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Irish Senior Championships 2015

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  • Registered Users Posts: 398 ✭✭sinbad68


    cdeb wrote: »
    Quite a tournament for the player who "shouldn't be there"! Dylan Boland beats John Kennedy, having drawn with Anthony Fox, both times with white.

    Now faces his second FM - and someone who was his coach with the Ireland under-19s training panel earlier in the year.

    He got one win! .One swallow doesn't make it a summer .His presence has created odd number in the tournament and has forced a qualified player that " should be there", to miss a game every day of this tournament.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,156 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Won one, drawn one, got one bye. Performance rating 2100 or so so far. And now playing a second FM. Coming on the back of six training sessions with the Ireland under 19s, this is a rare positive for the ICU this year. His rating in January was 1330, but the ICU is giving juniors a proper chance to improve where they've earned it. They deserve a bit of credit for that.

    Every player at the tournament is equally responsible for there being a bye. Byes happen. I'm sure the eight other players will get over it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 285 ✭✭checknraise


    I would disagree about the byes, everyone is giving up 9 days to play chess and everything should be done to ensure nobody gets a bye. That is however only the tournament directors fault but the lowest rated player should not have been allowed play.

    The player in question would have had a monster position against Stephen Brady if he had played e5 instead of pxd5 on move 11.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 39 Zugszwang


    11. e5 Ne4 12. Ndxe4 dxe4 13. Qg4 Kf8 gives White a nice game for the pawn, but that's all. Anyway, it's great to see a newcomer doing well, I don't think we should connect that to general discussions about byes and rating limits.


  • Registered Users Posts: 398 ✭✭sinbad68


    I would disagree about the byes, everyone is giving up 9 days to play chess and everything should be done to ensure nobody gets a bye. That is however only the tournament directors fault but the lowest rated player should not have been allowed play.

    @checknraise . you are absolutely right . ICU runs this competition and should launch an investigation into how this, one and only unqualified player got in while many much higher rated juniors ended up playing in the lower section, he also played in senior section of malahide being way below entry bar . You need good bit of clout & connection to do this .
    There really is a need for stopping this kind of shenanigans. I don't actually mind wild card entries to senior section ,such as a rapid play off to win places but should be in an open and transparent manner .

    *snip* MOD: Please don't be making wild accusations without any proof you might get yourself into trouble, plus we use €€ in this country ;)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    should launch an investigation

    dr-evil-right.gif


  • Registered Users Posts: 444 ✭✭brilliantboy


    sinbad68 wrote: »
    @checknraise . you are absolutely right . ICU runs this competition and should launch an investigation into how this, one and only unqualified player got in while many much higher rated juniors ended up playing in the lower section, he also played in senior section of malahide being way below entry bar . You need good bit of clout & connection to do this .
    There really is a need for stopping this kind of shenanigans. I don't actually mind wild card entries to senior section ,such as a rapid play off to win places but should be in an open and transparent manner .

    Yes. Of all the things the ICU need to sort out right now that should be number one priority. Protecting people from marauding juniors hungry for their rating points :rolleyes:

    The lad is sitting on 2.5 points after 5 rounds despite being vastly outrated. Looks plenty qualified to me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 398 ✭✭sinbad68


    Sparks wrote: »
    dr-evil-right.gif

    And you want me to take you seriously ? :P
    Yes. Of all the things the ICU need to sort out right now that should be number one priority. Protecting people from marauding juniors hungry for their rating points :rolleyes:

    The lad is sitting on 2.5 points after 5 rounds despite being vastly outrated. Looks plenty qualified to me.

    His score is irrelevant ( one point was a bye ) , what's important is that his presence has ruined a day for 8 qualified player as they have to get byes and jumping the que ahead of more deserving juniors.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    sinbad68 wrote: »
    And you want me to take you seriously ?
    There are many things that are very important to me; your opinions sadly didn't make the list this year, but keep trying, you never know!
    His score is irrelevant ( one point was a bye )
    Actually, no, it really isn't. Let's take a look, shall we?

    First game, he was outrated by 667 points, which when you check the odds tables, gave him odds of winning of just barely over 1%. And yes, he did indeed lose. 46 moves in, in the endgame, which he got to with level material. Hardly a rout. Quite respectable in fact.
    Second game, he's outrated by 353 points, which gives him odds of winning of about 10%. And he draws.
    And third game, he's outrated by 392 points, which gives him odds of winning of about 8% and he won outright.

