing about these is there is no 5 digit code he got another msg today that just said win great sports trips and that was it its from

http://mobxs.tv/w?code=354618167154

Will try that regtel thing thanks all!

That's definitely zamano. In the source code of that page is this:

<p style="text-align:center">

<img class="coolmenu" src="http://159.134.94.202/wapImages//NonAdultImages/174/3777.gif" alt="" />
</p>

and the IP address 159.134.94.202 is zamano.com

ferdi · 16-04-2009 12:06pm

Sam Vimes wrote: »

the IP address 159.134.94.202 is zamano.com

Yep
I just had to sort this out for somebody (who had not subscribed to this service) who was recieving "service messages" at €2 a pop with no short code only the above weblink (http://mobxs.tv/w?code=354618167154), i called zamano on +353 (0) 1 488 5820 and was put through to customer service and apparently that mobile is now unsubscribed so if any more of these "service messages" arrive i'll be back on to them double quick!!

conner · 20-04-2009 4:21pm

why is it when a phone is in somebody's pocket that it nearly always 'accidentally' signs up to a subscription service offered by Zamano?

why is it that thousands of phones in thousands of pockets in the UK are 'accidentally' dialing Zamano's 'number'?

http://www.phonepayplus.org.uk/output/Search-adjudications.aspx

Last year the UK Regulator Phonepayplus finally admitted that the major cause behind this problem were unscrupulous companies obtaining 'third party' marketing lists of phone numbers from Marketing/Data collecting companies.

Also remember that the mobile phone companies take a sizable percentage of the revenue before passing the rest on to Zamano.

there is something in your pocket but it's not your phone.

Hydrosylator · 22-04-2009 10:46am

My auld lad got scammed by Zamano, with a load of unsolicited text messages, including service messages. There was a charge of 2.50 per text, and when he texted stop he kept getting them. But the service texts can't be stopped lie normal texts, it seems.

Now how did Zamano get his number to send these unsolicited texts?

Well, here's a list of some companies Zamano deals with . Straight from the horse's mouth.

He voted on one of RTE's shows, the All Ireland Talent Show they had there a short while back, just once. He got no other texts from RTE.

MY best guess at the moment is this:
1. Companies pay Zamano to provide them a text voting service.
2. Zamano process all those text votes for their customers.
3. Zamano harvest all the numbers for their own use.
4. Zamano start spamming people, and hope enough people get confused that they turn a profit. (We all know how spam works, you just need to fool a few of the people, some of the time, when a computer does the leg work. )
5. Mobile Service providers don't kick up a fuss, because the scam nets them a tasty commision.
6. Regtel don't do a whole lot about it, because they're part of the industry, they get paid a levy from these services. Why would it bite off the hand that feeds it?

7. Bill payers get screwed, everyone else gets paid.

Currently awaiting a call from Zamano, they have 5-7 working days to get back. (Although we did ring Zamano already, they might as well have put a dog on the phone instead of the idiot whipping boy they seem to give these calls to. I think they get him from this company <== it's only a youtube video.

Hydrosylator · 22-04-2009 5:06pm

Quick update on the above post.
We got called back by Zamano, who are of the opinion that he subscribed to their service.
His phone bill would suggest otherwise, he never texted their service.

We contacted 02, his mobile provider, to see what they would do. Nothing.

It seems that 02 have two ways of looking at unsolicited subscription scams.

It's all your fault
It's not their fault

It's their policy that if you receive unsolicited premium messages, you get billed and you pay for them, and they do nothing to help. I got the woman on the phone to admit as much. This isn't a license to print money for the likes of Zamano so much as it is a license to rob people blind.

We just want a refund.

I'm not joking, they won't do a thing to help, won't dream of refunding money. Nothing.
As the texts go through their network, one can only assume they're getting a piece of this highly lucrative, completely indefensible action.

The people on the phone don't care about whether you threaten to leave 02 or not, so what do you do? I can tell you what we're going to do. We're going to go to an 02 shop and make nuisances of ourselves. Here's why this is a good idea (if like us, you're mad enough, or you've been severely ripped off through no fault of your own).

