New suckler scheme on per hectare basis!!

50HX · 06-05-2015 12:24am

So it looks like we're effectively maxed out at our 2014 rate[/QUOTE]

that's what it looks like but i think we also need to take into account the "eligible hectares" which i imagine is what we submit on the BPS application

so for example(i think this is right) if you have 10 ha and only 8 are eligible and you had 15 cows calved in 2014 the total claimable HA is 10 but you can't as 2 are ineligible

it's just a mick in the kicky that 2014 is the qualifying year as I like a few of the previous post were/are down in numbers

all in all though if the average 15-20 cow herd is going to get 12-1500 pa you'd have to seriously look at it despite it's flaws

it's big money in such a tight margin enterprise that is suckling

the nagging thing for me is that the factories don't want big carcass animals - this scheme will drive it towards that
in hindsight are you not better off to go against what the dept/factories are looking for......remember the bull beef saga:eek:

aneala · 06-05-2015 12:29am

Western Pomise wrote: »

Have not seen last weeks Journal but from reading posts on here this 95 euro scheme will not be too beneficial for a lot of suckler herds west of the Shannon which avg 10 cows or less.As one poster said what was wrong with the suckler welfare scheme which definitely tidied up a lot of fellas set ups re dehorning,proper weaning etc.People in Dept don't seem to realise that there are thousand of farmers who don't have 20 cows+

Was the a Welfare scheme payment not based on number of animals also?

ellewood · 06-05-2015 6:52am

50HX wrote: »

So it looks like we're effectively maxed out at our 2014 rate

that's what it looks like but i think we also need to take into account the "eligible hectares" which i imagine is what we submit on the BPS application

so for example(i think this is right) if you have 10 ha and only 8 are eligible and you had 15 cows calved in 2014 the total claimable HA is 10 but you can't as 2 are ineligible

it's just a mick in the kicky that 2014 is the qualifying year as I like a few of the previous post were/are down in numbers

all in all though if the average 15-20 cow herd is going to get 12-1500 pa you'd have to seriously look at it despite it's flaws

it's big money in such a tight margin enterprise that is suckling

the nagging thing for me is that the factories don't want big carcass animals - this scheme will drive it towards that
in hindsight are you not better off to go against what the dept/factories are looking for......remember the bull beef saga:eek:[/quote]

The Bull beef 'saga' was never a saga it was just a fall guy for the oversupply of last year factories got the best of beef at a knockdown price they are activity looking for u16 nth bulls at the moment and even up to 24 mth with no weight restrictions The fact is that u16 mth bull beef done well is the most profitable suckling system there is and done well it will pay a lot more that this scheme which in principle I agree with but it just seems v hard to comply with

Toplink · 06-05-2015 11:24am

50HX wrote: »

The eligible hectares on which an applicant is entitled to claim will be equal to the number of calved cows on his/her holding in 2014 (known as reference animals) divided by a standard stocking rate of 1.5.

This is subject to a limit which is set by the eligible forage land declared by the applicant on his/her 2014 SPS application.

Have I got this right...?

I had 40 HA on the SPS application in 2014.

I calved down 20 cows in 2014.

20/1.5 = 13.33 eligible HA.

6.66 X 142.50 = 945
6.68 x 120 = 800

Total = 1745

Farmer · 06-05-2015 1:02pm

Toplink wrote: »

Have I got this right...?

I had 40 HA on the SPS application in 2014.

I calved down 20 cows in 2014.

20/1.5 = 13.33 eligible HA.

6.66 X 142.50 = 945
6.68 x 120 = 800

Total = 1745

That's about it I think. It rounds up to 1750 if you have enough 6's after the decimal point i.e same as
10 x 95 plus
10 x 80 per cow assuming you have enough hAs - 20/1.5 (which you have)

LivInt20 · 06-05-2015 1:10pm

Toplink wrote: »

Have I got this right...?

I had 40 HA on the SPS application in 2014.

I calved down 20 cows in 2014.

20/1.5 = 13.33 eligible HA.

6.66 X 142.50 = 945
6.68 x 120 = 800

Total = 1745

Correct.

Roughly 10 at €95 plus 10 at €80

Toplink · 06-05-2015 1:36pm

Thanks folks, alot of requirements there for 1750 euro a year but I suppose you'd be a long time making 1750 out of cattle.

morana · 06-05-2015 2:31pm

the Beef Data Genomics Programme application is available in agfood now.