    Those are what you call statistically significant results and I urge you to click on that link and read it to understand what I'm saying there.
    what's important is that his presence has ruined a day for 8 qualified player as they have to get byes and jumping the que ahead of more deserving juniors.
    No, what's important is that a promising junior is doing well in a large competition and getting good results, well above what his rating suggests he should be getting, and that means we have another good player on the scene which is great for the game overall and there basically are no downsides to this at all.

    Now if you think there are more deserving juniors who applied and were turned down, name them. Otherwise, you're just griping because a junior is doing well, and that's pretty much the direct opposite of good sportsmanship and decent behaviour.

    As to your suggestion for the ICU, well, first of all the ICU is an NGB, not a character in a badly written police procedural TV show so they don't "launch an investigation" for about seventy reasons, not least of which is that even typing that should have put one thought in your head which was:

    380.gif
    seriously, how did you even type that in with a straight face?

    Secondly, if they were to sit down and ask themselves questions, I think "How did that kid who did so well get in here" would not be one that should be at the top of the list, especially with all the nonsense going on with them right now. "How the hell do we fix this enormous mess we've walked ourselves into?" might be a better place to start...


  • Registered Users Posts: 398 ✭✭sinbad68


    Sparks wrote: »
    There are many things that are very important to me; your opinions sadly didn't make the list this year, but keep trying, you never know!.

    You certainly seem to be spending an awful amount of time & energy responding to opinions that are Not important to you , no ? ....:)

    As regards result mattering, this 16 year old ( oh! No ! not another one :eek:), in his last tournament, came dead last in malahide senior , I'm sure a great mind like yourself won't know anything about coming dead last in a tournament :D

    I argue for justice , fairness and equal opportunity for the juniors & adults , while you have already admitted to believe in discrimination. Anyway As I said before, I don't believe is pointless arguments and will leave it at that for the moment, If you want to get the last word in to feel better , go for it tiger :cool:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,334 ✭✭✭reunion


    sinbad68 wrote: »
    ICU runs this competition and should launch an investigation into how this, one and only unqualified player got in while many much higher rated juniors ended up playing in the lower section, he also played in senior section of malahide being way below entry bar .

    1. The icu don't care about rating bands to tournaments. This they leave to the tournament organisers.

    2. The icu are complying with a passed motion at the agm which permits the icu executive, the junior officer or last year's winners of different irish titles to play. This should have been included on promotional material and a list of nominated individuals published on the icu site. It is unclear how the player qualified but unless the icu refuse to rate this event, we can take it to mean this player qualified.

    3. There is a 50 50 chance of an odd number. Previous irish championships have had odd numbers. Players would be aware of this risk and would factor in this choice when playing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    sinbad68 wrote: »
    this 16 year old ... came dead last in malahide senior...
    And is now playing in the Irish Championships and winning games and placing in the middle of the field, while you... aren't.
    I argue for justice , fairness and ...
    The American Way?

    Adventures_of_Superman_Vol_1_596_Textless.jpg
    If you want to get the last word in

    Can it be "sassafras"? It's languishing as a word, it really could use some love.


  • Registered Users Posts: 285 ✭✭checknraise


    1. Agree 100%
    2. Possible unlikely tho seeing as the ICU exec have dismissed nearly every other motion from the AGM
    3. Completely wrong. Anybody who is eligible to play has to be allowed play but everything should be done to ensure a bye is not given. Anybody who does not meet the full entry criteria should have their entry provisionally accepted on the basis of a even number.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,863 ✭✭✭mikhail


    Anybody who is eligible to play has to be allowed play but everything should be done to ensure a bye is not given. Anybody who does not meet the full entry criteria should have their entry provisionally accepted on the basis of a even number.
    I think I entered the Irish (some dozens of points shy of the 1900 requirement) one year on those grounds (i.e. that I would only enter if my entry made the numbers even). I think Mick Crowe may have suggested it to me when I hummed and hawed about entering. I think it's a decent way to run things if possible, but mostly I think we should leave petty details like this in the hands of the controllers. If nothing else, the kid in question doesn't deserve to have bull**** like what sinbad has written about him.
    sinbad68 wrote: »
    @checknraise . you are absolutely right . ICU runs this competition and should launch an investigation into how this, one and only unqualified player got in while many much higher rated juniors ended up playing in the lower section, he also played in senior section of malahide being way below entry bar . You need good bit of clout & connection to do this .
    You know how this actually happens? He asks nicely. Not everything is a conspiracy.

