Renault Zoe heavy refresh nearly here.

adunis · 05-11-2019 2:20pm

I got the impression Bjorn thought there was something up with that particular car,all I can say is my ze 4.0 is doing 240ish at the moment to offer a direct comparison my Ioniq is back at 180ish......from summer 290/300 and 205/220

charlieIRL · 05-11-2019 2:26pm

We haven't noticed any drop in range in the work Zoe here with the colder weather, I have in the eGolf though. Still getting 270/280kms out of a charge. (ZE40 BTW)

McGiver · 05-11-2019 4:22pm

unkel wrote: »

270km is a very decent range in general and more than most people need. But not so much from a 52kWh battery pack. It implies a consumption of over 19kWh/100km which is atrocious for a small supermini car at those speeds. My own EV is far bigger and consumes about 14kWh/100km in winter on average. Less if driven at Leaf speed.

If you could get the Zoe for under €20k on the road, it wouldn't be a bad deal. But unfortunately it is far more expensive than that. And not even the top of the range model has active cruise control. Which is just having a laugh. Another newly introduced EV that is p1ss poor value for money. We have seen that pattern on this forum for a few years now

He had winter tyres, big deal. And the car was cold.

rivegauche · 05-11-2019 6:13pm

charlieIRL wrote: »

We haven't noticed any drop in range in the work Zoe here with the colder weather, I have in the eGolf though. Still getting 270/280kms out of a charge. (ZE40 BTW)

Last week I got over 250km range out of a trip to and from the airport and then some more. I was driving about 100kmph averaged out over the trip which is a bit slow on a motorway. ZE40 R110.
It was night time with rain on the way back.

beauf · 05-11-2019 6:41pm

unkel wrote: »

270km is a very decent range in general and more than most people need. But not so much from a 52kWh battery pack. It implies a consumption of over 19kWh/100km which is atrocious for a small supermini car at those speeds. My own EV is far bigger and consumes about 14kWh/100km in winter on average. Less if driven at Leaf speed.

If you could get the Zoe for under €20k on the road, it wouldn't be a bad deal. But unfortunately it is far more expensive than that. And not even the top of the range model has active cruise control. Which is just having a laugh. Another newly introduced EV that is p1ss poor value for money. We have seen that pattern on this forum for a few years now

Poor value is one thing. But that doesn't make it a poor winter car in itself.

rivegauche · 06-11-2019 4:06pm

beauf wrote: »

Poor value is one thing. But that doesn't make it a poor winter car in itself.

TBF the warm air feed to the footwell is poor and those headlamps are poor still. I may like my Zoe but it has its limitations. Range isn't the biggest issue for a ZE40.

w124man · 30-11-2019 9:11pm

Interesting wee discussion on the Zoe. I drove the 2020 GT version in LHD today down in the Wexford Renault dealer. Quite impressed and it had all the toys. No prices until mid Jan but its on my list of cars for her indoors.

Will I get ten years out of one without massive battery degradation?

unkel · 30-11-2019 10:44pm

w124man wrote: »

Will I get ten years out of one without massive battery degradation?

In Ireland, I would expect the battery of any new EV bought today to have between 70-90% capacity left after 10 years, to give you a ballpark figure. Depends on the mileage of the car, the battery chemistry used, who makes the batteries, etc.

They did a survey of the now older Tesla Model S and it lost about 1% capacity per year, but even older Tesla batteries are better than most new ones from other manufacturers

w124man · 01-12-2019 8:30pm

Perhaps its a case of waiting for a while, maybe a year or two until a new generation of EV battery appears

unkel · 01-12-2019 9:37pm

Why would you? Even in the worst case scenario of 30% degradation in 10 years, the car is still perfectly usable. Perhaps no longer enough range for you, but will be fine for other people. And the car will be worth a hell of a lot more than a 10 year old ICE car.

And there won't be any new generation EV battery in the next year or two, maybe in the next decade or two.

listermint · 02-12-2019 12:13pm

unkel wrote: »

Why would you? Even in the worst case scenario of 30% degradation in 10 years, the car is still perfectly usable. Perhaps no longer enough range for you, but will be fine for other people. And the car will be worth a hell of a lot more than a 10 year old ICE car.

And there won't be any new generation EV battery in the next year or two, maybe in the next decade or two.

