Energy infrastructure

celtic_oz · 01-01-2021 3:21pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

And the technology went to sleep for 50 years. Hmmmmm.

If you want to make nuclear weapons (which they did at the time) , thorium MSR are not good.

The Thorium Molten-Salt Reactor: Why Didn't This Happen (and why is now the right time?) :

China chases thorium

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLX8jCKL9I4

India chases thorium MSR

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2X0klAjT7Q

02-01-2021 11:29pm

celtic_oz wrote: »

so trivial to build a small new plant burning up the old waste at the old plant site, where all the power grid is connected.

The word trivial is rarely associated with anything nuclear

celtic_oz · 03-01-2021 12:41pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The word trivial is rarely associated with anything nuclear

agreed,

Though in terms of placating the torch wielding villagers the advantages of MSR are

1. walk away passively safe, cannot melt down
2. can potentially use old waste
3. compared to LWR, waste is insignificant, a lot is commercially viable for medical instrumentation
4. abundant supply throughout the world
5. much cheaper to build ( 99% of the safety precautions are not necessary )
6. Process heat can be used as backup of renewables

watch from about 8 minutes in : https://youtu.be/0X16g14Aark?t=478

More info on Thorcon : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qtJE7VmyoU

More info on FLibe : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SvFxe-izhA

More info on Moltex : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=En_fwXNGu_I

03-01-2021 1:28pm

celtic_oz wrote: »

agreed,

Though in terms of placating the torch wielding villagers the advantages of MSR are

1. walk away passively safe, cannot melt down
2. can potentially use old waste
3. compared to LWR, waste is insignificant, a lot is commercially viable for medical instrumentation
4. abundant supply throughout the world
5. much cheaper to build ( 99% of the safety precautions are not necessary )
6. Process heat can be used as backup of renewables

watch from about 8 minutes in : https://youtu.be/0X16g14Aark?t=478

More info on Thorcon : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qtJE7VmyoU

More info on FLibe : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SvFxe-izhA

More info on Moltex : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=En_fwXNGu_I

Still never going to be built in Ireland and therefore will not be part of the energy infrastructure of Ireland so I'm not sure I see the point of discussing it in this thread.

Capt'n Midnight · 03-01-2021 2:20pm

Improving on existing nuclear isn't easy or cheap. The Japanese spend 20 billion dollars trying to develop a breeding cycle and failed. Thorium is essentially the same

Insane amounts of money have been thrown at nuclear by the military too, getting better bombs and submarine reactors was pretty high on the agenda all through the cold war.

Materials science has improved but fission physics is still the same.

roadmaster · 07-01-2021 11:33am

Looks like we where near power shortages again during the week

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/energy-and-resources/electricity-shortage-brought-ireland-close-to-power-cuts-1.4451830?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fbusiness%2Fenergy-and-resources%2Felectricity-shortage-brought-ireland-close-to-power-cuts-1.4451830

Sam Russell · 07-01-2021 1:57pm

roadmaster wrote: »

Looks like we where near power shortages again during the week

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/energy-and-resources/electricity-shortage-brought-ireland-close-to-power-cuts-1.4451830?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fbusiness%2Fenergy-and-resources%2Felectricity-shortage-brought-ireland-close-to-power-cuts-1.4451830

That was always a risk when we rely on wind. We live a climate that can have high pressure areas sitting over Ireland that can last for a week or more. In the summer this creates glorious heat wave weather but in winter, it creates very cold weather with no wind.

That is a very real risk when we rely on wind as our only source of renewable power. We need storage, or biomass, or hydro as a least a backup. Plus a connector to Europe.

roadmaster · 07-01-2021 3:45pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

That was always a risk when we rely on wind. We live a climate that can have high pressure areas sitting over Ireland that can last for a week or more. In the summer this creates glorious heat wave weather but in winter, it creates very cold weather with no wind.

That is a very real risk when we rely on wind as our only source of renewable power. We need storage, or biomass, or hydro as a least a backup. Plus a connector to Europe.

Untill any if that happens we need to keep Moneypoint

Sam Russell · 07-01-2021 3:51pm

roadmaster wrote: »

Untill any if that happens we need to keep Moneypoint

Well, in the IT report, it says that two of the three turbines are currently spinning.

We should keep the turf plants serviceable as well. They can burn biomass as well as turf.

antoinolachtnai · 07-01-2021 4:30pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, in the IT report, it says that two of the three turbines are currently spinning.

We should keep the turf plants serviceable as well. They can burn biomass as well as turf.

It is unintuitive but burning coal in Moneypoint does not lead to any extra carbon emissions overall. This is because of how the emissions trading system works.

The same applies for turf but turf plants have their own issues for conservation and economic viability as biomass plants (I believe, I don’t know a lot about it.)

