Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

total former · 06-07-2015 4:19pm

awec wrote: »

Dawson's comments indicate Leinster expect him back.

Ah yeah, I'm just talking shyte, but it's odd that Cheika has thrown the rule book out the window for a non-core player.

LostArt · 06-07-2015 4:22pm

total former wrote: »

Ah yeah, I'm just talking shyte, but it's odd that Cheika has thrown the rule book out the window for a non-core player.

Cheika rated him really highly at the Waratahs though

Kiwi_knock · 06-07-2015 4:34pm

total former wrote: »

Ah yeah, I'm just talking shyte, but it's odd that Cheika has thrown the rule book out the window for a non-core player.

I don't think he is non-core for Cheika though, he is one of his favourite players. When Douglas was continually being linked with a return to Australia a few months ago, Cheika did say that Douglas was the best Australian second row. Cheika isn't bringing him back as a squad player, I say he is looking to partner him with Skelton.

total former · 06-07-2015 4:42pm

LostArt wrote: »

Cheika rated him really highly at the Waratahs though

Kiwi_knock wrote: »

I don't think he is non-core for Cheika though, he is one of his favourite players. When Douglas was continually being linked with a return to Australia a few months ago, Cheika did say that Douglas was the best Australian second row. Cheika isn't bringing him back as a squad player, I say he is looking to partner him with Skelton.

It's more that Cheika was allowed to pick him that I find interesting.

The ARU have been fighting for years to keep their guys at home, now they've just given up on it? It's an odd one.

Kiwi_knock · 06-07-2015 4:49pm

total former wrote: »

It's more that Cheika was allowed to pick him that I find interesting.

The ARU have been fighting for years to keep their guys at home, now they've just given up on it? It's an odd one.

I wouldn't be surprised if Cheika was issuing ultimatums to the ARU. The ARU were criticised for not backing McKenzie over the texting episode so are probably doing their most to go along with Cheika's wishes.

total former · 06-07-2015 4:57pm

Kiwi_knock wrote: »

I wouldn't be surprised if Cheika was issuing ultimatums to the ARU. The ARU were criticised for not backing McKenzie over the texting episode so are probably doing their most to go along with Cheika's wishes.

Hopefully.

From a Leinster perspective, if he makes the squad for the 4N and the World Cup, he'll be wrecked again next season. Not ideal.

If he comes back...

thomond2006 · 06-07-2015 5:23pm

While clubs cannot block players under World Rugby regulations*, I'm sure players like Douglas are signed on the "understanding" that they are done with international rugby while there. The only benefit to Leinster here is if Douglas is the star of the tournament and therefore helps Leinster's profile.

*Although I read on PR that Andries Bekker's Japanese club stopped him from joining the SA squad...

Clearlier · 06-07-2015 5:28pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

While clubs cannot block players under World Rugby regulations*, I'm sure players like Douglas are signed on the "understanding" that they are done with international rugby while there. The only benefit to Leinster here is if Douglas is the star of the tournament and therefore helps Leinster's profile.

*Although I read on PR that Andries Bekker's Japanese club stopped him from joining the SA squad...

We should send Cheika a few videos of his performances for Leinster...

While I wouldn't want Leinster to stop someone playing in the RWCI'll still be very disappointed if he does go. I thought that with a proper pre-season this year that he would go really well for Leinster and be a cornerstone of the team during the world cup.

Zuffer · 06-07-2015 5:41pm

The calling up of Douglas to the training sqaud is mainly bad for Leinster.

I would not like Leinster to interfere in any way with an international's prospects, so Leinster's statement hits all the right notes for me.

I don't see Australia modifying their call up criteria again before the world cup. However, I'd guess that Douglas could become eligible to be picked for the final squad by breaking his Leinster contract and stating his intent to return to the southern hemisphere after the world cup. Hence Easterby's comments about expecting Douglas back to Leinster.

I don't think Douglas is going to make the final squad, so all this will achieve is to take him out of the Leinster pre-season environment, and disrupt his preparation for next season.

smiley_face · 06-07-2015 6:06pm

stephen_n wrote: »

Time is running out for Madigan at Leinster, with players coming through who can potentially play better at 10 and 12, if he doesn't cement his place somewhere in the team this season, he'll be bench warming a lot and that won't do anything for his international hopes.