We can speculate but i would say decade or 2 would be way out there. Money is pouring into the sector. Traditional energy companies have already seriously made or are examining ways into the sector. The suppression of old technologies that actually did occur under the weight of old energy sector money has ended. I think we will see the advances like Solid state batteries coming into reality inside 10 years.

Money is a fierce lubricator, similar to war.

unkel · 02-12-2019 12:38pm

listermint wrote: »

I think we will see the advances like Solid state batteries coming into reality inside 10 years.

As in commercially available in budget cars like the Renault Zoe? I hope you are right. I did say decade or two. But to expect it in the next year or two is plain ludicrous.

02-12-2019 12:45pm

Who knows what the future holds, I'm anti Hydrogen at this point in time due it's horrible efficiency and ability to being controlled and taxed similar to liquid fuels.

However, R&D is ramping up with Nuclear, I've always said Nuclear is the future and I really believe it's the only way if we are to reduce our reliance on fossil fuels, renewables will only play a small part and the amount of kw/hrs in fossil fuels is mind boggling especially when you want to replace that with another form of energy.

There's a reason Bill Gates and others is funding this research, imagine a nuclear reactor that needs to be fuelled once in 60 odd years ? well that's the reactor terra power is working on, TWP I think they call it if I remember correctly.

We can generate Hydrogen with Nuclear cleanly, electricity, think about it, if we need to replace heating oil and gas ? that's probably going to be electricity, that's a huge amount of energy, then petrol, diesel , be it hydrogen or electricity to replace petrol and diesel still means even more massive amounts of energy. This can only be replaced with Nuclear.

I was in Galway at the weekend and the amount of wind turbines I saw in one area has completely destroyed the entire area. Nuclear could replace all of this.

Imagine a EV with 40 Kwh battery and Hydrogen generator , a bit like the Rex only using a Fuel Cell.

ELM327 · 02-12-2019 1:52pm

unkel wrote: »

270km is a very decent range in general and more than most people need. But not so much from a 52kWh battery pack. It implies a consumption of over 19kWh/100km which is atrocious for a small supermini car at those speeds. My own EV is far bigger and consumes about 14kWh/100km in winter on average. Less if driven at Leaf speed.

If you could get the Zoe for under €20k on the road, it wouldn't be a bad deal. But unfortunately it is far more expensive than that. And not even the top of the range model has active cruise control. Which is just having a laugh. Another newly introduced EV that is p1ss poor value for money. We have seen that pattern on this forum for a few years now

Try 16kWh in the real world if it even smells a motorway or heating.

w124man wrote: »

Perhaps its a case of waiting for a while, maybe a year or two until a new generation of EV battery appears

Sure keep waiting and waiting. In the meantime we'll enjoy all the incentives

:D

Deleted User wrote: »

Who knows what the future holds, I'm anti Hydrogen at this point in time due it's horrible efficiency and ability to being controlled and taxed similar to liquid fuels.

However, R&D is ramping up with Nuclear, I've always said Nuclear is the future and I really believe it's the only way if we are to reduce our reliance on fossil fuels, renewables will only play a small part and the amount of kw/hrs in fossil fuels is mind boggling especially when you want to replace that with another form of energy.

There's a reason Bill Gates and others is funding this research, imagine a nuclear reactor that needs to be fuelled once in 60 odd years ? well that's the reactor terra power is working on, TWP I think they call it if I remember correctly.

We can generate Hydrogen with Nuclear cleanly, electricity, think about it, if we need to replace heating oil and gas ? that's probably going to be electricity, that's a huge amount of energy, then petrol, diesel , be it hydrogen or electricity to replace petrol and diesel still means even more massive amounts of energy. This can only be replaced with Nuclear.

I was in Galway at the weekend and the amount of wind turbines I saw in one area has completely destroyed the entire area. Nuclear could replace all of this.

Imagine a EV with 40 Kwh battery and Hydrogen generator , a bit like the Rex only using a Fuel Cell.

LOL at hydrogen. It's been the next big thing for 50 years, yet the mirai (most popular H2 car) gets 60mpgE. Crap.

listermint · 02-12-2019 2:07pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Who knows what the future holds, I'm anti Hydrogen at this point in time due it's horrible efficiency and ability to being controlled and taxed similar to liquid fuels.

