No Tokens for Washing Machine - Landlord not replying

sheroman01 · 12-12-2018 5:30pm #1

In order to use the washing machine and dryer in my flat, we need to buy tokens from the landlord. It's quite annoying but anyway, nothing can be done. I texted the landlord 10 days if I could get some off her, and again on Monday. No reply either times. I don't mind waiting a few days but at what point does it become unacceptable? Is there anything I can do here? I've had to pay twice now to wash my stuff at a local dry cleaners, €22 in total compared to the €4 with the tokens I should have.

endacl · 12-12-2018 5:32pm

Are you posting from the 1980s?!?

El Weirdo · 12-12-2018 5:46pm

Is the washing machine and dryer actually in your flat or is it in a communal room?

If it's actually in your flat, that seems to be a ridiculous system.

sheroman01 · 12-12-2018 5:52pm

Haha! My thoughts exactly too when I first saw this setup. I've stayed in a few flats around the Rathmines area in the last few years and it seems to be very common around here! It's in a communal room.

listermint · 12-12-2018 5:57pm

3D print some new ones

s7ryf3925pivug · 12-12-2018 6:07pm

I lived in a bedsit in Rathmines with that setup. My entire bedsit was six foot wide. I had a little portable stove and no oven, and my wardrobe was in the communal hall outside. The mind boggles, looking back at it. It wasn't even the worst place I lived - though it was the smallest.

beertons · 12-12-2018 6:09pm

Just wear the clothes you want cleaned in the shower. Dry them in front of the fire.

....... · 12-12-2018 6:10pm

Do minimum standards from PRTB not state that access to laundry is a minimum?

L1011 · 12-12-2018 6:15pm

....... wrote: »

Do minimum standards from PRTB not state that access to laundry is a minimum?

Yes* and while shared token op machines would meet it, no access to tokens means no access to laundry machines.

*Washer and outdoor drying, or washer and dryer

OP - phone the landlord, not text. Harder to ignore.

Del2005 · 12-12-2018 6:18pm

sheroman01 wrote: »

In order to use the washing machine and dryer in my flat, we need to buy tokens from the landlord. It's quite annoying but anyway, nothing can be done. I texted the landlord 10 days if I could get some off her, and again on Monday. No reply either times. I don't mind waiting a few days but at what point does it become unacceptable? Is there anything I can do here? I've had to pay twice now to wash my stuff at a local dry cleaners, €22 in total compared to the €4 with the tokens I should have.

Not ideal but there is a lot of shopping centres and petrol stations with washing and drying machines. Going to cheaper than dry cleaning.

....... · 12-12-2018 6:23pm

If the washing machine is in a communal room can you buy tokens of other tenants?

Personally Id be phoning and texting the LL hourly at this stage.

endacl · 12-12-2018 9:01pm

If it’s communal, next time you get tokens search online for them and buy a load for less than your LL is charging you.

s7ryf3925pivug · 12-12-2018 9:45pm

endacl wrote: »

If it’s communal, next time you get tokens search online for them and buy a load for less than your LL is charging you.

This would be theft. It would also be obvious that it was the person who never buys tokens.

sheroman01 · 12-12-2018 11:23pm

listermint wrote: »

3D print some new ones

haha, would love to try this, but you can't reuse them

sheroman01 · 12-12-2018 11:26pm

L1011 wrote: »

Yes* and while shared token op machines would meet it, no access to tokens means no access to laundry machines.

*Washer and outdoor drying, or washer and dryer

OP - phone the landlord, not text. Harder to ignore.

Yep, you're correct. And yeah, I think I'll do this. I'll just ring her tomorrow. Have a feeling I'll be waiting a while.

the_syco · 13-12-2018 2:24am

sheroman01 wrote: »

I've had to pay twice now to wash my stuff at a local dry cleaners, €22 in total compared to the €4 with the tokens I should have.

Look for "revolution laundry dublin locations" in Google Maps. 18KG is €8 to wash, €2 to dry.

Graces7 · 13-12-2018 10:41am

beertons wrote: »

Just wear the clothes you want cleaned in the shower. Dry them in front of the fire.

or wash by hand? I do not have a working washing machine or access to any and I manage fine. As long as you have a washbasin or sink? Until you get your tokens...

endacl · 13-12-2018 12:15pm

Phoebe Cold Fog wrote: »

This would be theft. It would also be obvious that it was the person who never buys tokens.

