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Stratosphere watch 2020-21

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,666 ✭✭✭✭sryanbruen


    bazlers wrote: »
    Hi Sryanbruen, the SPV flipped westerly yesterday although quiet weak. Do you know if there will be further warmings soon?

    Replying to this in the respective thread, yes there will be a succeeding warming that occurs later in the week and is reflected by a a drop back to reversal from this GFS forecast.

    The latest GFS does show an eventual recovery in the SPV which you would expect. Warming events cannot go on forever. This is normal with mid-winter major warming events.

    PMq82Me.png

    All eyes right now are on if tropospheric impacts will be felt now that the major SSW event was officially declared on 5th January. The likely route if we see any impacts is a mid-Atlantic ridge, North American trough and the main lobe of the vortex over Eurasia. This initially sounds all positive for a cold/snow lover but there are lots of complexities surrounding it. However, Iberian heights might prove an issue with depressions forming in the North Atlantic due to the vortex lobe over North America.

    Models are on a rollercoaster at the moment with these stratospheric developments. They have no clue. Some runs show the likely route I mentioned whilst others show something completely different or nothing at all. This is definitely more uncertain than what happened in 2018 but even that event was not fully certain all the time with some rollercoaster moments such as models (notably the ECM) showing the high latitude blocking too far south to allow a direct feed of the severe cold polar continental airmass or the period of "lift off" would backdate on runs.

    What is different this time to 2018 too is that we have high latitude blocking already or a weakened tropospheric polar vortex. Does the SSW prolong this blocking, does it intensify the blocking or does it give the atmosphere a bit of a shake to a different pattern?

    Lots to keep a close eye on for sure.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 700 ✭✭✭bazlers


    Thank you Sryanbruen, great insight there.
    Alot involved indeed. Hopfully all the pueces of the puzzle will line up for snowy cold outcome : )


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    Interesting reading here on the predictability of downward propagation of SSWs. It's more the strength of the SSW, and not its morphology (split or displacement) or preceding wave-number (1 or 2) that's the strongest determining factor of whether it will propagate downwards. It compares the 2018 and 2019 SSW events.

    https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/2019JD031919


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,963 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    A second minor SSW to take place in 3 or 4 days?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 700 ✭✭✭bazlers


    Polar vortex split today if anyones interested. Good, bad indifferent for us coldies???


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,238 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3


    Direct link to Syran's explanation of the origins of SSW events in the 'Winter 2020/2021' thread. As it deserves to be kept on record in a dedicated thread like this as it will only be lost forever in a fast moving thread like that:

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=115922932&postcount=2415

    New Moon



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,963 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    bazlers wrote: »
    Polar vortex split today if anyones interested. Good, bad indifferent for us coldies???



    I've read it could lead to a sturdier blocking high over Greenland, one that is more to the east of Greenland than West. A scandi high might also come into play later on. Some of the seasonal models do suggest a more robust blocking signal to the north west. Whether it actually translates to a colder outcome for us is anyones guess.


  • Registered Users Posts: 603 ✭✭✭Captain Snow


    Another SSW later on in the month.

    To Note we do have a ongoing warming....

    7T5AYS9.png


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,963 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    bazlers wrote: »
    Yes but he doesnt even know the out come of it

    I saw that. He said he would give his thoughts later. We could end up in a situation like 2013 yet.


  • Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭lostweekend3


    I saw that. He said he would give his thoughts later. We could end up in a situation like 2013 yet.

    He is what you call a total tease. A crowd pleaser that always thinks/says Europe is going to go into the freezer. Just my opinion but there you go.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 700 ✭✭✭bazlers


    I saw that. He said he would give his thoughts later. We could end up in a situation like 2013 yet.