    *Snip*


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,334 ✭✭✭reunion


    1. Agree 100%
    2. Possible unlikely tho seeing as the ICU exec have dismissed nearly every other motion from the AGM
    3. Completely wrong. Anybody who is eligible to play has to be allowed play but everything should be done to ensure a bye is not given. Anybody who does not meet the full entry criteria should have their entry provisionally accepted on the basis of a even number.

    2. They should really inform members about why they are ignoring the agm requirements. Or as is the case here, following an agm requirement but not informing members. Either transparency or publicity is a current problem.

    3. Every player currently meets the criteria to play. Since the 2013 event was the last event i know of that had a player playing when there were uneven players in rounds. A player can pull out due to sickness or a poor streak (or a bad loss) which means you'd need a player willing to play the full 9 rounds but also not play if someone pulled out mid tournament.

    I would think the player getting the bye could use the extra time to train and prepare. Which could mean a stronger game and improvement in chess overall. There are positives and negatives.

    The only way you eliminate uneven numbers is making the event invite only and limited to a set number of players.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    reunion wrote: »
    The only way you eliminate uneven numbers is making the event invite only and limited to a set number of players.
    And have a rule that if someone refuses an invite/gets sick/gets hit by a bus/is delayed on any day coming in by some unavoidable unforeseeable event, that they and someone else are kicked out of the event (otherwise byes are inevitable)

    You wouldn't want to hold it in 'flu season...


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,164 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1m1tless


    Lads try to not make it personal

    If we all played chess as good as we complained, the tournament would be much bigger! :D


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16 maol


    Short, Brady and Jessel all won to share first place heading into the final three games. With Fitzsimons and O'Donnell just a half-point adrift it's still anyone's tournament! Of the top 6 seeds, it's really only Daly is out of contention now. Great win for Short over Fitzsimons this round to stop the no. 1 seed running away with it. Fitzsimons and Jessel still have to play each other while O'Donnell is likely to have Brady, Daly and Short in the final rounds. Could it be a chance for one of the old guard, Brady or Short, to add another title to their collection?!


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,164 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1m1tless


    Thanks for the summary!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16 maol


    Can anyone remember seeing an Irish so open coming into the final weekend? A 7-way tie between the top six seeds and Macelligott is a possibility! Of the joint leaders, Jessel and Short, Jessel has the easier run in with an off-form Daly as White today and a low (but dangerous) seed in the final round. Short has O'Donnell with Black today and in all likelihood Daly tomorrow. Brady is a half-point of the lead, but having played at the top seeds he could easily finish with 2/2. I suspect Jessel will take the title on 7.5/9, but there's a distinct chance it will be shared on 7/9, probably between Jessel and Brady and very possibly Short. Of course Short could win outright on 7.5 as well, it's all yet to be decided!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 273 ✭✭EnPassant


    maol wrote: »
    Can anyone remember seeing an Irish so open coming into the final weekend? A 7-way tie between the top six seeds and Macelligott is a possibility! Of the joint leaders, Jessel and Short, Jessel has the easier run in with an off-form Daly as White today and a low (but dangerous) seed in the final round. Short has O'Donnell with Black today and in all likelihood Daly tomorrow. Brady is a half-point of the lead, but having played at the top seeds he could easily finish with 2/2. I suspect Jessel will take the title on 7.5/9, but there's a distinct chance it will be shared on 7/9, probably between Jessel and Brady and very possibly Short. Of course Short could win outright on 7.5 as well, it's all yet to be decided!

    Just left playing venue.

    Short a pawn up v Daly in queen ending with good chances.
    Brady drew with O'Connell.
    Jessel a pawn up v Harding but in opposite colour bishop endgame.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16 maol


    All top three boards drawn. Short and Brady are joint Irish champions! It's 19 years since Short last won the title (jointly). I wonder if this is a record?


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,156 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    I would disagree about the byes, everyone is giving up 9 days to play chess and everything should be done to ensure nobody gets a bye. That is however only the tournament directors fault but the lowest rated player should not have been allowed play.