Wouldn’t have up use them for every wash.

....... · 13-12-2018 12:32pm

Phoebe Cold Fog wrote: »

This would be theft. It would also be obvious that it was the person who never buys tokens.

Theft? Are you serious?

The LL is illegally charging for use of washing facilities. He has no idea who is choosing to have their clothes washed elsewhere so wouldnt have a clue if someone was using their own tokens.

Fundamentally I object to the LLs behaviour here and if I were the tenant I would be looking at alternatives.

Pelvis · 13-12-2018 12:43pm

Phoebe Cold Fog wrote: »

This would be theft. It would also be obvious that it was the person who never buys tokens.

Who can just say they decided to frequent the local laundrette for the sake of convenience.

I have a similar set up, communal washer/dryer that accept's coins. But due to the fact there's one washer and dryer shared between 9 flats, which from what I can tell all contain couples, you are often left waiting to be able to use them. Well I got sick of that fairly quickly. There's a laundrette right next to my luas stop so now I just drop off in the morning and pick up on my way home. More expensive but infinitely better for my mental health!!

Del2005 · 13-12-2018 2:04pm

....... wrote: »

Theft? Are you serious?

The LL is illegally charging for use of washing facilities. He has no idea who is choosing to have their clothes washed elsewhere so wouldnt have a clue if someone was using their own tokens.

Fundamentally I object to the LLs behaviour here and if I were the tenant I would be looking at alternatives.

Where does it say that a landlord can't charge? The requirement is for access to washing and drying facilities, not access to free washing and drying facilities.

With the government squeezing more and more from landlords with less protection and interfering with their ability to make a profit you will be seeking a lot more of this.

JimmyMW · 13-12-2018 2:05pm

or you could just buy one of these
https://pricespy.ie/home-garden/white-goods/laundry-care/washing-machines/oneconcept-ecowashdeluxe7-white--p4579442

....... · 13-12-2018 2:45pm

Del2005 wrote: »

Where does it say that a landlord can't charge? The requirement is for access to washing and drying facilities, not access to free washing and drying facilities.

With the government squeezing more and more from landlords with less protection and interfering with their ability to make a profit you will be seeking a lot more of this.

Where does it say that a landlord CAN charge?

The spirit of the legislation is that the LL provides access to basic facilities needed as part of the rental. Not that he squeezes every last penny that he can by charging on top of the rent for "extras". I would think if the OP took a case to PRTB for this you would find that the LL was told to remove the coin access to such a basic facility pronto. This isnt Sky Sports - its laundry facilities. Every single person needs to be able to wash and dry their clothes.

And it is this type of behaviour that tarnishes decent landlords who are not trying to fleece their tenants every which way.

Lux23 · 13-12-2018 3:19pm

Our landlord only charges for the dryer.

XVII · 13-12-2018 3:35pm

our landlord charges for both washing machine and dryer. Where does it state it's illegal?

....... · 13-12-2018 3:55pm

XVII wrote: »

our landlord charges for both washing machine and dryer. Where does it state it's illegal?

Doesnt need to be explicitly stated. Its obvious.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/repairs_maintenance_and_minimum_physical_standards.html

Regulation 7, 2, b
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2017/si/17/made/en/print

Says nothing about charging for them. Given they are in the same section of the legislation as providing access to oven/freezer/microwave/sink etc it is reasonable to assume that the intention is that they are NOT to be charged for per use.

These are minimum standards.

Landlords need to provide access to a toilet - nowhere in the legislation does it say anything about charging per use of a toilet because its bloody obvious eh?

Same as laundry facilities.

Pelvis · 13-12-2018 4:07pm

Sorry but I think it does need to be explicitly stated.

I do have access to laundry facilities, having to pop in a €2 coin first doesn't change that.

If this was illegal then this practice wouldn't be so widespread.

....... · 13-12-2018 4:14pm

Pelvis wrote: »

Sorry but I think it does need to be explicitly stated.

I do have access to laundry facilities, having to pop in a €2 coin first doesn't change that.

If this was illegal then this practice wouldn't be so widespread.

So then you think that it is ok for a LL to charge on a per use basis for the microwave, the 4 ring hob, the sink, the fridge/freezer etc?

Because they are all listed in exactly the same manner in the legislation.