From a mate of mine who worked in an o2 store:
"what you do is go into an o2 shop and act stupid there, and if they cant help in the store say your leaving and go through the leaving process there with them, they'll sort it then, o2 hates losing customers. The shop will be held responsible, goes against their monthly shop stats, which affects sales commissions, bonuses etc."

If it works, they credit your account the amount. He also added that the more crowded the store is at the time, the better it will work, and the more "local" the store is, the better it will work. Outlets in big shopping centres typically won't give a damn. We're going to give it a lash, I'll let you know how it goes.

Sam Vimes · 22-04-2009 8:37pm

Hydrosylator wrote: »

We're going to go to an 02 shop and make nuisances of ourselves. Here's why this is a good idea (if like us, you're mad enough, or you've been severely ripped off through no fault of your own).

From a mate of mine who worked in an o2 store:
"what you do is go into an o2 shop and act stupid there, and if they cant help in the store say your leaving and go through the leaving process there with them, they'll sort it then, o2 hates losing customers. The shop will be held responsible, goes against their monthly shop stats, which affects sales commissions, bonuses etc."

If it works, they credit your account the amount. He also added that the more crowded the store is at the time, the better it will work, and the more "local" the store is, the better it will work. Outlets in big shopping centres typically won't give a damn. We're going to give it a lash, I'll let you know how it goes.

When I worked in a phone shop I had a very strong desire to murder people who did that. I was told to follow certain policies and no amount of screaming or crying or threatening etc suddenly gave me the power to do what the customer was asking. If I was able to do it, I would have done it. I would much rather be selling stuff than trying to deny somebody something that it was within my power to give

hatrickpatrick · 23-04-2009 12:10am

I was involved in a prime time investigation into tne unsolicited text messages scams.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0210/primetime.html

The third link there, "Phone Problems", is the report we did. I got subscribed to an Opera ringtone service because I "apparently" consented to it on one of their WAP sites (which I never, ever use). I ignored the texts at first because I assumed they were actually trying to trick me into subscribing, and then went on a little crusade to try and get my money back.

They didn't show the entire phone call in that clip, but the woman who is talking to me got incredibly aggro after a few minutes, it was hilarious... I'd say they would have been a bit more polite had they known they were being bugged

A side note is the ethics of the company themselves. Their helpline is a paid phone number which they presumably make money from, and their offices close at something like half 4, not 5 as I would have assumed. The first day we were filming, I rang at 4:40, and was on hold for more than an hour before we gave up. The next day the informed me that they close at half 4 and therefore my call would never have been answered. Yet they had me on hold with a sickeningly patronizing voice chiming in every few minutes with "Your call is very important to us, please wait for the next available operator"

Crooks.

cormie · 23-04-2009 8:09am

When I first made this thread, I was worried the title may have been mod-edited to be less "slanderous", but it appears they truly are thieves and deceiptful :mad:

I still think that I could somehow make the fact that they sent a text to my phone, permission for me to go and fleece their office, as me sending something to their number, gives them permission to fleece my wallet apparently! What ye folk think?

Hydrosylator · 23-04-2009 9:33pm

Sam Vimes wrote: »

When I worked in a phone shop I had a very strong desire to murder people who did that.

Well murder or not, it was indeed a waste of our time. We weren't aggro at all, we merely put all our cards on the table. What did piss me off was that yer man was talking about a "recent loophole", which made this scam possible, when it's been going on for at least four years, as far as I can tell.

Loophole my eye, the only loophole is that the phone companies are willing to let this happen because it makes them money to do so.

As for father, he's taking the last remaining option (outside of a court case without any Irish law to support it, as it would seem), and voting with his feet, changing network. I'd be doing the same (I'm also on o2) but I have to wait for my contract to run out.

This issue, it seems, is not going away. I feel a "cause" website coming on.
No really.

Gillo · 24-04-2009 10:26am

Hydrosylator wrote: »

From a mate of mine who worked in an o2 store:
"what you do is go into an o2 shop and act stupid there, and if they cant help in the store say your leaving and go through the leaving process there with them, they'll sort it then, o2 hates losing customers. The shop will be held responsible, goes against their monthly shop stats, which affects sales commissions, bonuses etc."