07-01-2021 4:31pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

We should keep the turf plants serviceable as well. They can burn biomass as well as turf.

Already refused permission so won't be happening

07-01-2021 4:35pm

roadmaster wrote: »

Looks like we where near power shortages again during the week

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/energy-and-resources/electricity-shortage-brought-ireland-close-to-power-cuts-1.4451830?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fbusiness%2Fenergy-and-resources%2Felectricity-shortage-brought-ireland-close-to-power-cuts-1.4451830

Very misleading headline

What actually occurred

The Single Electricity Market Operator (SEMO) issued an amber alert to power suppliers, meaning there was expected to be enough energy to meet demand, but possibly not enough in reserve should something go wrong.

Capt'n Midnight · 08-01-2021 12:09am

Sam Russell wrote: »

That is a very real risk when we rely on wind as our only source of renewable power. We need storage, or biomass, or hydro as a least a backup. Plus a connector to Europe.

Gas turines are already in place.

Hydro not a chance here. All the low hanging fruit was taken yonks ago.
Besides our power usage goes up by an Ardnacrusha on average every year.

roadmaster · 08-01-2021 10:47am

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Gas turines are already in place.

Hydro not a chance here. All the low hanging fruit was taken yonks ago.
Besides our power usage goes up by an Ardnacrusha on average every year.

Was there a few years back some lad that wanted to build Hydro projects in connamara ?

loyatemu · 08-01-2021 11:10am

big power outage in North Wicklow / South Dublin last night - lasted for about 2 hours. All the mobile networks also went down. A taste of things to come?

(this led me to looking at the Eirgrid dashboard this morning, and surprisingly despite low levels of wind, we're currently exporting power over the interconnectors.)

antoinolachtnai · 08-01-2021 11:17am

loyatemu wrote: »

big power outage in North Wicklow / South Dublin last night - lasted for about 2 hours. All the mobile networks also went down. A taste of things to come?

This had nothing to do with the Yellow Alert.

(this led me to looking at the Eirgrid dashboard this morning, and surprisingly despite low levels of wind, we're currently exporting power over the interconnectors.)

Did you look at electricity prices on both sides of the Sea? This is theoretically what you would expect to determine the direction of the interconnector.

Before Brexit the interconnectors were automatically aligned based on day-ahead prices. This automatic coupling is now gone as I understand it.

Nermal · 08-01-2021 12:18pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

We need storage, or biomass, or hydro as a least a backup.

The largest pumped storage system on earth would satisfy demand here for about 8 hours.

That's current demand. When we've replaced every ICE with an EV, every gas hob with an induction ring, every boiler with a heat pump... :rolleyes:

Storage will never be a solution to the intermittency problem of renewables.

josip · 08-01-2021 12:34pm

Nermal wrote: »

The largest pumped storage system on earth would satisfy demand here for about 8 hours.

That's current demand. When we've replaced every ICE with an EV, every gas hob with an induction ring, every boiler with a heat pump... :rolleyes:

Storage will never be a solution to the intermittency problem of renewables.

What's the storage capacity of all the EVs ?

For calculation's sake, lets say the average EV's battery of the future is 70kWh (better get my units right), so all (2.13m) cars would have a maximum storage capacity of almost 150 GWh (did I calculate that correctly?).
You won't ever have all that available; not everyone will have a fully charged EV all the time and they won't all be willing to sell it all back to the grid.

In Nov, our daily usage was 90GWh I think.

So in reality, the EVs feeding back to the grid would only keep the lights on for less than a day?

tom1ie · 08-01-2021 4:30pm

Nermal wrote: »

The largest pumped storage system on earth would satisfy demand here for about 8 hours.

That's current demand. When we've replaced every ICE with an EV, every gas hob with an induction ring, every boiler with a heat pump... :rolleyes:

Storage will never be a solution to the intermittency problem of renewables.

Don't agree with this at all.
If you build enough solid hydrogen storage and generate enough wind power, we would be able to store large amounts of electricity in the form of solid state hydrogen vis electrolysis.

However to do that we need to be generating much more clean renewable electricity than the whole grid consumes atm!

tom1ie · 08-01-2021 4:32pm

josip wrote: »

What's the storage capacity of all the EVs ?

For calculation's sake, lets say the average EV's battery of the future is 70kWh (better get my units right), so all (2.13m) cars would have a maximum storage capacity of almost 150 GWh (did I calculate that correctly?).
You won't ever have all that available; not everyone will have a fully charged EV all the time and they won't all be willing to sell it all back to the grid.

In Nov, our daily usage was 90GWh I think.