I'm inclined to agree with this point.
Does anyone think it's possible that Madigan will not make the 31 for the RWC and be available for Leinster?
He'd have a chance to impress if he had a few months as Leinster's 1st choice 10 during the RWC.
If for the RWC one of D'Arcy/Reid/Cave/Fitzgerald is selected as Inside centre cover and Jackson is selected as 10 cover, then there'd be no need for a 3rd choice replacement for 10 and 12 in the final squad of 31 I would think.
I'd be interested to see him play 10 for Leinster for a few months to see if he could impress with his kicking from hand and game management.
If he performed well you never know what could happen; Sexton could pick up an injury in the RWC allowing Madigan to continue as 1st choice 10 for Leinster, and he could possibly get ahead of Jackson for Irish team selection for the 6 Nations.
(Keatley would need to play out of his skin to get back into the Irish setup, and in my opinion Tyler Bleyendaal is looking likely to become Munster's 1st choice 10 for the season anyway.)

total former · 06-07-2015 6:56pm

No, I'd be very surprised to see Madigan miss out on the RWC.

Podge_irl · 06-07-2015 7:03pm

I could very easily see the reasoning for neither Madigan going or Jones going for example, I'm not sure I'd bring either myself, but it would completely fly in the face of all evidence of selection we have thus far. Madigan is going.

smiley_face · 06-07-2015 7:12pm

total former wrote: »

No, I'd be very surprised to see Madigan miss out on the RWC.

Then not select either of Reid or D'Arcy?
Cave and Fitzgerald would still have a chance though covering other positions.
Strikes me as odd bringing Reid and D'Arcy into the training camp at all then.
Would have thought it would be Jackson or Madigan, and Reid/D'arcy or Cave.
Leaves Reid free for Leinster though.

Swiwi. · 06-07-2015 7:13pm

total former wrote: »

No, I'd be very surprised to see Madigan miss out on the RWC.

There is no way he'd miss out. You need 3 flyhalves. If Madigan doesn't go as the 3rd flyhalf, please name me an alternative in the squad selected by Schmidt? He's turned out overall to be fairly underwhelming, but his goalkicking is class, he covers a few positions off the bench, and he seems to play better in green than blue.

I'd bet my house on his name being in the 31 barring injury or a complete meltdown in the warmup matches. 10 is one of least interesting spots to debate for ireland i would have thought.

bilston · 06-07-2015 7:16pm

Question that may have been discussed here already, I don't know, but assuming Sexton and Madigan both travel and given Gopperth is away to Wasps, who starts at 10 for you during the WC? I'm hoping it's Byrne as I think that kid just looks to the manor born (albeit at a significantly lower level than Pro 12). Is there anyone else? Is Reid exclusively a 12 these days or can he play 10 as well?

Also is Ringrose likely to feature during the WC? I suppose Te'o will be there and if he isn't starting at 10 then Reid will presumably be at 12 (not sure what the craic is with D'Arcy if he doesn't make the WC squad, will he still be available for Leinster or will he just retire?).

Edit - a quick scan of the last 4 or 5 pages suggests the out half question may have been answered somewhere already!!!

Podge_irl · 06-07-2015 7:27pm

Reid is most definitely just a 12 and fairly certain D'Arcy has played his last game for Leinster.

bilston · 06-07-2015 7:28pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Reid is most definitely just a 12 and fairly certain D'Arcy has played his last game for Leinster.

Ah, I thought he could play 10 as well.

So who starts at 10 then? Byrne? Someone else that I've completely forgotten about?

total former · 06-07-2015 8:02pm

bilston wrote: »

Ah, I thought he could play 10 as well.

So who starts at 10 then? Byrne? Someone else that I've completely forgotten about?

Cathal Marsh is next in line, then Byrne. Reid has a fair amount of experience at 10 from his youth but none at senior level, Crosbie likewise.

Then there's Nacewa...

molloyjh · 06-07-2015 8:12pm

total former wrote: »

Cathal Marsh is next in line, then Byrne. Reid has a fair amount of experience at 10 from his youth but none at senior level, Crosbie likewise.

Then there's Nacewa...

Last time Reid played 10 (AFAIK) was that B&I Cup semi-final a few years back against Munster and he was very poor. Definitely just a 12 and hopefully he gets a good run at it this season.

Zynks · 06-07-2015 8:40pm

Zuffer wrote: »

...
I don't see Australia modifying their call up criteria again before the world cup. However, I'd guess that Douglas could become eligible to be picked for the final squad by breaking his Leinster contract and stating his intent to return to the southern hemisphere after the world cup. Hence Easterby's comments about expecting Douglas back to Leinster.....

What could be the consequences for breaking his contract? It can't be as easy as walking out the door.