If it works, they credit your account the amount. He also added that the more crowded the store is at the time, the better it will work, and the more "local" the store is, the better it will work. Outlets in big shopping centres typically won't give a damn. We're going to give it a lash, I'll let you know how it goes.

Maybe, I'm missing something but the could your friend have not just sorted it out for you??

There's very little the stores can do, nearly every day I have people coming in to me with premium texts, to be honest all I can do is get on to the companies sending the texts and get the customer unsubscribed.

As far as I am aware once Zamono, Opera or anyone else has a licence to operate then the networks can't block their services. If someone can prove me wrong and direct me to the relevant legislation I'd be more than obliged.

Edit: just for the record, I work for O2 but amy only expressing my own opinions. I'm also no on here as any sort of ambassador for O2.

Hydrosylator · 24-04-2009 4:42pm

Gillo wrote: »

Maybe, I'm missing something but the could your friend have not just sorted it out for you??

There's very little the stores can do, nearly every day I have people coming in to me with premium texts, to be honest all I can do is get on to the companies sending the texts and get the customer unsubscribed.

As far as I am aware once Zamono, Opera or anyone else has a licence to operate then the networks can't block their services. If someone can prove me wrong and direct me to the relevant legislation I'd be more than obliged.

Edit: just for the record, I work for O2 but any only expressing my own opinions. I'm also no on here as any sort of ambassador for O2.

It's been a few years since he worked there. That said, from what I can surmise, even if he still worked there he'd be as useless in this situation as any other shop staffer, o2 policy being what it is. Even if it did make a difference, it would still be wrong for everyone else to be screwed like this.

I think this might be one of those cases where the problem isn't legislation, it's a lack of it. These services appear to be a law unto themselves, no matter what Regtel would have us believe.

They have carte blanche to take money from our phones. No matter what protestations of innocence the phone service providers make, I have yet to see a public campaign against this phenomenon being run by these same providers. Either it's not in their interest to do so, or it's in their interest to neglect to do so.

conner · 25-04-2009 2:58pm

Gillo wrote:

As far as I am aware once Zamono, Opera or anyone else has a licence to operate then the networks can't block their services. If someone can prove me wrong and direct me to the relevant legislation I'd be more than obliged.

Hydrosylator wrote:

I think this might be one of those cases where the problem isn't legislation, it's a lack of it. These services appear to be a law unto themselves, no matter what Regtel would have us believe.

As I understand it there are basically two sets of laws/regulations that cover this.

Communications:

The Network is considered to be a 'wire'. Companies and individuals can use that wire to communicate with any other company or individual.
If the Network is persistently used to cause harm then the offending party can be barred from using the Network.
In the UK the only body who can bar an individual or company from using the Network is Ofcom. Ofcom acts on behalf of the UK Government (Secretary of State). I assume it would be Comreg in Ireland.

In the case of communications, O2 and the other Networks do not have the authority to bar companies or individuals from using the Network in the same way as the postal service cannot refuse to deliver mail.

If a company does use the Network (postal service) to persistently cause harm the Network Operators can use the 'mere conduit' defense to avoid legal responsibility for anything illegal.

To use the 'mere conduit' defense the Network Operator should not be responsible for: sending the message NOR the content NOR who receives the message.

Commercial:

Reverse charge sms are not simple communications. They are billed services. The Network Operators have signed agreements with companies like Zamano to bill their customers for the receipt of these services

It's clear that the Network Operators are being allowed to use the 'mere conduit' defense for something it was not intended for. It was never intended to avoid responsibility for the unauthorised billing of accounts.

Opera Telecom barred in Australia:

A network does not have the legal authority to bar a company or individual from using the 'wire' to send communications (under the Communications Act) but they can refuse to do commercial 'business' with a company if that company breaks the terms of the commercial contract.

http://www.australianit.news.com.au/story/0,24897,25329470-15306,00.html

April 14, 2009

A Telstra spokesperson said: "Telstra has chosen to exercise its contractual right to terminate its contract with premium SMS service provider Oxygen 8 on 60 days written notice.
"This action was taken after Oxygen 8's services continued to generate a consistently disproportionate and unacceptable level of complaints over a sustained period. This was despite Telstra's attempts to work with Oxygen 8 to improve its complaint levels over many months."

