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Tripe Glazed windows retrofit and air tightness questions

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  • 27-08-2019 1:03pm
    #1
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,163 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭


    Hi Guys,

    We're currently looking at getting some work done on our 3 bed semi. The house was built late 90's and has a BER of C1 (I think) so it's not freezing but can be improved.

    Mainly we're looking at getting rid of drafts and improving insulation so we're getting the walls pumped and the attic insulation upgraded and our air vents replaced withlunos ones with better noise dampening and draught protection, along with extractors in the bathrooms.

    We're also looking at replacing all the windows and the front door ,probably going to go triple glazed.

    The main question i have is around the window replacements, are we going to get any benefit from triple glazed windows if we don't remove the internal reveals and add airtight tape? This doesn't seem to be something the window company are willing to do themselves so it would involve getting another contractor to do it and would make the window retrofit a bigger job, is there any point in even replacing the windows if we don't do this?

    Any advice is greatly appreciated.


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    #2
    Wartburg
    Registered Users Posts: 134 ✭✭Wartburg


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    Hi Guys,

    We're currently looking at getting some work done on our 3 bed semi. The house was built late 90's and has a BER of C1 (I think) so it's not freezing but can be improved.

    Mainly we're looking at getting rid of drafts and improving insulation so we're getting the walls pumped and the attic insulation upgraded and our air vents replaced withlunos ones with better noise dampening and draught protection, along with extractors in the bathrooms.

    We're also looking at replacing all the windows and the front door ,probably going to go triple glazed.

    The main question i have is around the window replacements, are we going to get any benefit from triple glazed windows if we don't remove the internal reveals and add airtight tape? This doesn't seem to be something the window company are willing to do themselves so it would involve getting another contractor to do it and would make the window retrofit a bigger job, is there any point in even replacing the windows if we don't do this?

    Any advice is greatly appreciated.

    I wouldn´t bother that much about the tapes at the sides and the top, because your reveal is probably plastered which creates the required air tightness layer. But it is essential to take of the existing window boards and tape between the window frame and the inner leaf, onces you have the windows installed.
    I also recommend always, to leave a gap of at least 7mm to every side and the top of the window frame, to allow an appropriate filling of this joint for insulation and sound proofing purpose. The gap can be finally covered with uPVC plastic strips in the same colour as the window.
    If you do not take the required attention to the space around the window, it´s probably not worth to upgrade to triple glazing.


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    #3
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users Posts: 19,615 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Wartburg can I just ask regarding the 7mm gap, what is considered a good filling for this? Also any recommendation on the tape between the leaf and window frame? Im getting the same done as the OP soon and was a bit worried about how the new windows connect into the house so want to make sure the installers are using best practice or at least have some knowledge on what they should be doing.


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    #4
    Wartburg
    Registered Users Posts: 134 ✭✭Wartburg


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    Wartburg can I just ask regarding the 7mm gap, what is considered a good filling for this? Also any recommendation on the tape between the leaf and window frame? Im getting the same done as the OP soon and was a bit worried about how the new windows connect into the house so want to make sure the installers are using best practice or at least have some knowledge on what they should be doing.

    7mm is the minimum recommended gap. They operate with 10mm for white uPVC and 15mm for coloured windows in central Europe as coming from the code of practice. It´s common to fill the gap with expanding foam, but some attention is needed to fill it right. Cheap and cheerful foam, as used by the most installers, is mostly inappropriate, as well as having no nozzle for the foam gun to fill smaller gaps. You can either use a so called window tape for taping from the frame to the leave or a special sealant in case you just have to fill slim gaps. I know many people, getting their windows installed by the supplier, but doing the delicate details around themselves. The most window installers here in Ireland do still fly through the installation without any attention to the proper sealing around the window.


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    #5
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users Posts: 12,228 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    Are either off you considering EWI?
    then do the windows at the same time, fitting them to the outside of the outer leaf, ie hang them on the outside of the wall.
    The modern day pvc slip methodology looks crap IMO

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



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    #6
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,163 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    What's EWI? (google is no help unless you're talking about some kind of musical instrument apparently:o)

    Thanks for the info by the way folks, to be honest it's just making me more nervous about going ahead with it at all as it sounds like I can't trust the installers to do their due diligence going by what you're saying.

    Edit: Just copped EWI is external wall insulation, seems obvious now :pac:


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    #7
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users Posts: 19,615 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Wartburg wrote: »
    7mm is the minimum recommended gap. They operate with 10mm for white uPVC and 15mm for coloured windows in central Europe as coming from the code of practice. It´s common to fill the gap with expanding foam, but some attention is needed to fill it right. Cheap and cheerful foam, as used by the most installers, is mostly inappropriate, as well as having no nozzle for the foam gun to fill smaller gaps. You can either use a so called window tape for taping from the frame to the leave or a special sealant in case you just have to fill slim gaps. I know many people, getting their windows installed by the supplier, but doing the delicate details around themselves. The most window installers here in Ireland do still fly through the installation without any attention to the proper sealing around the window.

    thanks Wartburg, that is very valuable information. I have heard a couple of horror stories about windows and it wasnt the actual windows but the installation that was at fault and it is a very expensive fix. The company I'm using is 40+yrs in business but regardless I still have a fear that for all the money spent the actual installers on the day wouldnt seal and insulate correctly. Its a legitimate worry for the lay person so thanks for the information on what is best practice. Regards using a quality expanding foam- any recommendation on a brand? Presumably we're taking about a specialist product rather than standard Polyfilla expanding foam. The window frames are hopefully going to be in there for 25-30years so important the products connecting them to the house are good quality and stand the test of time.