However, R&D is ramping up with Nuclear, I've always said Nuclear is the future and I really believe it's the only way if we are to reduce our reliance on fossil fuels, renewables will only play a small part and the amount of kw/hrs in fossil fuels is mind boggling especially when you want to replace that with another form of energy.

There's a reason Bill Gates and others is funding this research, imagine a nuclear reactor that needs to be fuelled once in 60 odd years ? well that's the reactor terra power is working on, TWP I think they call it if I remember correctly.

We can generate Hydrogen with Nuclear cleanly, electricity, think about it, if we need to replace heating oil and gas ? that's probably going to be electricity, that's a huge amount of energy, then petrol, diesel , be it hydrogen or electricity to replace petrol and diesel still means even more massive amounts of energy. This can only be replaced with Nuclear.

I was in Galway at the weekend and the amount of wind turbines I saw in one area has completely destroyed the entire area. Nuclear could replace all of this.

Imagine a EV with 40 Kwh battery and Hydrogen generator , a bit like the Rex only using a Fuel Cell.

way of topic for the Zoe i think we can all agree.

however Nuclear has its uses, but bringing it widescale like this, no thanks. Where do you put all of the waste? not in Mad Lads back yard i can imagine.

Its funny people get caught up about wind turbines but dont have the same concern for spent nuclear rods...

I have turbines visibly 15 km east and west in either direction from my house and i dont get upset about their visible impact at all. I think they look pretty cool tbh.

unkel · 02-12-2019 2:56pm

Nuclear fusion was first created by man about 80 years ago. 40 years ago people said it would be with us commercially within a decade or two. People still say the same thing now.

McGiver · 02-12-2019 3:14pm

ELM327 wrote: »

LOL at hydrogen. It's been the next big thing for 50 years, yet the mirai (most popular H2 car) gets 60mpgE. Crap.

I'm quite skeptical towards HFCVs. But mpg doesn't matter really. When industrial society transitioned to ICE, and that happened within a decade very quickly, anyone cared about mpg? Nope. If you have an energy surplus to generate "free fuel" then you don't care about mpg. But that's a hypothetical scenario, at the moment H2 is totally fossil fuel based and pushed by Big Oil, it's not generated from excess energy.

HFCVs for personal transport is a stupid idea anyway and won't happen unless some major breakthrough happens to reduce costs of manufacturing to BEV levels. It's just too complex=expensive tech at the moment, also needs actually rare metals as catalysts.

Once the cost drops then I could imagine BEV+HFCV hybrids for some industrial applications.

McGiver · 02-12-2019 3:15pm

unkel wrote: »

Nuclear fusion was first created by man about 80 years ago. 40 years ago people said it would be with us commercially within a decade or two. People still say the same thing now.

It's hard to contain the Sun in a power plant!

unkel · 02-12-2019 3:21pm

McGiver wrote: »

Once the cost drops then I could imagine BEV+HFCV hybrids for some industrial applications.

+1

And in transport maybe for shipping. Can't see it being used for anything smaller.

ELM327 · 02-12-2019 3:28pm

McGiver wrote: »

I'm quite skeptical towards HFCVs. But mpg doesn't matter really. When industrial society transitioned to ICE, and that happened within a decade very quickly, anyone cared about mpg? Nope. If you have an energy surplus to generate "free fuel" then you don't care about mpg. But that's a hypothetical scenario, at the moment H2 is totally fossil fuel based and pushed by Big Oil, it's not generated from excess energy.

HFCVs for personal transport is a stupid idea anyway and won't happen unless some major breakthrough happens to reduce costs of manufacturing to BEV levels. It's just too complex=expensive tech at the moment, also needs actually rare metals as catalysts.

Once the cost drops then I could imagine BEV+HFCV hybrids for some industrial applications.

The relevance of mpgE is in the inefficiency compared to other fossil fuels and to BEVs.

H2 is currently a fossil fuel, with 3kWh of energy required to "make" 1kWh of H2 for automotive use. It's not viable.

If tomorrow we had a network of solar and wind generated power to produce H2 by electrolysis and a network of stations with the same frequency of location as petrol then it is a viable option. But, BEV is better, you can plug in at home.

In 50-100 years time perhaps we will have PHEV with 150-300km EV range and a H2 tank for longer trips. Who knows. But it's not there yet, nor is it anywhere close.