Bleating Lamb · 06-05-2015 2:34pm

The biggest negative I can see in the scheme is the fact you will be locked in for 6 years.A lot can happen on any farm in that timescale.Currently have over 15 Sucklers here but with the 6/7 month winters on marginal land was thinking of decreasing cows/increasing sheep long before this scheme announced.
So dept are holding a gun to peoples heads saying either get in or out of sucklers.
In likes of my situation will there be no incentive to dehorn your calves at current age requirements,train them to eat krunch etc pre weaning if your not in this new scheme as a 'big' enough suckler farmer;),saying that slightly tongue in cheek.....but it will encourage the messy operators to go back to their old ways if their not entering the scheme.
one step forward,two steps back,there was nothing wrong with the Suckler Welfare Scheme as it was.

Charliebull · 06-05-2015 2:35pm

I am assuming that twins count as one calved cow,

also I am assuming that a calved cow whose calf subsequently died will also count once the calf was registered

50HX · 06-05-2015 4:02pm

morana wrote: »

the Beef Data Genomics Programme application is available in agfood now.

where abouts - can't find it on mine

Kovu · 06-05-2015 4:12pm

50HX wrote: »

where abouts - can't find it on mine

My arrow drawing skills are awesome :P

WOJLu2dl.png?2

RobinBanks · 06-05-2015 4:52pm

If the herd number was not in your name in 2014 does this mean you cannot apply. For farmers who only received a herd number in 2015 for example.

50HX · 06-05-2015 5:39pm

Kovu wrote: »

My arrow drawing skills are awesome :P

thanks....still not up on mine.......

Kovu · 06-05-2015 7:54pm

RobinBanks wrote: »

If the herd number was not in your name in 2014 does this mean you cannot apply. For farmers who only received a herd number in 2015 for example.

I've no idea, but the email I got gives this line
''Should you have any queries, please contact the Department at the following email address: beefschemes@agriculture.gov.ie''

Sure give them a shout maybe? We're signed up now anyway!

limo_100 · 06-05-2015 8:06pm

Kovu wrote: »

I've no idea, but the email I got gives this line
''Should you have any queries, please contact the Department at the following email address: beefschemes@agriculture.gov.ie''

Sure give them a shout maybe? We're signed up now anyway!

how can i sign up as i dont use agfood i no i should but theres a problem with the pps no and they keep putting me off onthe phone

Kovu · 06-05-2015 8:18pm

limo_100 wrote: »

how can i sign up as i dont use agfood i no i should but theres a problem with the pps no and they keep putting me off onthe phone

From the Terms & Conditions on Dept site- http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/farmingschemesandpayments/beefdataprogrammebdp/2015/BDGP050515.pdf

To make an application for participation, the applicant shall complete an application form. The completed application form must be submitted directly to Beef Schemes Section, Government Offices, Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Old
Abbeyleix Road, Portlaoise, Co. Laois.

I don't think the forms have been sent out yet; Not available on the Agfood site anyway but as soon as I hear anything I'll update here.

limo_100 · 06-05-2015 8:37pm

Kovu wrote: »

From the Terms & Conditions on Dept site- http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/farmingschemesandpayments/beefdataprogrammebdp/2015/BDGP050515.pdf

To make an application for participation, the applicant shall complete an application form. The completed application form must be submitted directly to Beef Schemes Section, Government Offices, Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Old
Abbeyleix Road, Portlaoise, Co. Laois.

I don't think the forms have been sent out yet; Not available on the Agfood site anyway but as soon as I hear anything I'll update here.

thanks kovu what are the benefits of being on the agfood what do you use it for bar registering calves, i do record a good bit of info on icbf

Kovu · 06-05-2015 8:53pm

limo_100 wrote: »

thanks kovu what are the benefits of being on the agfood what do you use it for bar registering calves, i do record a good bit of info on icbf

I find it very good for going back on cattle in the herd on certain years, we have it all in the AI recording book but I'm not always at home to check it. I remember I got stuck one night on it going back to the early 90's seeing the breeds of the cattle when I was too young to remember. There are loads of parts I don't bother much with like the payments area as our planner manages all of it.

Just a lot less hassle for calves and the suckler scheme when we started that. Plus Dad can't use a computer so at least I can be told I'm useful for something....:D

kelslat · 06-05-2015 9:29pm

Grueller wrote: »

Thats actually better for you as you are obliged to keep less stock should anything happen, may have to test less and nothing to stop you expanding to 1.5 times your hectares in cows.
Edited to say you also may need less 4&5 star females as these are calculated on your reference year also from my reading of the details.

So if someone with a low stocking rate wants they can up suckler cow numbers to 1.5 times your hectares in cows and get paid on that amount or are you capped at the amount of cows you had in 2014? What about heifers that calve into the herd as 2 year olds?