CatFromHue · 06-07-2015 9:01pm

I think Sonny Bill might have done something like that but he moved from League to Union.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/nrl/dogs-still-bitter-at-sonny-bill-williams-walkout/story-fnca0von-1226613606947

I'm not sure if you'd be able to do that in Union to Union though.

Sangre · 07-07-2015 9:56am

Zynks wrote: »

What could be the consequences for breaking his contract? It can't be as easy as walking out the door.

Depends on the terms of the contact but in reality not much, particulary if KD has relocated to Oz. Obviously there would be reputational consequences to KD for walking away mid-contract. (I am assuming World Rugby doesn't ban players who breach contract (or some simliar restriction).)

total former · 07-07-2015 10:28am

Sangre wrote: »

Depends on the terms of the contact but in reality not much, particulary if KD has relocated to Oz. Obviously there would be reputational consequences to KD for walking away mid-contract. (I am assuming World Rugby doesn't ban players who breach contract (or some simliar restriction).)

It would depend how hard Leinster want to push it. I'd imagine they could stop him playing in all IRB-sanctioned competitions very easily, i.e. no World Cup for Kane and no Super Rugby either.

He can't just walk off into the sunset.

.ak · 07-07-2015 10:42am

My suspicion on the KD thing is he wants to leave. It's very hard to keep a guy on the books if he's not happy. However, I think LR and AU came to an agreement to let him play for the Wallabies to keep him sweet and keep him in LR. Maybe a case of 'Go and try your hand at test footy again, if you're still not happy with that then we'll talk again'.

LostArt · 07-07-2015 10:54am

If it's true that his missus is pregnant then yeah he probably does want to go home and will force it through eventually.

07-07-2015 11:09am

I'm operating on the basis that Douglas is gone from Leinster. Leinster won't release him out of the goodness of their hearts but the media is saying the reds next season are looking for him to replace Horwell and I heard during the year that he wasn't settling in great.

Leinster will want some form of compensation to release him from his contract but I'd be confident that we won't see him in blue again. Easterby isn't going to say anything other than we expect him back until whatever deal may be achievable is done.

I think the fact that we possibly look overstocked with locks with the arrival of Kearney is an indicator that Leinster saw this coming but are letting it play out naturally.

Douglas could end up teaming up with MOC with the reds next season!

Sangre · 07-07-2015 11:20am

total former wrote: »

It would depend how hard Leinster want to push it. I'd imagine they could stop him playing in all IRB-sanctioned competitions very easily, i.e. no World Cup for Kane and no Super Rugby either.

He can't just walk off into the sunset.

What allows them to do this? Genuine question. My post ignored this possibility and just tried to talk about the terms of contract.

In an employee context, what an emlpoyer can legally do, and what it will actually do, are two very different things.

colster · 07-07-2015 11:20am

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm operating on the basis that Douglas is gone from Leinster. Leinster won't release him out of the goodness of their hearts but the media is saying the reds next season are looking for him to replace Horwell and I heard during the year that he wasn't settling in great.

Leinster will want some form of compensation to release him from his contract but I'd be confident that we won't see him in blue again. Easterby isn't going to say anything other than we expect him back until whatever deal may be achievable is done.

I think the fact that we possibly look overstocked with locks with the arrival of Kearney is an indicator that Leinster saw this coming but are letting it play out naturally.

Douglas could end up teaming up with MOC with the reds next season!

How are Leinster over-stocked with locks? If Douglas goes they only have 3 senior locks?

Correction: Actually would leave 4 senior locks in Toner, McCarthy, Denton and Kearney

Sangre · 07-07-2015 11:23am

colster wrote: »

How are Leinster over-stocked with locks? If Douglas goes they only have 3 senior locks?

Yes, with one a constant fixture on the Irish team and the other (McCarthy) slightly injury prone at the moment.

total former · 07-07-2015 11:25am

Sangre wrote: »

What allows them to do this? Genuine question. My post ignored this possibility and just tried to talk about the terms of contract.

In an employee context, what an emlpoyer can legally do, and what it will actually do, are two very different things.

Yeah, from that perspective he can sign an employment contract with the ARU and Leinster are never going to pursue him through the courts, but World Rugby regulations would prevent him from actually playing. He'll need Leinster's agreement to any move.

Edit: World Rugby Regulation 4.6.4

A Player’s Current Union shall be entitled to refuse to give its consent to the issue of a Clearance if the Player concerned has not fulfilled any of his obligations under the terms of his contract with his Current Union, Rugby Body or Club.