What this has to do with the Zoe, I don't know.

w124man · 02-12-2019 10:13pm

unkel wrote: »

. And the car will be worth a hell of a lot more than a 10 year old ICE car.

And there won't be any new generation EV battery in the next year or two, maybe in the next decade or two.

Two points there. Why would you buy a battery car with a ten year old battery when its out of any warranty and is on the slippery slope to recycling? A ten year old ICE car will still be buzzing away.

Secondly, there's a company called Northvolt who are very busy on batteries at the moment as are most other suppliers

w124man · 02-12-2019 10:16pm

ELM327 wrote: »

Sure keep waiting and waiting. In the meantime we'll enjoy all the incentives :D

Incentives? Sure all that an incentive does is hold prices up! Take away the money supply and prices fall.

unkel · 02-12-2019 10:48pm

w124man wrote: »

Two points there. Why would you buy a battery car with a ten year old battery when its out of any warranty and is on the slippery slope to recycling? A ten year old ICE car will still be buzzing away.

A battery lasts decades. Even when the car is end of life after say 15 years, the battery will be taken out, is still worth thousands (in todays prices) and will start its second useful life as home or grid attached storage for the next few decades. To give you an idea, a 7 year old Tesla Model S has 15 battery packs that are worth over a grand each when the car is scrapped (because of a crash)

adunis · 23-12-2019 10:59am

Just to put this thread back on track
New Zoë is now on the Renault website
Basic play model still very good value and a fine car nicely updated etc.
BUT
add CCS and you have to start mid range and bigger engined and the pricing goes straight to not viable.
Especially now that the ID3 appears to be actually starting at 35k ergo the new VFM champ

Mike9832 · 23-12-2019 11:12am

Range calculator on site is pretty good

183km @ 120, winter, no heat

203km @ 120, summer, no a/c

unkel · 23-12-2019 4:31pm

adunis wrote: »

New Zoë is now on the Renault website
Basic play model still very good value

From €37k (minus €10k subsidy)

That's very poor value for money for a supermini in my book

It's bigger cousin car (Dacia Sandero) is €13k, it's bigger sister car (Renault Clio) is €16k

€27k net for a small EV is also only just a few grand less than the eGolf or the Leaf

Can't see these selling in numbers at all. Unless of courses massive discounts are available on these, which is likely the case as is in the UK. Don't buy these folks, unless you get €4k-€5k cash discount.

Joseph SEE · 23-12-2019 11:37pm

unkel wrote: »

From €37k (minus €10k subsidy)

That's very poor value for money for a supermini in my book

It's bigger cousin car (Dacia Sandero) is €13k, it's bigger sister car (Renault Clio) is €16k

€27k net for a small EV is also only just a few grand less than the eGolf or the Leaf

Can't see these selling in numbers at all. Unless of courses massive discounts are available on these, which is likely the case as is in the UK. Don't buy these folks, unless you get €4k-€5k cash discount.

It's the same B segment as a Golf. The Leaf is a C segment car and larger than either car.

There's a reason why the Zoe is the best selling car in Europe. It sells better than the rest.

Last time I checked the Sandero and Clio were not EVs and not even close to the specs of the Zoe. I don't why you're making such poor comparisons.

The Zoe will continue to sell well. I predict it will be there or thereabouts the best selling EV in Europe in 2020. Imagining it will do poorly is wishful thinking.

unkel · 24-12-2019 12:11am

Joseph SEE wrote: »

It's the same B segment as a Golf

No it isn't. Golf is a C-segment car (small family hatch), the Zoe is a B-segment car (supermini)

Joseph SEE wrote: »

Imagining it will do poorly is wishful thinking.

I actually like the Zoe. Unfortunately it is way overpriced for what it is. A (smaller battery if needs be) sub 20k Zoe would sell really well and deservedly so.

beauf · 24-12-2019 12:51am

Joseph wrote:

...There's a reason why the Zoe is the best selling car in Europe. It sells better than the rest.....Imagining it will do poorly is wishful thinking.

Are we not talking about Ireland not Europe? Leaf outsold it by a factor of 7 or something like that here in 2018. Why is the Zoe not as popular in Ireland.

Joseph SEE · 24-12-2019 3:31am

unkel wrote: »

No it isn't. Golf is a C-segment car (small family hatch), the Zoe is a B-segment car (supermini)

I actually like the Zoe. Unfortunately it is way overpriced for what it is. A (smaller battery if needs be) sub 20k Zoe would sell really well and deservedly so.