So in reality, the EVs feeding back to the grid would only keep the lights on for less than a day?

not sure this is the answer as the LV network is limited by the size of the current carrying capacity of the physical wires.
if everyone converted to EV's, electric hobs electric heating, the LV network would melt!
we need to be capturing the excess electricity at transmission level where the capacity is and where you minimise losses.

tom1ie · 08-01-2021 4:37pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

That was always a risk when we rely on wind. We live a climate that can have high pressure areas sitting over Ireland that can last for a week or more. In the summer this creates glorious heat wave weather but in winter, it creates very cold weather with no wind.

That is a very real risk when we rely on wind as our only source of renewable power. We need storage, or biomass, or hydro as a least a backup. Plus a connector to Europe.

Even with high pressure, there is a certain amount of wind out at sea that could be captured by anchored wind farms.
What they would generate I'm not sure but it would be interesting to know.

We defo need interconnectors, but also storage (i know i keep harping on about this solid state hydrogen but it seems to be an answer) and enough storage to get us over the low wind energy periods.

Calahonda52 · 08-01-2021 4:44pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Still never going to be built in Ireland and therefore will not be part of the energy infrastructure of Ireland so I'm not sure I see the point of discussing it in this thread.

Broadens the mind and shows how backward thinking we are as a nation, now governed , at least 1/3 in the current troika, by greenies

08-01-2021 4:56pm

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Broadens the mind and shows how backward thinking we are as a nation, now governed , at least 1/3 in the current troika, by greenies

Paint it whatever suits you, but it does not change the fact that nuclear will never figure into Irelands energy mix (France's supply through the interconnector notwithstanding)

tom1ie · 08-01-2021 6:37pm

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Broadens the mind and shows how backward thinking we are as a nation, now governed , at least 1/3 in the current troika, by greenies

Why would we build nuclear when we have a massive bank of wind energy to harness?
Solve the storage issue and we are as energy rich as the oil rich Middle East only with renewables as opposed to oil and gas.

liamog · 08-01-2021 7:01pm

tom1ie wrote: »

Why would we build nuclear when we have a massive bank of wind energy to harness?
Solve the storage issue and we are as energy rich as the oil rich Middle East only with renewables as opposed to oil and gas.

I'm always surprised we don't invest more in a Galway based sea energy centre of excellence. I suspect we'll crack large scale wave power before we get to true interseason energy storage.

08-01-2021 7:39pm

liamog wrote: »

I'm always surprised we don't invest more in a Galway based sea energy centre of excellence. I suspect we'll crack large scale wave power before we get to true interseason energy storage.

I would love to see ocean power generation cracked and have followed its progress for years. It really does seem like a no brainer but its incredibly difficult to do.

Its really down to what type of generation you use. There are a load of small scale trials ongoing all over the world, but many, like in Carlingford's SeaGen turbine, focus on tidal which is a VERY niche generation method. But there are others, some wacky and some looking very promising. See below

I think with this, as with anything renewable, spreading the method of generation across multiple types & sites will be the way to go.

celtic_oz · 08-01-2021 9:15pm

Taken from https://www.pv-magazine.com/2021/01/08/irish-esb-to-add-100-mwh-of-fluence-storage-to-its-portfolio/

Irish state-owned utility Electricity Supply Board (ESB) has kicked off the year by signing a deal over two storage projects with a combined capacity of nearly 100 MWh. With the agreement, the utility enters the club of Irish utility-scale battery owners for the first time. The company said it would further expand its storage project portfolio in the future.

Taken from : https://www.pv-magazine.com/2020/01/31/innogy-announces-60-mw-storage-project-in-ireland/

The company said that it has made a final decision to invest €25 million in the construction of a 60 MW lithium-ion plant near Lisdrumdoagh, in Ireland's County Monaghan.

Apogee · 27-01-2021 3:24pm

Apogee wrote: »

Originally Posted by Irish Examiner
Work has begun planning an offshore wind project near the Kinsale Gas Fields that could produce up to 1GW of energy through 67 floating wind turbines. Simply Blue Energy (Kinsale) has lodged a foreshore licence application to carry out survey works off the Cork coast as part of its Emerald Project which it says has the potential to replace 16.5% of current fossil fuel-derived electricity in Ireland. The investigative foreshore licence application lodged with the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government seeks consent to conduct surveys to investigate options for bringing cables ashore, for a wind farm that would be located between 35km to 60km from the Cork coast in depths of water of around 85 to 90m.

Shell have bought a 51% stake in this:
https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/arid-40215236.html

Yellow_Fern · 03-02-2021 11:50am

tom1ie wrote: »

Why would we build nuclear when we have a massive bank of wind energy to harness?
Solve the storage issue and we are as energy rich as the oil rich Middle East only with renewables as opposed to oil and gas.

This is untrue.

Zebra3 · 04-02-2021 5:58pm

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/feb/04/denmark-strikes-deal-on-25bn-artificial-wind-energy-island

Very interesting seeing what the Danes are up to.

20 years since I first flew into Copenhagen and I was amazed at all the wind turbines I could see.

Energy infrastructure

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