    The player in question would have had a monster position against Stephen Brady if he had played e5 instead of pxd5 on move 11.
    Have been away for the past few days and while most of the above has been answered in the meantime, I just want to add the point that it's rather unfair to ask the lowest-rated player to step down if there's an odd number. He wasn't the last to enter so far as I know - why should his entry be ok at one stage but not ok later on? It makes no sense.

    And well done to "the player in question" on a final score of 3/8 - three defeats against FMs, but unbeaten the rest of the tournament. Up 120 points or so by my reckoning, to the cusp of 1800. Entirely justifies the invite and the AGM motion, in my opinion.
    maol wrote: »
    All top three boards drawn. Short and Brady are joint Irish champions! It's 19 years since Short last won the title (jointly). I wonder if this is a record?
    Are they joint champions or is there a tie-break? The results site lists Short as 1st and Brady as 2nd.

    Gerry O'Connell still Stephen Brady's nemesis, even though they're now at the same club!


  • Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭HaraldSchmidt


    maol wrote: »
    All top three boards drawn. Short and Brady are joint Irish champions! It's 19 years since Short last won the title (jointly). I wonder if this is a record?

    Short shared the title with David Dunne in 1981. Tony Doyle produced a booklet of the tournament, and the inside front cover has a photo of the winners. Philip looks like Rory Gallagher, with long shoulder-length hair.

    A 34 year gap between the first and last time somebody has won is definitely a record. J.J. O'Hanlon won his first championship in 1912, and his last in 1940, a gap of 28 years.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16 maol


    Short shared the title with David Dunne in 1981.

    I know this well, that was the first Irish I played in :-) The record I meant was for consecutive wins, sorry I didn't make that clear.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,156 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Do you mean successive wins (i.e. with no win in between times?)


  • Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭HaraldSchmidt


    maol wrote: »
    I know this well, that was the first Irish I played in :-) The record I meant was for consecutive wins, sorry I didn't make that clear.

    You made it perfectly clear, but I didn't look this up on IRLChess.

    I just had a quick look on IRLChess, but the list if winners of the Irish Championship only goes back as far as 1998.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 954 ✭✭✭Tim Harding


    cdeb wrote: »
    Have been away for the past few days and while most of the above has been answered in the meantime, I just want to add the point that it's rather unfair to ask the lowest-rated player to step down if there's an odd number. He wasn't the last to enter so far as I know - why should his entry be ok at one stage but not ok later on?

    I decided not to post again about the tournament until it was over, but I have to correct an incorrect statement made above. Otherwise I don't want to get into any controversies here but just present some facts and personal views. I shall read responses to this long post but probably will not post again.

    I was watching the entries closely over the days leading up to the tournament (in order to prepare) and the player mentioned who entered at the last minute did have a much lower FIDE rating than anyone else. He was below 1700 and the next lowest was 1859. You are partly right in that he didn't have the lowest ICU rating but FIDE ratings apply in the championship and that is why he had the round one bye. I do agree his play on the whole justified his inclusion; inter alia, he drew with me by tenacious defence in 102 moves despite standing worse at nearly all stages of the game.

    I definitely think that the speculative posting of possible entrants on the ICU website was distinctly unhelpful and was probably resented by some of the people named who did not intend to play. In fact two players were briefly listed as confirmed entries only to have their names removed from the list. I wasted some time looking at their opening repertoires in the database.

    The size of the field was much smaller than I expected for a tournament held in the capital, and there was a distinct shortage of players in the 2050-2200 range. Possibly, though I'm not sure as I don't compete very often in the Irish Championship, the late (post-Easter) confirmation of the date and venue may have deterred some entries because of people needing to arrange holidays well in advance, or maybe deciding to play some other event as a result of the uncertainty. When the list did go up online, the number of juniors on it possibly deterred others from entering.

    Returning to the performance of the young players, this may have been a special case this year (because of Ireland hosting the junior internationals) but the effect of their inclusion was magnified by the field being so small was rather to distort the event because most of them played better in the first three or four rounds than they did subsequently. (I have compiled an Excel spreadsheet to analyse the results but won't bore you with them here.)

    The bye was an aggravating complication, modified by Gerry O'Connell taking a mid-way half-point bye for family reasons. This probably spared O'Gorman receiving the bye.