Being widespread has no bearing on its legality btw. Plenty of things are widespread that are illegal.

LLs are getting away with this because (a) people dont know their rights and (b) people are afraid to complain because they will be turfed out at the earliest opportunity and we are in a housing crisis.

And who can be bothered to complain to PRTB about 2 euro a week?

THATS why its happening, because nefarious LLs are taking advantage.

IMO its quite obvious what the spirit of the legislation is when read in context. Id be interested to see what the RTB have to say about it.

Graham · 13-12-2018 4:21pm

Heating is also part of the minimum standards, there's no suggestion that it's included in the rent.

Pelvis · 13-12-2018 4:23pm

....... wrote: »

So then you think that it is ok for a LL to charge on a per use basis for the microwave, the 4 ring hob, the sink, the fridge/freezer etc?

Because they are all listed in exactly the same manner in the legislation.

Being widespread has no bearing on its legality btw. Plenty of things are widespread that are illegal.

LLs are getting away with this because (a) people dont know their rights and (b) people are afraid to complain because they will be turfed out at the earliest opportunity and we are in a housing crisis.

And who can be bothered to complain to PRTB about 2 euro a week?

THATS why its happening, because nefarious LLs are taking advantage.

IMO its quite obvious what the spirit of the legislation is when read in context. Id be interested to see what the RTB have to say about it.

I'm not saying what's right or wrong. I think if landlords could get away with charging for those things then they probably would, but it would be so unusual to do so that they wouldn't get any tenants. Which is why it's unheard of.

However, it's not uncommon for laundry facilities to be communal, and it's common to pay per usage. That legislation only says I must have access to laundry facilities, I do.

Fol20 · 13-12-2018 4:28pm

....... wrote: »

Doesnt need to be explicitly stated. Its obvious.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/repairs_maintenance_and_minimum_physical_standards.html

Regulation 7, 2, b
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2017/si/17/made/en/print

Says nothing about charging for them. Given they are in the same section of the legislation as providing access to oven/freezer/microwave/sink etc it is reasonable to assume that the intention is that they are NOT to be charged for per use.

These are minimum standards.

Landlords need to provide access to a toilet - nowhere in the legislation does it say anything about charging per use of a toilet because its bloody obvious eh?

Same as laundry facilities.

Legal is never based on obvious or assumptions. Unless its explicitly says the ll cant charge for said facility. Its fair game. In this case the tenant doesnt have access to the facility for a long time so this is partly breaking the rules however usually they do.

13-12-2018 4:33pm

....... wrote: »

I would think if the OP took a case to PRTB for this you would find that the LL was told to remove the coin access to such a basic facility pronto.

And who will pay for the electricity in that case? The LL is charging for use of electricity and there is no way on earth the PRTB would find any issue with the system overall, while it might not be as common in Ireland a coin operated communal washing room is very common abroad (in many counties people here love to say how great renting is compared to Ireland) so saying its to do with people not knowing rights or being afraid is nonsense. The issue is that lack of supplied tokens but this system was operated correctly there would be no issue.

If the op had a washing machine/dryer in is house he would be paying the electricity cost to use it so its not that he is being charge rent and charged to wash his clothes in a way he wouldn't be paying otherwise.

How else can a communal washing facility be operated without people taking the absolute p1ss and racking up huge bills for overuse of the dryer in particular.

....... · 13-12-2018 4:48pm

Melissa Mushy Judo wrote: »

How else can a communal washing facility be operated without people taking the absolute p1ss and racking up huge bills for overuse of the dryer in particular.

By providing free tokens and tracking usage. Each flat uses a different coloured token. Its quite clear who is "taking the piss".

I mean, its so simple Im surprised I need to type it.

And legislation is often unclear otherwise no one would ever be making an argument in court as to the meaning of it.

13-12-2018 5:03pm

....... wrote: »

By providing free tokens and tracking usage. Each flat uses a different coloured token. Its quite clear who is "taking the piss".

I mean, its so simple Im surprised I need to type it.

And legislation is often unclear otherwise no one would ever be making an argument in court as to the meaning of it.

Why on earth would a LL pay for tenants to wash their clothes? A LL has to provide facilities, if they are in the apartment then the tenant pays in their esb bill, if they are communal then the tenant has to pay for the electricity use by other means.