You're right. It is a C-segment. I didn't realise this. It's touch longer (~20cm) than the Zoe at 4.270m. I guess the Leaf is a large C-segment car then at 4.49m.

Mike9832 · 24-12-2019 9:15am

beauf wrote: »

Are we not talking about Ireland not Europe? Leaf outsold it by a factor of 7 or something like that here in 2018. Why is the Zoe not as popular in Ireland.

Well said

Agree with Unkel

To make it a success here Renault would have been better leaving the Zoe at 40kWh ( its got enough range for what it is ) and get price down to €20,000 or so

It's got no business competing against Leaf/ID3 etc at €27,000+ market

24-12-2019 1:52pm

Mike9832 wrote: »

Well said

Agree with Unkel

To make it a success here Renault would have been better leaving the Zoe at 40kWh ( its got enough range for what it is ) and get price down to €20,000 or so

It's got no business competing against Leaf/ID3 etc at €27,000+ market

There is no point building a battery with obsolete modules if the newer higher capacity ones can be built using roughly the same amount of raw materials.

The only way different battery options make sense if the lower capacity model actually has less modules. Like Kona 39/60 where the lower pack has two parallel sets of cells vs. three.

Mike9832 · 24-12-2019 2:10pm

samih wrote: »

There is no point building a battery with obsolete modules if the newer higher capacity ones can be built using roughly the same amount of raw materials.

The only way different battery options make sense if the lower capacity model actually has less modules. Like Kona 39/60 where the lower pack has two parallel sets of cells vs. three.

Could they not make a 40kWh pack with new batteries?

Or are they only availabe as a 52kWh :pac:

Lumen · 24-12-2019 4:56pm

Mike9832 wrote: »

Well said

Agree with Unkel

To make it a success here Renault would have been better leaving the Zoe at 40kWh ( its got enough range for what it is ) and get price down to €20,000 or so

It's got no business competing against Leaf/ID3 etc at €27,000+ market

If batteries are at 100/kWh then 20kWh only costs 2k + taxes. So there's no point producing a car with a third less range for 90% of the price.

Mike9832 · 24-12-2019 5:32pm

Lumen wrote: »

If batteries are at 100/kWh then 20kWh only costs 2k + taxes. So there's no point producing a car with a third less range for 90% of the price.

If batteries are 200/kWh?

Lumen · 24-12-2019 7:39pm

Mike9832 wrote: »

If batteries are 200/kWh?

If you think that's the case, why are manufacturers not generally producing cars with low capacity?

In any case, VW have claimed that they have hit 100, and I can't believe that they have magic sauce that PSA don't.

liamog · 24-12-2019 9:08pm

BNEF put the average price at $156/kWh at the pack level, down 13% from 2018.

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/12/04/powering-the-ev-revolution-battery-packs-now-at-156-kwh-13-lower-than-2018-finds-bnef/

Have Renault had to integrate lots of new tech for NCAP ratings? Actually that's a good question, when a battery increase occurs, do is it count as a new model for homologation? With an ICE you can get away without recertification until you do a refresh, but Renault seem to be upping the Zoe battery every 12/18 months.

Lumen · 24-12-2019 9:34pm

Ok, so if we take 170 EUR incl. VAT, for 10kWh that's still only 1700 EUR.

That's about the price of metallic paint, parking sensors and folding mirrors on a Golf.

Small battery cars don't make sense to me, except in PHEV form.

Mike9832 · 24-12-2019 10:46pm

liamog wrote: »

BNEF put the average price at $156/kWh at the pack level, down 13% from 2018.

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/12/04/powering-the-ev-revolution-battery-packs-now-at-156-kwh-13-lower-than-2018-finds-bnef/

Have Renault had to integrate lots of new tech for NCAP ratings? Actually that's a good question, when a battery increase occurs, do is it count as a new model for homologation? With an ICE you can get away without recertification until you do a refresh, but Renault seem to be upping the Zoe battery every 12/18 months.

Those battery prices can't be right, study looks a load of rubbish

So a Tesla Model S in 2012 had a €70,000 battery pack? For 11850 cells that could be got on ebay lol

Zoe almost €20,000 battery pack in 2012?