Oxygen8 is the name Opera Telecom uses in Australia.

Hydrosylator · 29-04-2009 1:05pm

Well, a cheque from Zamano arrived today, refunding the full amount added to my aul lads phone bill.

There was however, no admission of liability. The letter went like this

REFUND FOR PREMIUM RATE SMS SERVICES

As per your recent query to our customer services department, please find enclosed a cheque for the amount stipulated above, to refund you for the costs incurred while using one of the Premium Rate SMS services provisioned on our platform.

Kindest Regards,
(illegible signature without typed equivalent)
Zamano Customer Services Manager

Our interaction with Zamano involved:

initally ringing them up and eating the bo**ocks off them over the phone
getting onto Regtel
getting a phone call from Zamano, who still insisted he subscribed (bull****)
complaining (a lot) to 02, on the phone and in a shop, and then leaving o2
getting a letter and cheque from Zamano

It's impossible to say for sure which of those actions had the greatest impact.
We shouldn't have had to any of this.

The problem of unsolicited premium sms services still exists, even if it no longer affects us personally, and the law still needs to change to protect the victims and not the perpetrators. But then, that seems to be a problem with a lot of Irish law these days.

legend73 · 29-04-2009 1:44pm

Simply put people are muppets and do not read the T&Cs and small print on their texts, oblivious to the fact they have actually used a subscription service. FOLKS read the T&Cs and don't get caught out.

All the Premium SMS services are operated on regulations from REGTEL, if a service is opted in to then there is no come back in a lot of cases. Companines cannot send unsolicited premium SMS messages it is against the law.

If you're not sure dont use the services, such as ringtones, wallpapers, games, applications, balk texting, chat, tarot.... etc

conner · 29-04-2009 4:28pm

legend73 wrote:

Simply put people are muppets...............Companines cannot send unsolicited premium SMS messages it is against the law.

no.........just one or two :rolleyes:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/money/consumer_affairs/article5002795.ece
October 23, 2008
Beware of the mobile text pests
There has been an alarming growth in the number of people ripped off by premium-rate phone services

Even more worrying, however, is the growing trend among premium-rate companies to target people who have not given them their details. Most usually a company acquires contact details by buying lists of data from other companies. “Buying and selling of contact details is big business,” Mr Bates says. “Lists of phone numbers are passed around the industry. If your number is on one of these lists, you could receive a text about anything.”

so according to Simon Bates (Phonepayplus), people in the UK are complaining because they are being sent unsolicited premium rate text messages.

422358%7EThe-Muppets-Full-Cast.jpg

according to legend73, people who are complaining in Ireland are complaining because they are muppets.

Paddyo · 29-04-2009 4:56pm

I think you may have missed the point legend73.

People ARE being signed up for these services without ever actually signing up for them - even if it is against the law

So I ask you now - who is the muppet in this situation?

This happened my son a while back with funmobile - and I got his money back.

Paddyo

foggy_lad · 29-04-2009 10:02pm

Paddyo wrote: »

I think you may have missed the point legend73.

People ARE being signed up for these services without ever actually signing up for them - even if it is against the law

So I ask you now - who is the muppet in this situation?

This happened my son a while back with funmobile - and I got his money back.

Paddyo

the people operating these premium rate services are fully aware of the situation and will do nothing about it as it benefits them and they make a small fortune from their "mistakes" deliberate or otherwise

Hydrosylator · 29-04-2009 10:46pm

legend73 wrote: »

Companines cannot send unsolicited premium SMS messages it is against the law.

Oh yeah, I forgot that legislation works by making it physically impossible to break the law.

I suggest you read the rest of this thread to see what's actually happening. I know it would take longer than assuming everybody's retarded except you, but do it anyway.