I mean, its so simple I'm surprised I need to type it :rolleyes:

Providing facilities does not mean subsiding the tenants which a LL would be in your rather bizarre suggestion.

....... · 13-12-2018 5:16pm

Melissa Mushy Judo wrote: »

Why on earth would a LL pay for tenants to wash their clothes? A LL has to provide facilities, if they are in the apartment then the tenant pays in their esb bill, if they are communal then the tenant has to pay for the electricity use by other means.

I mean, its so simple I'm surprised I need to type it :rolleyes:

Providing facilities does not mean subsiding the tenants which a LL would be in your rather bizarre suggestion.

Should be factored into the rent.

How is the LL accounting for the electricity that each tenant in a shared property is using individually at all? There isnt a separate line into each room.

Perhaps someone else is "taking the piss" by cooking sunday roasts all the time?

I mean, you can see how nonsensical this becomes right?

If you charge for laundry then you can charge for cooking, and everything else in the legislation that isnt explicitly accounted for.

Doop · 13-12-2018 5:22pm

....... wrote: »

Should be factored into the rent.

How is the LL accounting for the electricity that each tenant in a shared property is using individually at all? There isnt a separate line into each room.

Perhaps someone else is "taking the piss" by cooking sunday roasts all the time?

I mean, you can see how nonsensical this becomes right?

If you charge for laundry then you can charge for cooking, and everything else in the legislation that isnt explicitly accounted for.

Pretty sure all tenants pay their own ESB charges

Even in Pre-63 properties each apartment/unit has their own esb meter. Have you ever rented in Ireland?

Del2005 · 13-12-2018 5:28pm

....... wrote: »

If you charge for laundry then you can charge for cooking, and everything else in the legislation that isnt explicitly accounted for.

With more restrictions coming I can see landlords changing for these. We've got used to paying for a lot of things that where "free" before business found that they could charge for it.

EdgeCase · 13-12-2018 5:30pm

I had to use shared laundry facilities in Belgium a few years ago and it was infuriating.

One couple would put laundry into the machine in the morning, never remove it and then if you put it into a clothes basket (provided in laundry room) they would come knocking on doors going crazy about their clothes being removed from the machine.

Sometimes they would be in there for 12+ hours.

In the end people started moving out.

....... · 13-12-2018 6:03pm

Doop wrote: »

Pretty sure all tenants pay their own ESB charges

Even in Pre-63 properties each apartment/unit has their own esb meter. Have you ever rented in Ireland?

Both tenant and landlord but never in a shared house.

Even if the electricity is metered individually the general point I am making still stands. The LL should factor the communal electricity into the rent.

Laundry should not be treated differently than other items in the same section of the legislation and if you are going to charge per use then its fair game to charge per use for everything else in that section.

Yet I am sure everyone agrees that it would be wrong to charge per use of the microwave or hob.

Pelvis · 13-12-2018 6:04pm

....... wrote: »

Should be factored into the rent.

How is the LL accounting for the electricity that each tenant in a shared property is using individually at all? There isnt a separate line into each room.

Perhaps someone else is "taking the piss" by cooking sunday roasts all the time?

I mean, you can see how nonsensical this becomes right?

If you charge for laundry then you can charge for cooking, and everything else in the legislation that isnt explicitly accounted for.

You're just being ridiculous now tbh.

Pelvis · 13-12-2018 6:05pm

....... wrote: »

Both tenant and landlord but never in a shared house.

Even if the electricity is metered individually the general point I am making still stands. The LL should factor the communal electricity into the rent.

Laundry should not be treated differently than other items in the same section of the legislation and if you are going to charge per use then its fair game to charge per use for everything else in that section.

Yet I am sure everyone agrees that it would be wrong to charge per use of the microwave or hob.

It doesn't matter about right and wrong. The legislation doesn't prohibit these charges! End of.

....... · 13-12-2018 6:07pm

Pelvis wrote: »

You're just being ridiculous now tbh.

Actually I am being perfectly consistent.

The legislation says nothing about conditional access, which is what using tokens is. If a person hasnt the money to buy tokens then they have no access.

It says nothing about charging either way.

However it is reasonable to assume that it is to be treated the same way as other items in the same section of the legislation. If you wish to dispute this then please lay out your argument? Simply claiming I am being ridiculous does not disprove anything I am saying.