Grueller · 06-05-2015 11:23pm

kelslat wrote: »

So if someone with a low stocking rate wants they can up suckler cow numbers to 1.5 times your hectares in cows and get paid on that amount or are you capped at the amount of cows you had in 2014? What about heifers that calve into the herd as 2 year olds?

That was pointed out to me as being wrong since I think. Tied to 2014 numbers apparently.

kelslat · 07-05-2015 8:31am

On the conditions it also says replacement heifers at 16 months old. Does this mean that heifers can go to the bull at 16 months at the earliest? I calf down the replacements at 24 months so it looks like they have to calf down at 25 months to qualify. I had a fair few calving down at that age(23-24 months) in 2014, most of which are still in the herd.

blue5000 · 07-05-2015 10:14am

Calving at 25 months is ridiculous, if you wait another month to bull them they are going to calve a month later than the main bunch of cows start calving. If you want a compact calving season, say 12 weeks, you've only got 8 weeks to get first calvers to go in calf if you want to maintain the calving pattern of the whole herd.

It would be better to calve heifers a month before the main herd, this would give them a better chance to go back in calf again after the first calf. What civil servant bollix dreamt this crap up?

kelslat · 07-05-2015 10:58am

blue5000 wrote: »

Calving at 25 months is ridiculous, if you wait another month to bull them they are going to calve a month later than the main bunch of cows start calving. If you want a compact calving season, say 12 weeks, you've only got 8 weeks to get first calvers to go in calf if you want to maintain the calving pattern of the whole herd.

It would be better to calve heifers a month before the main herd, this would give them a better chance to go back in calf again after the first calf. What civil servant bollix dreamt this crap up?

It is going against everything we have being doing and told to do so far. Will we be paid on heifers that calved at 23-24 months old in 2014?

LivInt20 · 07-05-2015 11:04am

kelslat wrote: »

On the conditions it also says replacement heifers at 16 months old. Does this mean that heifers can go to the bull at 16 months at the earliest? I calf down the replacements at 24 months so it looks like they have to calf down at 25 months to qualify. I had a fair few calving down at that age(23-24 months) in 2014, most of which are still in the herd.

No this does not mean heifers cannot go to the bull until 16 months.

The exact requirement is as follows:

Female replacements
Programme applicants are required to ensure that a percentage of their heifers/eligible suckler cows
(rounded to the nearest animal) are genotyped females that are:
(i) 4 or 5 stars on the replacement index (on a within breed or on a cross breed basis) at the time of
purchase (for heifers brought into the herd) or at the time of genotyping (for those replacements bred
within the herd). Where a non-genotyped replacement heifer is purchased, this animal must be
subsequently genotyped and confirmed 4 or 5 stars on the replacement index (on a within or an
across breed basis) before being deemed eligible for the Programme.
(ii) at least 16 months old and;
(iii) born in 2013 or later.
The number of heifers/eligible suckler cows meeting these requirements on each holding on 31st October
2018 must be equivalent to 20% of the number of the applicant’s reference animals (advised to
applicants upon acceptance into the Programme), and on 31st October 2020 must be equivalent to 50% of
the number of the applicant’s reference animals.

So this means to be tested she can be incalf, maiden, barren, twin, lesbian but to count towards either the 20% or 50% she must bo over 16 months when tested.

LivInt20 · 07-05-2015 11:08am

blue5000 wrote: »

Calving at 25 months is ridiculous, if you wait another month to bull them they are going to calve a month later than the main bunch of cows start calving. If you want a compact calving season, say 12 weeks, you've only got 8 weeks to get first calvers to go in calf if you want to maintain the calving pattern of the whole herd.

It would be better to calve heifers a month before the main herd, this would give them a better chance to go back in calf again after the first calf. What civil servant bollix dreamt this crap up?

There is no mention in the scheme of waiting to 16 months to bull the heifer.

At this stage this forum is becoming a moan fest. Last week lads/lassies were giving out about calving at 24 months. This week giving out about not being able to calve at 24 months.

There is no mention anywhere in the new scheme about what age heifers calve at.

Please read the T&Cs before complaining about something that is not there at all!!

LivInt20 · 07-05-2015 11:11am

Actually here is the full T&Cs for anybody not able to find them.

http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/farmingschemesandpayments/beefdataprogrammebdp/2015/BDGP050515.pdf

The aim of the scheme is to increase the profitability of suckler farmers by breeding better cows. This is not a scheme to hand out easy money to farmers for doing nothing to improve their herd.

There is various research to backup the ideas behind the scheme for anybody interested in reading it.

kelslat · 07-05-2015 11:18am

Ok that 16 months old thing was a bit confusing when i read it last night. thanks for clearing that up. Moaning and asking a question are two different things though.