Swiwi. · 07-07-2015 11:32am

.ak wrote: »

My suspicion on the KD thing is he wants to leave. It's very hard to keep a guy on the books if he's not happy. However, I think LR and AU came to an agreement to let him play for the Wallabies to keep him sweet and keep him in LR. Maybe a case of 'Go and try your hand at test footy again, if you're still not happy with that then we'll talk again'.

Nonsense .ak. What message would that send to players in Australia weighing giving up their international ambitions for europes riches. The ARU is never going to agree to what you suggest.

sydthebeat · 07-07-2015 11:59am

i think its simply a case of cheika liking douglas enough to formally approach Leinster and say "look lads, me again, theres a competition happening close to you and im wondering of youd allow that lad that used to play for me to tog out for a few games. ive been chatting to him and he's mad keen" and leinster sez "hey mike, no probs... but look, we'd need some form of financial compo to do without him for the few weeks, what can you do for us"

Sangre · 07-07-2015 12:02pm

total former wrote: »

Edit: World Rugby Regulation 4.6.4

Interesting. So it seems to me that it would be the IRFU, rather than Leinster, that would need to block any move? Politically, it might be harder for the IRFU to be seen to block such moves.

.ak · 07-07-2015 12:15pm

Swiwi. wrote: »

Nonsense .ak. What message would that send to players in Australia weighing giving up their international ambitions for europes riches. The ARU is never going to agree to what you suggest.

Well the message has been well and truly sent already. Unless he leaves Leinster, and all indication is he won't, then they've already sent a message to the rest of the corps.... Basically you can go to France, Ireland, wherever and if Chieka likes you enough you'll probably play in a gold jersey at some point.

Podge_irl · 07-07-2015 12:16pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

i think its simply a case of cheika liking douglas enough to formally approach Leinster and say "look lads, me again, theres a competition happening close to you and im wondering of youd allow that lad that used to play for me to tog out for a few games. ive been chatting to him and he's mad keen" and leinster sez "hey mike, no probs... but look, we'd need some form of financial compo to do without him for the few weeks, what can you do for us"

That wouldn't make any sense. Leinster have no choice but to release him so the issue of financial compensation for that is non-existent. The problem is for the ARU if they select him while he's still contracted to Leinster - it completely undermines their position.

Podge_irl · 07-07-2015 12:17pm

.ak wrote: »

Well the message has been well and truly sent already. Unless he leaves Leinster, and all indication is he won't, then they've already sent a message to the rest of the corps.... Basically you can go to France, Ireland, wherever and if Chieka likes you enough you'll probably play in a gold jersey at some point.

I would consider him being brought into the Aussie squad as an indication that he might...

.ak · 07-07-2015 12:18pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

I would consider him being brought into the Aussie squad as an indication that he might...

I'm just going on what his team manager has officially said.

Swiwi. · 07-07-2015 12:24pm

Two things a bit ironic about all this is that after getting brickbats all season people seem keen for him to stay...and on the other hand Aussie fans are thinking he is the next messiah from what I've read on their websites.

irishbucsfan · 07-07-2015 12:28pm

I want him to stay for 2 reasons. One, I think he's better than he played for us last season and I think he showed that in flashes. Two, I think he'd start a majority of games for us next season with Toner away. Without Kane Douglas we'll have McCarthy/Kearney/Denton and that's not really a great standard of players.

awec · 07-07-2015 12:28pm

I always thought the guy was decidedly average, has he really any chance of getting into the Wallabies WC squad?

total former · 07-07-2015 12:29pm

Swiwi. wrote: »

Two things a bit ironic about all this is that after getting brickbats all season people seem keen for him to stay...and on the other hand Aussie fans are thinking he is the next messiah from what I've read on their websites.

I think most of us accepted that his performances for Leinster weren't reflective of his ability; that he was probably knackered after coming straight in after the SH season ended and then got injured.

I was (am) looking forward to seeing what he could do after a rest and a proper pre-season, but if gets picked for the 4N and World Cup, then comes back to Leinster straight into Pro12 and HC action, we'll be back where we started.

Podge_irl · 07-07-2015 12:29pm

.ak wrote: »

I'm just going on what his team manager has officially said.

Well what else do you really expect him to say?