Why was the Zoe even cheaper in 2012 if the way bigger 52kWh battery today costs only €8,000

24-12-2019 10:50pm

Mike9832 wrote: »

Could they not make a 40kWh pack with new batteries?

Or are they only availabe as a 52kWh :pac:

That's not how it works if you want to keep the pack voltage at around 400 VDC max.

Mike9832 · 24-12-2019 10:55pm

samih wrote: »

That's not how it works if you want to keep the pack voltage at around 400 VDC max.

They couldnt make a 40kWh pack?

unkel · 25-12-2019 12:15am

Joseph SEE wrote: »

You're right. It is a C-segment. I didn't realise this. It's touch longer (~20cm) than the Zoe at 4.270m. I guess the Leaf is a large C-segment car then at 4.49m.

Yeah Leaf (and Ioniq) are officially C-segment I think, but they are similar size inside as the smaller D-segment cars like BMW 3-series and Tesla Model 3

Once I knew ID.3 had same seat width as Golf, and not the seat width of a Passat (as VW had promised), which incidentally is the same as Ioniq, I knew it was going to be too small for us (3 teenage kids), so I cancelled my order.

25-12-2019 1:08pm

Mike9832 wrote: »

They couldnt make a 40kWh pack?

They could do it but the resulting pack would have approx. 20 percent lower voltage than the current 40 kWh pack. That would in turn mean higher C rate demand for the same performance and as the new Zoe is more powerful anyway that would be a double whammy. The higher the C the higher the losses so the range of the car would be much lower than with the old pack.

The lower voltage would also negatively affect the maximum obtainable charge rate from the 50 kW/120 A CCS chargers.

adunis · 25-12-2019 10:32pm

Y'all are missing the point here the basic Zoë play is 110hp
Still has the 22kw charging capacity of the old Zoë and the 50kw battery I'd wager easy 380km summer range it has a better equipment tally interior build and finish than the old mid spec Zoë and the piss poor headlights are gone finally
For 27.5k,I'd buy one at the drop of a hat.

Adding Fast charging upping the spec etc etc makes a nonsense of it, a bit like the L62 to be honest

Old diesel · 26-12-2019 1:30am

adunis wrote: »

Y'all are missing the point here the basic Zoë play is 110hp
Still has the 22kw charging capacity of the old Zoë and the 50kw battery I'd wager easy 380km summer range it has a better equipment tally interior build and finish than the old mid spec Zoë and the piss poor headlights are gone finally
For 27.5k,I'd buy one at the drop of a hat.

Adding Fast charging upping the spec etc etc makes a nonsense of it, a bit like the L62 to be honest

Problem is that Renault want you to go to next model up (Iconic) to get CCS and even then pay extra for CCS.

Would be slow to take on a new Zoe with no CCS.

Only a couple of grand off an ID3 potentially too.

ID3 58 kw 1st edition is 35 k.

A 45 kw base NON 1st edition will come in at a tempting price.

30 k seems plausible for that car.

McGiver · 26-12-2019 9:33am

Old diesel wrote:

30 k seems plausible for that car.

It will be 28, base trim. Mid trim 33.

adunis · 26-12-2019 10:31am

Like I said base car =27.5k=good
The rest of them bad.
Also good old Ioniq if you can find a new old one 30k
E-golf in Jan if you can live with the range fancy one 34k?

The clear winner ID3 1st if it is actually 35k delivered
Finally a M3 competitor.......

timsey tiger · 27-12-2019 6:23pm

adunis wrote: »

The clear winner ID3 1st if it is actually 35k delivered
Finally a M3 competitor.......

~€35 VS €49 They are not in the same class at all.

liamog · 27-12-2019 8:43pm

Don't worry about it timsey_tiger, a lot of the EV naysayers seem to forget that cars can be sold at multiple price points/sizes etc.
I presume they must all be former Soviet Russian's where your choice was between the Lada and the Volga.

timsey tiger · 27-12-2019 9:01pm

I don't understand it at all. Maybe in the future tesla will move down the market with a wider range. But at the moment they are in the Audi to Porsche ++ portions of the VAG group.

I see it as an Apple type aspirational brand that is disrupting the market and may fell a few car versions of Nokias and Ericssons. Eventually the crowd will come, they just might be a new crowd the car Huaweis.

Renault Zoe heavy refresh nearly here.

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