New suckler scheme on per hectare basis!!

One of the conditions of the scheme is that all calves must be tested for BVD within 20 days of birth.
Is that already the rule at the moment?

Count Mondego wrote: »

You have to tag them within 21 days, not sure about time limit on sending the sample.

Exactly, a farmer could tag a calf on day 20 and that's in time but if he posts the sample off then they're going to be outside the 20 day limit for BVD testing which is a condition of this new scheme apparently.
This doesn't make any sense.

Doing a little research on this at the moment and found this buried somewhere

http://www.farmersjournal.ie/exclusive-details-of-new-suckler-support-scheme-revealed-179761/

From the article:
There will be seven key requirements for the scheme all centred on improving herd output. The breakdown is as follows:

1) Recording calving details: Farmers must carry out a calving ease survey on every cow calving on the farm and record it through animal events along with the tag number or AI code of the sire.

This requirement will account for 10% of the total payment.

2) Annual Farm Survey: From 2015, applicants will be required to complete a herd survey in respect of all cows, calves and stock bulls on his/her holding. Each year farmers will have to detail calf quality, docility, size and vigour along with details on scours and pneumonia. The milking ability of cows, docility and culling reasons will also have to be recorded annually along with the docility and functionality of stock bulls. From 2016, the survey will be extended to include more general farm practices around grassland management and herd health. The terms and conditions state that in order to ensure the validity of some of the data recorded calves must be maintained on the holding for at least five months.

This requirement will account for 25% of the total payment.

3) Genotyping: Applicants will be required to take a tissue tag sample from animals selected for genotyping by ICBF. Tissue samples must be taken and submitted for all of these animals. The number of animals genotyped each year will be at least equivalent to 60% of the number of calved suckler cows on the holding in 2014. This will prevent farmers from dramatically reducing cow numbers over the lifetime of the scheme. For example if an applicant calved down 15 eligible cows in 2014 he/she must maintain at least 9 eligible cows each year of the scheme.

This requirement will account for 20% of the total payment.

4) High genetic merit animals: For applicants using a stock bull, at least one bull on the farm must have been genotyped four or five star on either the terminal or replacement index (on within or across breed basis) at time of purchase. Farmers will have until the end of June 2019 to comply with this regulation. For the end of June 2016, 80% of AI used on participating holdings must be from four or five star bulls on either the terminal or replacement index.

This requirement will account for 10% of the total payment.

5) Female replacements: Scheme applicants are required to ensure that a percentage of their heifers/eligible suckler cows are genotyped females that are: four or five stars on the replacement index (either across or within breed) at the time of purchase or at the time of genotyping. Where a non-genotyped heifer is purchased this animal must be genotyped and subsequently confirmed four or five star on the replacement index. The conditions also state that the heifers are at least 16 months old and born in 2013 or later. By the end of October 2018, farmers must ensure that at least 20% of heifers/eligible cows comply with these regulations. The figure must increase to 50% by the end of October 2020.

This requirement will account for 20% of the total payment.

6) Complete a carbon navigator: All applicants in the scheme must complete a carbon navigator by the end of October 2016 and in each subsequent year of the scheme. In year one, the carbon navigator must be completed with the support of an approved advisor, the cost of which will be covered by the Department. Following the completion in year one applicants must submit data annually around areas such as grazing length, fertilizer use and slurry spreading.

This requirement will account for 10% of the total payment.

7) Farmer training: applicants will be required to attend specific training courses related to the scheme. Training must be completed by the end of October 2016. All applicants will be paid €166 to cover the costs associated with participation in the programme. This will be paid by the training provider directly to the scheme applicant upon completion of the course.


Also saw somewhere that DAFM will post out application forms to every suckler farmer in the coming days and weeks...

Figerty wrote: »

It sounds as though this scheme has been setup to provide financial to the Pure breed societies.

Not sure why you think that figerty. A lot of continental stock bulls will already be 4-5 star across breeds fo terminal which will leave them fit for the scheme. IMO the A.I companies are the ones set to gain. Lads breeding for 5 star replacement heifers will be using ai where it was never used before.

Grueller wrote: »

Not sure why you think that figerty. A lot of continental stock bulls will already be 4-5 star across breeds fo terminal which will leave them fit for the scheme. IMO the A.I companies are the ones set to gain. Lads breeding for 5 star replacement heifers will be using ai where it was never used before.

The initial scheme was to improve animal welfare and recording, this scheme seems to have moved too far.

4 and 5 star puts a lot of pressure on stock bull quality. No real problem with raising standards, but this is going to cause a lot of stress on heifers and cows from average herds with higher standard bulls needed. The aim, of course, is going raise beef standards which is a noble idea, but is the bar being set too high. I have had to compromise on easy calving AI bulls this year Vs quality due to work commitment preventing me being sure of being able to be in attendance at each calving.

There will be penalties for those that drop out or fail to meet the requirements if I have read the reports properly. This means that there is a huge onus on paper work and records; again arguable that it's merited for payment. However this puts a huge burden back on the farmer, and while I may be capable of handling this I can tell that probably 90% of me neighbours are too old to handle this stuff or not interested. My neighbours fell foul of the paper work in the first scheme; most dropped out.

The rating required are minimums,, for a herd to remain above these level there has to be a factor of safety. Should an animal die or perhaps some other misfortune happen is it possible that the thresholds will fail to be met? For small farmer these thresholds can be that small in a small herd. Over a six year period this is could be very difficult.

The last thing that galls me is the requirement to use 'approved planners' if I have the ability, motivation and time to prepare my own document in accordance to the guidelines why the hell should I have to pay a planner? It says that this will be covered in year 1.. but what happens after this?