    @Calahonda- Im planning on going with EWI but unfortunately cant afford it at the same time as the windows. I know you've said before that EWI and windows at the same time is optimum but my budget doesnt allow it and I need to move forward now to get the house warmer for winter. That said Im getting the windows hung flush with the outer wall in preparation for EWI. It might look silly for a year but preferable and less expensive than later moving them 10-15mm forward for the EWI insallation.


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    #8
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users Posts: 12,228 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    Flush with the outer wall is not what I have in mind, they are hung on the outside.
    A bloke called SAS did it here maybe 12 years ago.

    Have you done the math on the relative energy saving on going from, am assuming 2G to 3G.
    Unless the windows are absolute crap, then you can wait re replacing the windows.
    Make sure they are wind tight for now
    What SAS did re the door was build a porch that was thermally broken from the house

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



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    #9
    moldy_sea
    Registered Users Posts: 162 ✭✭moldy_sea


    Calahonda52 wrote: »
    Are either off you considering EWI?
    then do the windows at the same time, fitting them to the outside of the outer leaf, ie hang them on the outside of the wall.
    The modern day pvc slip methodology looks crap IMO

    What's the rationale for this? Not obvious to me.


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    #10
    Wartburg
    Registered Users Posts: 134 ✭✭Wartburg


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    The window frames are hopefully going to be in there for 25-30years so important the products connecting them to the house are good quality and stand the test of time.

    You pointed out the average life expectancy for new windows absolutely right. Unfortunately some "professionals, you can trust" supply and install the way that you do not have any joy on their windows after 10-15 years anymore.
    But you have it in your hand, by asking some detailed questions about installation details. That separates usually the semi-professional from the expert.


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    #11
    Matlock637
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭Matlock637


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    Hi Guys,

    We're currently looking at getting some work done on our 3 bed semi. The house was built late 90's and has a BER of C1 (I think) so it's not freezing but can be improved.

    Mainly we're looking at getting rid of drafts and improving insulation so we're getting the walls pumped and the attic insulation upgraded and our air vents replaced withlunos ones with better noise dampening and draught protection, along with extractors in the bathrooms.

    We're also looking at replacing all the windows and the front door ,probably going to go triple glazed.

    The main question i have is around the window replacements, are we going to get any benefit from triple glazed windows if we don't remove the internal reveals and add airtight tape? This doesn't seem to be something the window company are willing to do themselves so it would involve getting another contractor to do it and would make the window retrofit a bigger job, is there any point in even replacing the windows if we don't do this?

    Any advice is greatly appreciated.

    If your really nervous about the quality of the work ,you will need to take your time and find someone you trust .

    fitting windows to an existing building ,the frame will need to be behind the outside reveal by 5 mm all around to facilitate a good bond with silicone .also the window will need to sit on top of a good bond of silicone .
    A new build will have reveals plastered up to the frame after its fitted.

    If a window company doesn't want to take the inside reveals off you can do it yourself and they can sign off on only fitting the windows
    .theres nothing to it a youtube search would show you how to take the reveals off..this would leave ample room for the window to be fitted and taped/foamed .the fitter will love the reveal off ,handy fitting for them .

    You can then hire a plasterer to do you new reveals .that leaves painting afterwards .ok if your redecorating .

    another option is you can also cut a rebate the width of the frame on the inside reveal and the window will slot into it ,but this way you wont get foam or tape into .getting the house insulated after the new windows fitted would solve this .

    The main thing is that the window is behind the outside concrete reveal up tight to it .
    Take care .


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    #12
    macannrb
    Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭macannrb


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    Mainly we're looking at getting rid of drafts and improving insulation so we're getting the walls pumped and the attic insulation upgraded and our air vents replaced withlunos ones with better noise dampening and draught protection, along with extractors in the bathrooms.

    hey mickeroo, how did you get on with this job in the end? Did you go ahead with it in the end? How did you get on with the Lunos? what was the biggest difference in improving the draft and insulation?


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    #13
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,163 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    macannrb wrote: »
    hey mickeroo, how did you get on with this job in the end? Did you go ahead with it in the end? How did you get on with the Lunos? what was the biggest difference in improving the draft and insulation?