Farrell · 07-05-2015 12:49pm

Toplink wrote: »

Have I got this right...?

I had 40 HA on the SPS application in 2014.

I calved down 20 cows in 2014.

20/1.5 = 13.33 eligible HA.

6.66 X 142.50 = 945
6.68 x 120 = 800

Total = 1745

Based on example above, if you calves 18 but bought 2 with calves at foot.
Is it based on 18 or 20, similar if you sold the 2?

Dozer1 · 07-05-2015 3:07pm

surely this part will affect a lot of farmers who may be have been leasing land and lost it, seems a bit unfair to force lads who may have improved their own farms increased stocking rate and then dropped expensive rented ground.

"... if the land on your holding decreases by more than 20% of the amount set in 2014, then you will be disqualified from the program"

I'll be close enough to the mark on this one as I bought land last year and had rented land aswell, I've dropped the rented land and its just under the 20% mark but only just.
I've other rented ground that the lease expires in 2 years that I'd planned on dropping and now I can't judging by this.

for a guy with small numbers it could force you into taking land you might not want/need/afford to stay in the scheme

Nettleman · 07-05-2015 3:15pm

Dozer1 wrote: »

surely this part will affect a lot of farmers who may be have been leasing land and lost it, seems a bit unfair to force lads who may have improved their own farms increased stocking rate and then dropped expensive rented ground.

"... if the land on your holding decreases by more than 20% of the amount set in 2014, then you will be disqualified from the program"

I'll be close enough to the mark on this one as I bought land last year and had rented land aswell, I've dropped the rented land and its just under the 20% mark but only just.
I've other rented ground that the lease expires in 2 years that I'd planned on dropping and now I can't judging by this.

for a guy with small numbers it could force you into taking land you might not want/need/afford to stay in the scheme

Application form with todays postman-its already in the bin.

ellewood · 07-05-2015 3:42pm

Dozer1 wrote: »

surely this part will affect a lot of farmers who may be have been leasing land and lost it, seems a bit unfair to force lads who may have improved their own farms increased stocking rate and then dropped expensive rented ground.

"... if the land on your holding decreases by more than 20% of the amount set in 2014, then you will be disqualified from the program"

I'll be close enough to the mark on this one as I bought land last year and had rented land aswell, I've dropped the rented land and its just under the 20% mark but only just.
I've other rented ground that the lease expires in 2 years that I'd planned on dropping and now I can't judging by this.

for a guy with small numbers it could force you into taking land you might not want/need/afford to stay in the scheme

Well that's me gone so I'm down 50% on last year Doesn't make much sense that because one of the biggest draws on profitability on suckle farms around here is lads that are half stocked on their own farms renting more ground at high rents Why I don't know - maybe it's something to do with Sfp? But they rent more ground but have same no. Of cows
Surely it should be incentvising lads to inprove output and profit by maximising output and not forcing them to rent more ground just to tick a box

blue5000 · 07-05-2015 4:33pm

LivInt20 wrote: »

There is no mention in the scheme of waiting to 16 months to bull the heifer.

At this stage this forum is becoming a moan fest. Last week lads/lassies were giving out about calving at 24 months. This week giving out about not being able to calve at 24 months.

There is no mention anywhere in the new scheme about what age heifers calve at.

Please read the T&Cs before complaining about something that is not there at all!!

Touchy today aren't we, I was responding to Kelslat's post. Thanks anyway for posting T&C's, we are all much wiser now after wading through 20 pages of a spriel from the minister who can at his discretion move the goalposts anytime he likes in the future:rolleyes:

Dozer1 · 07-05-2015 4:36pm

I rang them and surprisingly at 4pm there was no answer, in the T&C doc they said the Dept could change the year to 2015 in exceptional circumstances.

I'll probably have to opt out if its the case. Like yourself I was cutting down on rent and establishing a 1 block farm,
better get into GLAS instead, sickened if to leave any money unclaimed as I'm a firm believe the only guaranteed money in farming is the cheque in the post.

Overall I think its a good scheme for what its worth, its up to everyone to decide if its for them or not.

Mad4simmental · 07-05-2015 11:44pm

Emailed the department today asking about maiden heifers and cows as we were 50/50 last year and the maidens don't qualify. So no deal, it's not worth the hassle.

tanko · 08-05-2015 12:21am

Mad4simmental wrote: »

Emailed the department today asking about maiden heifers and cows as we were 50/50 last year and the maidens don't qualify. So no deal, it's not worth the hassle.

Surely with the quality of your females at least 20% of them would be 4/5 star animals at the moment?