    Excluding O'Donnell from the following comments (as he's already over 2200 and by now very experienced in tournaments), I suppose all but one of the teenage competitors benefited from the experience, but some of them looked very tired towards the end and their standard of play seemed to decline. The player with the lowest ICU rating had a very hard time and I hope his confidence is restored before the Glorney Cup. The only game he won was in an ending of R and a-pawn against R where the experienced MacElligott missed a forced draw (because of the clock I suppose) .

    It is hard for anyone to play nine competitive games on successive days without a rest day but most of them did have the bye at some stage. I don't know why Mulligan was unable to play on the last day against Li. It should also be noted that Li and O'Gorman only reach the age of 13 this year.

    On the rating issue raised by some people earlier, yes there may be a case (in view of the large number of under-rated teenagers) for ratings from the event to be recomputed iteratively, i.e. feed in the ratings achieved by the juniors on a first pass, with their high K, and then compensate the adult opponents accordingly. I don't know the rating rules; maybe this will be done anyway by FIDE and/or ICU.

    Probably I will lose a lot of rating points chiefly because I didn't win several good positions but the main issue is that I had to play somebody rated 1682 when the lower ceiling specified on the entry form was 1900. I think everyone who played that young man would like to know what compensation, if any, will be applied in either or both of the two rating systems.

    I did not enter the tournament to gain rating points or expect to win a prize, but I did think (based on last year's field size and composition) that when I paid my 75 Euro entry fee that I would be sure to meet on average opposition rated at my level (2085 FIDE before the event) and maybe higher if I didn't go below 50 per cent (which I didn't), resulting in more or less no change in rating or just a small gain or loss. Some of the other middle-ranked adults in the field probably had similar expectations. Actually I met a 2024 average (lower on ICU ratings)

    Efforts were made to improve the playing conditions after the first weekend and the arbiter Ivan Baburin deserves compliments and thanks for running the event smoothly under the circumstances, and for inputting the game scores (several of which were of marginal legibility) and posting them online at the Chess-Results site.

    I also recommend that the ICU drop the title "Irish Senior Championship" in future years and call the tournament just "Irish Championship" or some variant on that. In most chess-playing countries and FIDE the word "senior" now denotes events for players in the 50+ and 65+ age groups. It's particularly relevant when scores get into databases and people won't realise the games are actually from the premier national event of Ireland.

    My final comment is to ask why don't people post here under their real names (as in the English Chess Forum where it's required, I think.) I think there ought to be a properly moderated (and not anonymous) Irish Chess Forum, in which case I might visit and post more often.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,156 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    I think everyone who played that young man would like to know what compensation, if any, will be applied in either or both of the two rating systems.
    In the FIDE rating system, as the player doesn't have a full FIDE rating, the games against him are unrated for his opponents.

    In the ICU system, as the player got bonus points, I think his opponents are rated against the player's post-tournament rating, which I reckon will be around 1800.

    If he was the last player to enter, then I stand corrected. But I still think the idea that the lowest-rated player in any tournament should be withdrawn in the event of an odd number of entrants is inherently unfair.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    My final comment is to ask why don't people post here under their real names (as in the English Chess Forum where it's required, I think.) I think there ought to be a properly moderated (and not anonymous) Irish Chess Forum, in which case I might visit and post more often.

    People who wish to do so may; but it's not required by boards.ie and seeking to force people to reveal their identities if they don't wish to is against boards.ie rules.

    Also, not to be impolite, but simply stating your name or having it as your handle isn't proof that the person writing the post is the named person. Nobody knows you're a dog on the internet and so forth. Without some pretty invasive and unpleasant and ultimately ineffective measures, it simply is not possible to have any discussion forum on the internet, no matter who is running it, where the poster's real identities is guaranteed to be known 100% of the time (and that's without allowing for the possibility of someone physically standing up from their keyboard and going for a cup of tea and leaving themselves logged in in an environment when someone else could walk up to their computer and post things from their account, which happens so regularly that facebook users now have a specific word for it). And given the degree of malice that certain actors in this little system show and have shown for some time, you could be reasonably sure that efforts would be made to impersonate people for "humorous" reasons...

    And speaking purely personally, if the ICU was running a chess forum, I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole right now given the degree of unpleasantness I'd expect to see from there. To say nothing of concerns over security and personal data; we've already seen in the last week that security on ancillary sites isn't taken seriously by them; the idea of them running sites that would have access to things like my home address or any form of payment information would be rather disturbing at the moment.


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