This has the look of another GLAS scheme, over burdened by paper work and under-subscribed if predictions are correct.
This scheme has the look of being written for the pure breeders, their margins of safety on a scheme like this are already being met.. Michael O'Leary will do well from it..

I think the official documents will need to be scrutinised carefully; I hope we on boards can do that here and share opinions

Have been thinking about this for a couple of days.
1. A large number of suckler farmers are exiting for dairy, drystock, rearing replacements or whatever
2. Many suckler men are facing large cuts in sfp
3. The country is picking up atm and government budgets will increase.

With these three things in mind I believe that any suckler man would be better inside this scheme as I think the payment will increase in the lifetime of the scheme. Anybody else agree?

Bullocks wrote: »

Yup I can't see our black suckler going into the scheme . The money would be nice but they can **** off if they think I'll change to a 5 star herd of muscley , lacking in milk continentals and pretend that it's a great herd then . I thought the factories were saying that they didn't want these big carcase cattle either ?

Yeah, here's where they said it http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/questionable-exceptional-beef-grades-necessary-80-export-markets/

Angus and Hereford beef is walking off the shelves of the German supermarkets

Climate is getting wetter, there seems to be a new disease crisis every year so other factors like disease resistance and hardiness are also important, it takes alot of grain and fertilizer to fatten big cattle and stars don't always dictate the bottom dollar. This, and the unquestioned dairy expansion, seems to be Simon's "Bertie Bowl". Larry might not want to play there

https://webapp.icbf.com/active-bull-list/beef-maternal
ICBF Replacement List

https://webapp.icbf.com/active-bull-list/beef-terminal
ICBF Terminal List

Website that allows you to enter search criteria within various parameters, such as stars, calving difficulty, breed, AI company, etc. It's set up to be ideally viewed on a phone more than a computer but it's not horrible to look at on the comp lol

On a note of caution though, I checked out the website for the crowd we'd use for AI here and there appears to be some differences between the list of bulls they have and the list on the ICBF page.

have just read this full post,and here is what i think.
a joke
first all the money wasted in derrypatrick herd on big fancy cows, the research is saying the black lim/fr cow is the best.
second every vet in ireland must be rubbing his hands with all the work he is going to get from calving these 24 month five star heifers and all the zip jobs from the 5 star bulls,
third the planners more jam for filling forms,
fourth the AI stations for all the money to be made from selling poor bulls.
fifth the pedigree man for producing more pampered bulls with 5 stars.

and the main looser ICBF when it all falls flat in a big heap of what the cow produces from behind. the figures are all wrong and whos to blame for this the research crowds and the Ai station selling poor bulls from the same choosen few breeders and the pedigree breeder selling such pampered stock with false figures,

the old suckler scheme done great work getting calves dehorned and meal feeding opened so many fellows eyes as how to improve the animal for sale,
and what did the fool of a minister do when he got in, cut the money

this new scheme is designed for so many outside the farm gate and not the farmer who will be the looser from day one.

Sheep breeder wrote: »

have just read this full post,and here is what i think.
a joke
first all the money wasted in derrypatrick herd on big fancy cows, the research is saying the black lim/fr cow is the best.
second every vet in ireland must be rubbing his hands with all the work he is going to get from calving these 24 month five star heifers and all the zip jobs from the 5 star bulls,
third the planners more jam for filling forms,
fourth the AI stations for all the money to be made from selling poor bulls.
fifth the pedigree man for producing more pampered bulls with 5 stars.

and the main looser ICBF when it all falls flat in a big heap of what the cow produces from behind. the figures are all wrong and whos to blame for this the research crowds and the Ai station selling poor bulls from the same choosen few breeders and the pedigree breeder selling such pampered stock with false figures,

the old suckler scheme done great work getting calves dehorned and meal feeding opened so many fellows eyes as how to improve the animal for sale,
and what did the fool of a minister do when he got in, cut the money

this new scheme is designed for so many outside the farm gate and not the farmer who will be the looser from day one.

I can't agree about the vet with the sections. We run about 80 sucklers and use 5 star bulls on the terminal index and haven't had a section in three years.
I for one will be joining the scheme because in this suckling game you need every extra euro you can get. The paperwork will be a little onerous until we get used to it but all these surveys are tick the box options and very user friendly imo. I agree as I have already stated that the ai companies will be the big winners but in our case we stand to gain up to €5000 from this scheme. That breaks down as €100 a week. Let it be two hours extra per week over the year that is €50 per hour. They will be the best paid two hours work I will do on the farm every week anyhow.

Have not seen last weeks Journal but from reading posts on here this 95 euro scheme will not be too beneficial for a lot of suckler herds west of the Shannon which avg 10 cows or less.As one poster said what was wrong with the suckler welfare scheme which definitely tidied up a lot of fellas set ups re dehorning,proper weaning etc.People in Dept don't seem to realise that there are thousand of farmers who don't have 20 cows+

blue5000 wrote: »

the cost of which will be covered by the Department.

My reading of that line is that the cost wont come out of the farmers pocket

we run nearly all pure lim and char cows and breed to Ai as much as we can and are just afraid of the way icbf work out the stars for animals, and if a 5 star bull is used to serve the cows and when the calf arrives he is then only a 3 star will the first evaluation be used or the second as this is going to be a 6 year contract and if you do not comply will all the money have to be handed back that you have recieved,
the active bull list has the lim bull sympa on it from powerfull AI at 175 euros a straw cant see to many men using him to bull cross bred cows.

we try to produce what sells well as weanlings and do them well and breed our own replacements or buy good stock in to suit our system.