....... · 13-12-2018 6:10pm

Pelvis wrote: »

It doesn't matter about right and wrong. The legislation doesn't prohibit these charges! End of.

So to be consistent then you must agree that it is also ok to charge for the microwave/hob/sink etc on a per usage basis?

Yes or no? This is the second time I have asked you.

If not, why not? The legislation doesnt prohibit these charges right? End of.;)

Graham · 13-12-2018 6:15pm

Mod Note

ok ....... unless you can link to an independent source to backup your assertion, let it drop. You've dragged the thread off topic quite enough.

....... · 13-12-2018 6:20pm

Graham wrote: »

Mod Note

ok ....... unless you can link to an independent source to backup your assertion, let it drop. You've dragged the thread off topic quite enough.

I have linked to the legislation.

It is being asserted that because the legislation doesnt specifically prohibit charges then that is ok.

So I am asking if then charges for all items in that part of the legislation is also ok?

Im not clear why I am getting a mod note on this? I have been civil even when others have not?

Mrs OBumble · 13-12-2018 6:33pm

....... wrote: »

So to be consistent then you must agree that it is also ok to charge for the microwave/hob/sink etc on a per usage basis?

That is exactly what the ESB do: they charge per usef, based on how much you use.

All the LL has to do is provide accrss to the stove etc. S/he id not required to provide power for them to use.

13-12-2018 6:50pm

....... wrote: »

I have linked to the legislation.

It is being asserted that because the legislation doesnt specifically prohibit charges then that is ok.

So I am asking if then charges for all items in that part of the legislation is also ok?

Im not clear why I am getting a mod note on this? I have been civil even when others have not?

Essentially you are saying that a tenant who gets their esb cut off for non-payment has a case to make a complaint that they can't wash or cook as the LL should provide these and that the tenant shouldn't have to pay to use them.

....... wrote: »

So to be consistent then you must agree that it is also ok to charge for the microwave/hob/sink etc on a per usage basis?

If they were in a communal area and the tenant was not otherwise paying for them then through their own esb bill then it wouldn't be a big deal once done properly. The system makes sense for laundry though not so much for the other facilities.

Fol20 · 13-12-2018 7:01pm

Many other european countries have it setup this way. They have longer secure tenanies. I thought this is what you want. Personally i wish we just give them a box the tenants then have the choice to put in a unit if they want or they can go to an external laundry unit

s7ryf3925pivug · 13-12-2018 8:42pm

It's the norm for college accommodation to openly charge per wash on a similar system. For example:

http://www.dcuaccommodation.ie/living-on-campus/apartment-living/laundry-facilities

Therefore it can be taken that it's not illegal. Deliberately avoiding payment for a service obviously is illegal on the other hand. Saving a couple of euro a week doesn't strike me as worth risking being kicked out of your apartment or being refused a reference, given the current climate.

dennyk · 13-12-2018 10:05pm

....... wrote: »

...Given they are in the same section of the legislation as providing access to oven/freezer/microwave/sink etc it is reasonable to assume that the intention is that they are NOT to be charged for per use.
...
Landlords need to provide access to a toilet - nowhere in the legislation does it say anything about charging per use of a toilet because its bloody obvious eh?

So what you're saying is that there's a significant untapped market for coin-op ovens, hobs, fridges, microwaves, sink taps, and toilets in private rental accommodation, eh? I think I smell a new business opportunity... :pac:

sheroman01 · 14-12-2018 5:42am

Okay, so there's been a lot of replies, a lot of them off topic. My issue was the fact that I needed to get more tokens from my landlord, and I have not heard back from her in 13 days. As I said, I can understand a few days grace, but nearly two weeks is too long. What can I do in this case? Is there any compensation I can get? Perhaps deduct it from rent? I'm looking for answers to these questions, not alternatives as to how I can wash my clothes. Thanks for the advice though.

In relation to the setup I have; I pay €2 per token, which normally gets me a wash and a dry. Sometimes one token per wash and one per dry. Initially I thought this was crazy but for a while it was fine. I see some pros and cons:

Pros:
Don't have to purchase washing machine/dryer
Price per wash/dry seems alright
Washing Machine+Dryer is in a separate room, giving more room for my studio

Cons:
Limited time to use; another tenant can be using it when I need it
Can't use it if my landlord doesn't give me tokens!!

No Tokens for Washing Machine - Landlord not replying

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