Mad4simmental · 08-05-2015 8:48am

tanko wrote: »

Surely with the quality of your females at least 20% of them would be 4/5 star animals at the moment?

They should be, they are all by 4/5* bulls going back a few generations but I didn't have many cows last year and I have a good few new girls being introduced this year but I'm told they don't qualify as they are maidens in the reference year 2014?

Dozer1 · 08-05-2015 10:41am

in fairness to the Dept they rang back this morning, their guy said if the example is
40 HA on the SPS application in 2014.
20 cows calved in 2014.
20/1.5 = 13.33 eligible HA.

so its the 13.33HA you can't go 20% below not the number of HA on your 2014 SPS application.

sorry for any confusion caused

Toplink · 08-05-2015 10:48am

Dozer1 wrote: »

in fairness to the Dept they rang back this morning, their guy said if the example is
40 HA on the SPS application in 2014.
20 cows calved in 2014.
20/1.5 = 13.33 eligible HA.

so its the 13.33HA you can't go 20% below not the number of HA on your 2014 SPS application.

sorry for any confusion caused

Nice to know the Department are using my sample from boards.ie

Kovu · 08-05-2015 11:12am

Toplink wrote: »

Nice to know the Department are using my sample from boards.ie

I wonder if they can tell us what happens if a bulls stars fall to three after being 4/5 for a year. :P

Nettleman · 08-05-2015 11:15am

Kovu wrote: »

I wonder if they can tell us what happens if a bulls stars fall to three after being 4/5 for a year. :P

we are all afraid to post a reply to that incase we are "outed":D:D

Kovu · 08-05-2015 11:23am

Nettleman wrote: »

we are all afraid to post a reply to that incase we are "outed":D:D

Sure there's a PM function isn't there! If a mod can't be trusted to keep her gob shut we're all lost causes :P

LivInt20 · 08-05-2015 11:40am

Kovu wrote: »

I wonder if they can tell us what happens if a bulls stars fall to three after being 4/5 for a year. :P

The 4/5 star test is based on the date of purchase.

For applicants using a stock bull, at least one stock bull on the holding on 30th June 2019 must have been
a genotyped 4 or 5 star bull on either the Terminal or Replacement index (on a within or across breed
basis) at the time of purchase.

Kovu · 08-05-2015 11:48am

LivInt20 wrote: »

The 4/5 star test is based on the date of purchase.

For applicants using a stock bull, at least one stock bull on the holding on 30th June 2019 must have been
a genotyped 4 or 5 star bull on either the Terminal or Replacement index (on a within or across breed
basis) at the time of purchase.

Thanks for that.
Does the same apply for AI though? Lets say I buy 20 AI straws of a 4 star bull today and on the next evaluation date he goes down to 3 stars.
Are my straws then valued at time of purchase or are they useless to me?

LivInt20 · 08-05-2015 1:18pm

Kovu wrote: »

Thanks for that.
Does the same apply for AI though? Lets say I buy 20 AI straws of a 4 star bull today and on the next evaluation date he goes down to 3 stars.
Are my straws then valued at time of purchase or are they useless to me?

I would image that it is the date used. But it would be unlikely he would fall from 4 to 3 across all four star ratings.

From 30th June 2016, at least 80% of the AI used on participating holdings must be from 4 or 5 star bulls
on either the Terminal or Replacement index (on a within breed or an across breed basis).

skoger · 08-05-2015 3:11pm

Has anyone got results from the genomic testing we did last year? It seems to have disappeared from the icbf website. It would be nice to see what info farmers can get/use from those tests before signing up for another 6 years of testing

Charliebull · 08-05-2015 3:38pm

skoger wrote: »

Has anyone got results from the genomic testing we did last year? It seems to have disappeared from the icbf website. It would be nice to see what info farmers can get/use from those tests before signing up for another 6 years of testing

what i would like to know is when we will be told what animals have to be tested this year, what use is it when they are all gone out

LivInt20 · 08-05-2015 3:39pm

Charliebull wrote: »

what i would like to know is when we will be told what animals have to be tested this year, what use is it when they are all gone out

Would September suit you?

ellewood · 08-05-2015 4:26pm

Charliebull wrote: »

what i would like to know is when we will be told what animals have to be tested this year, what use is it when they are all gone out

Yea you would never find them again let alone get them back in, after leaving them out - that's the trouble with having 1000's of acres.
ðŸ˜†

Charliebull · 08-05-2015 9:16pm

LivInt20 wrote: »

Would September suit you?

I've never had to house an animal in September yet ,
I'd doubt you did too, anytime from mid November to May would suit, I know it's only a six month window

New suckler scheme on per hectare basis!!

Comments