    We're happy enough with the Lunos, they're definitely an improvement over the bog standard holes in the wall we had before and being able to close them properly if there is strong wind on one side of the house is handy. They are still just holes in the wall though at the end of the day, albeit fancier ones, so if it's stormy out and the wind is blowing right on them they can cause a bit of heat loss, which is why it's good to be able to close them. The lunos extractors work very well, mirrors don't even fog up when we shower now.

    Overall happy with them but I will say if you can close up the holes in the wall altogether and get a centralised ventilation system with heat recovery that would be a much better option.

    We also got the walls pumped and attic done too but the windows and new door made a bigger difference I think. The attic insulation made a noticeable difference to upstairs though to be fair, we barely have to have heating on upstairs at all now even in winter.

    Any questions let me know.


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    #14
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users Posts: 19,615 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Mick on the Lunos which model units did you go with in the end? And how do you find them for noise, are they audible if sitting about 3 metres from the unit. Was there any noticeable change in air quality/freshness in the house with it running all the time?

    Also how did you tackle the attic insulation, rolls or spray foam? Tips here much appreciated as Im thinking of doing it in the next couple of months


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    #15
    Damien360
    Registered Users Posts: 6,354 ✭✭✭Damien360


    I just spotted this thread so I hope you don’t mind me jumping in asking. I’m looking for ventilation for a bathroom to primarily prevent mould building (we get some despite having windows open after showers) and one in the living room. House is semi D, 3 bed, pumped walls, windows are new (4 years) double glazed. Attic insulated to floor, static vents across attic roof to prevent mould that we saw on beams (worked).

    I have looked at the Lunos website and I am left with a few questions. Which model as I don’t have option for centralised heat recovery. Are these static or powered ? Do they have to be level (holes in mine are not completely level). Noise if powered is a big issue for us. As poster above asked, are they noisy ? When you close them, is this physical movement of plate or powered ?


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    #16
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,163 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    Mick on the Lunos which model units did you go with in the end? And how do you find them for noise, are they audible if sitting about 3 metres from the unit. Was there any noticeable change in air quality/freshness in the house with it running all the time?

    Also how did you tackle the attic insulation, rolls or spray foam? Tips here much appreciated as Im thinking of doing it in the next couple of months

    The extractors are the Silvento ones and the vents are the ALD-160 so they are the dumb ones with no heat recovery or electricity connection required.

    Pretty sure it's this extractor though may be the slightly older model we have: http://www.lunos.ie/product-details.php?ID=235

    And these are the vents: http://www.lunos.ie/product-details.php?ID=109

    The silvento is not noisy at all, we sleep in the room with the en suite where it's always going and once you're not actually in the en suite you can't hear it even with the door ajar. When it's boosting you will hear it though but it only does that when we're showering and it detects the rise in humidity. You can also just turn it off at the isolator switch if you don't want it on at all. I'm not sure if you'd be able to hear 3 metres away in the same room, with the door open I can't hear it from the hall or in the next room for either one.

    The air definitely feels a bit fresher in the house but we didn't really have too much issues with air

    For attic insulation we went with Sheep's Wool, herself wanted to go for that for environmental/health reasons, it seems to work great but it was a good bit more expensive than the rock wool.
    Damien360 wrote: »
    I just spotted this thread so I hope you don’t mind me jumping in asking. I’m looking for ventilation for a bathroom to primarily prevent mould building (we get some despite having windows open after showers) and one in the living room. House is semi D, 3 bed, pumped walls, windows are new (4 years) double glazed. Attic insulated to floor, static vents across attic roof to prevent mould that we saw on beams (worked).

    I have looked at the Lunos website and I am left with a few questions. Which model as I don’t have option for centralised heat recovery. Are these static or powered ? Do they have to be level (holes in mine are not completely level). Noise if powered is a big issue for us. As poster above asked, are they noisy ? When you close them, is this physical movement of plate or powered ?

    The extractors are the ones I linked above, in terms of an extractor fan they work very well. Our mirrors don't even fog up during a shower now. Your set up sounds very similar to ours before we got them in, 3 bed semi d with no extractors in the bathrooms previously so only relying on opening windows.

    In terms of opening and closing I was referring to the vents rather than the extractors, the extractors can't be closed just turned off. You can get similar vents to the ones I linked with heat recovery etc but they would be more expensive and need to be wired too. The ones we have are just static with no power (Ald-160 linked above), the existing vents had to be re-cored to get them to fit.

    If you're happy enough with your existing vents you could just get the extractors put in.


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    #17
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users Posts: 19,615 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Thanks for the info Mickeroo, very helpful. Think I'll go with the Lunos eventually but need to get the attic priortised first, no point having fresh air if its still freezing upstairs in the winter! Good to hear they are not that noisy, they claim less than 50db on their site but good to hear real world experience.


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    #18
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,163 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    Herself was worried about noise before we got them in too and they've been no issue whatsoever in that regard so I'd be confident enough you shouldn't have an issue with noise. I certainly can't hear them unless I'm in the actual room they're in anyway.


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