I don't want him to leave as it's incredibly frustrating for him to go so close to the upcoming season when finding a replacement will be impossible. I don't think he's particularly great, but thought that he could possibly have shown more after a proper off-season, though this messes that up as well. To be honest, our need for him reflects more on our pretty ropey second row stocks than favourably on him.

molloyjh · 07-07-2015 12:46pm

.ak wrote: »

My suspicion on the KD thing is he wants to leave. It's very hard to keep a guy on the books if he's not happy. However, I think LR and AU came to an agreement to let him play for the Wallabies to keep him sweet and keep him in LR. Maybe a case of 'Go and try your hand at test footy again, if you're still not happy with that then we'll talk again'.

Leinster had to release him. They are not allowed to withhold him from international duty. Regulations state that the player must be available to train at least 5 full days prior to the start of the tournament. That's 12th July in this case. Factor in 2-3 days for flights and settling in time you're talking 9th-10th July leaving Dublin. They could have argued over the 3 or 4 days pre-season but if they want him to come back they were always far better to be decent about it. This isn't a case of Leinster agreeing anything with anyone. It's a case of Leinster having to just deal with it.

And ultimately I think it's the first step in Douglas heading home (assuming the rumours of the missus being pregnant and him not settling in great are true).

molloyjh · 07-07-2015 12:51pm

total former wrote: »

I think most of us accepted that his performances for Leinster weren't reflective of his ability; that he was probably knackered after coming straight in after the SH season ended and then got injured.

I was (am) looking forward to seeing what he could do after a rest and a proper pre-season, but if gets picked for the 4N and World Cup, then comes back to Leinster straight into Pro12 and HC action, we'll be back where we started.

This. He has gotten at least some sort of break as he finished up with Leinster at the start of March due to injury. So he'll have over 4 months with no game time before the RC starts. That's more than he had last season at least. It's still far from ideal though.

Tox56 · 07-07-2015 1:19pm

awec wrote: »

I always thought the guy was decidedly average, has he really any chance of getting into the Wallabies WC squad?

He was on the bench vs Wales in the last Australian game before he announced his move to Leinster so I'd think he'd have a very realistic chance of at least making the squad

sydthebeat · 07-07-2015 1:37pm

Tox56 wrote: »

He was on the bench vs Wales in the last Australian game before he announced his move to Leinster so I'd think he'd have a very realistic chance of at least making the squad

they have lots of names, but very little quality in the second row, he could easily make at least the match day 23.

Simmons and Skelton are probably ahead of him (and Dennis too all being told)
Horwill has had a terrible season and only had a couple of half decent performances to the end of the season, but hes nowhere near where he was in 2011. i dont rate Arnold that much, though hes a newbie and worth the chance, and i cant understand how Luke Jones isnt there after being probably being a starter in most peoples eyes.
They also have many players who can fill that lock/flanker role with Mumm, Fardy and Dennis.

Ben Mowen might have also being at a prospect of a call, though Douglas tahs connection is probably why hes being called in.

minitrue · 07-07-2015 1:59pm

Chieka would probably have a very good idea of what sort of deals he might be able to construct to keep Leinster happy, so with the state of the Aussie finances (afaiu) rather then buying him out of the contract I'd expect to see something like an Aussie SH arriving (anyone about with the years/caps to meet their criteria) or even a big bunch of their WC stand-bys arriving on short term contracts (paid by the ARU) for the WC period when we would be missing all our WC players. Or maybe just a Leinster Vs Australia game every N years during the AIs.

Put another way, what would the Honey Badger in the Pro12 be worth to Leinster (and IRFU/Pro12) during the WC in terms of bums on seats, viewing figures and ability to be more competitive in the Pro12 during the WC (at the expense of throwing the youngsters to the wolves)?

Bottom line for me, if he wants to go it's just about maximising what we get in return for his release and Chieka's Leinster knowledge probably means he can help find imaginative ways to make it happen rather then just haggling over the number on a cheque.

Podge_irl · 07-07-2015 2:04pm

minitrue wrote: »

Put another way, what would the Honey Badger in the Pro12 be worth to Leinster (and IRFU/Pro12) during the WC in terms of bums on seats, viewing figures and ability to be more competitive in the Pro12 during the WC (at the expense of throwing the youngsters to the wolves)?

Very little. Would he be a better winger? Yes. Would more than about 5% of the regular rugby watching crowd know or care who is? I doubt it to be honest.

07-07-2015 3:47pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Would more than about 5% of the regular rugby watching crowd know or care who is?

One Late Late appearance later and...

Synode · 07-07-2015 3:59pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Would more than about 5% of the regular rugby watching crowd know or care who is? I doubt it to be honest.

Surely yes. Any regular rugby watching person would know who he is

Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

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