To recap, people are getting unsolicited texts to their phones.
Be glad you're not one of them, and don't be a dick every day of your life.

legend73 · 30-04-2009 11:52am

Tutu - I dont get unsolicted txts because i've never subscribed to a service or contest or given out my number to anyone for use in advertising etc as i'm not a numpty.

The reason people get these txts are simple - they sign up for services or give out their numbers unwittingly. In the case of Paddyo your son signed up for something at some point. The fact he is a minor is probably why you got the money back.

As for the last post Hydroslater - I have read through the topic. All I can say is that it seems that 'dicks' dont read through the T&Cs or don't understand what they are doing.

I agree it is a generalisation that all people in these situations are muppets. However ignorance has never been an excuse and people should be responsible and accountable for thier own actions.

From what I understand the industry has been cleaned up somewhat in the past 6-9 months and in the US & UK markets there are now double opt in systems. Simply meaning you actually have to agree twice to the services, if that is introduced in Ireland by the regulators then this topic will be mute unless your name is Elmo, Kermit or Gonzo.

cormie · 30-04-2009 12:39pm

legend73 wrote: »

Tutu - I dont get unsolicted txts because i've never subscribed to a service or contest or given out my number to anyone for use in advertising etc as i'm not a numpty.

The reason people get these txts are simple - they sign up for services or give out their numbers unwittingly. In the case of Paddyo your son signed up for something at some point. The fact he is a minor is probably why you got the money back.

As for the last post Hydroslater - I have read through the topic. All I can say is that it seems that 'dicks' dont read through the T&Cs or don't understand what they are doing.

I agree it is a generalisation that all people in these situations are muppets. However ignorance has never been an excuse and people should be responsible and accountable for thier own actions.

From what I understand the industry has been cleaned up somewhat in the past 6-9 months and in the US & UK markets there are now double opt in systems. Simply meaning you actually have to agree twice to the services, if that is introduced in Ireland by the regulators then this topic will be mute unless your name is Elmo, Kermit or Gonzo.

In the case of my original post and the topic starting post, I was charged because of a few random button presses while my phone was in my pocket (and yes I have auto-keylock enabled, so even more coincidental). I have never sent any texts to competitions or anything of that nature, ever, ring ring ringtone is fine for me, I use my phone for calls, texts and connecting to the net on my laptop, an odd photo here and there and that's it. The only 5XXXX number I get numbers from is the o2 blueroom, notifications of upcoming shows to the point. I highly doubt this is in any way related to what I was charged for, which according to the folks on the phone, I signed up for unknowingly about 3 minutes before I took my phone out of my pocket and saw that it had connected itself to my browser while in my pocket.

legend73 · 30-04-2009 1:14pm

Yep and like so many posts on this forum and I didnt want to re-itirate those when they say you opted in, why is that the compaines fault. Some how you managed to opt in, they didnt send you an unsolicited txt as I was discussing. The dobule Opt in would probably stop that as you need to kind of do it twice in a row or it asks did you do this and you have to respond with a Yes to get the services. I'm not 100% on how it works as again I have never subscribed to anything.

I get your point and it sounds like you've sorted out your issue, so hope you've had no more issues since and that your not pocket phoning.

My niece got into a similiar situation, she swore black and blue that she did nothing, but in the end she had entered a competition via a website. Being a minor meant she got a refund as soon as she contacted the service provider.

I'm off the opinion that there are generally more then one side to a story.

Paddyo · 30-04-2009 1:33pm

Legend

You obviously dont really know what your are talking about. If you look at the regulations, people are not supposed to be charged unless they opt in by using the password/number which is given to them by the 'service' provider.

In my opinion, they should be able to provide proof of this opt in.

In my sons case, he is under age and that is probably why he got his money back. That is not to say that he signed up for it in the first place. I saw the original text sent by them which he did click on - but nowhere in the text did it say that by clicking here you are subscribing to their service.

What if someone else gave your number on a website - would you be the muppet then?

As you yourself said, there is always more than one side to a story and no matter what anyone says, in my opinion, what these companies are doing is plain and simple robbery.

Paddyo

Zamano

Comments