    God only knows.. considering all the so called background signals, solar minimum, displacements,splits, -NAO and we still cant get a bit of aul snow in winter, its not like we are looking for it in July! Murphys law : )


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,963 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    bazlers wrote: »
    God only knows.. considering all the so called background signals, solar minimum, displacements,splits, -NAO and we still cant get a bit of aul snow in winter, its not like we are looking for it in July! Murphys law : )

    This is it, it's like we are being trolled. It could well end up being that this year we see less snow than in years with a fairly active PV.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭Artane2002


    This is it, it's like we are being trolled. It could well end up being that this year we see less snow than in a years with a fairly active PV.

    it's starting to feel like winter 2018-19 all over again (but with some wintry weather) which is why I threw in the towel a few days ago, obviously I'd like to be proven wrong. maybe the SPV brief split could help us down the line or even further minor warmings. knowing our luck though, we'll probably get what we've waited for at the very end of February or during March.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,394 ✭✭✭esposito


    Artane2002 wrote: »
    it's starting to feel like winter 2018-19 all over again (but with some wintry weather) which is why I threw in the towel a few days ago, obviously I'd like to be proven wrong. maybe the SPV brief split could help us down the line or even further minor warmings. knowing our luck though, we'll probably get what we've waited for at the very end of February or during March.

    We’ve had no luck in Ireland for snow since storm Emma in March 2018. End of.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,963 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,666 ✭✭✭✭sryanbruen



    Sryan, what are your thoughts about this?

    Off topic to stratosphere but as time goes on, I get the sense that this is one of those "teaser" kind of winters where everything looks like coming together to give a notable cold or snowy period but rarely or never quite does so akin to 2005-06 but has been amplified worse by the fact that there has been a lack of cold air fed into the country because of an unusually mild continent/seas or heavily modified by returning polar maritime air rather than a direct northerly as compared to that year or many other past examples.

    Good thing with weather is that we'll eventually get another severe winter again for those that like that sort of thing (including myself..), just need bags and bags of patience. It's the same thing with very warm summers dominated by easterly winds.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    Looks like this ship has sailed. Easterlies didn't make it down below 100 hPa in the end, despite all the tweets.

    540054.gif


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,963 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    So what you are saying is there will be no further impacts on the troposphere from the SSW on January 5th. What we have seen is the extent of it

    Will the tweeters acknowledge this. It seems some of them hopecast and hype things up to get more clicks.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    So what you are saying is there will be no further impacts on the troposphere from the SSW on January 5th. What we have seen is the extent of it

    Will the tweeters acknowledge this. It seems some of them hopecast and hype things up to get more clicks.

    We haven't seen any real effects on the troposphere at all anyway. It looks like the stratopsheric polar vortex will try to reestablish itself over the next week, but then tentative signs of a another warming over east Asia towards the end of the month.

    The second part, you've answered your own question. SSW clickcasting is big business.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,951 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    Ah many share the ups and downs to be fair and I think many are interesting, obviously some just post hype but just like anything else weather sites and accounts come and go over the years :D

    https://twitter.com/PvForecast/status/1351642631525298177?s=20


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 700 ✭✭✭bazlers


    I would take each model produced as just entertaining until they get a better understanding as to how this effects the normal Joe Soap going about his business on the ground.
    Judah Cohan who I would class as knowing his stuff infairness opening admitted to not knowing on some models what this actually will result in... (Id have more respect for him for saying that) only to entertain him.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,963 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    bazlers wrote: »
    I would take each model produced as just entertaining until they get a better understanding as to how this effects the normal Joe Soap going about his business on the ground.
    Judah Cohan who I would class as knowing his stuff infairness opening admitted to not knowing on some models what this actually will result in... (Id have more respect for him for saying that) only to entertain him.

    It's the others who pretend to know, then don't acknowledge being wrong, are the ones I have in mind. There is one particular individual who blocks people if they start questioning him too much.

    As regards the SSW having no really effects on the troposphere, i think it has just not in a way that has benefitted us to date


  • Registered Users Posts: 603 ✭✭✭Captain Snow


    A very Very Long read....alot of Tea and Biscuits time

    But explains today how the SSW is now going to effect are weather going forward.


    https://www.severe-weather.eu/global-weather/polar-vortex-weather-winter-february-united-states-europe-fa/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,963 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    So no deep cold for us based on that. I was hoping for a happy ending


  • Registered Users Posts: 603 ✭✭✭Captain Snow


    So no deep cold for us based on that. I was hoping for a happy ending

    The cold theme continues for us but no real 2010, 2018 etc for the time being.

    No storms etc.

    Alot of cold nights frosts etc.

    The position of the blocking is not predictable. We know its there.

    The ideal position is over Greenland or Scandinavia.

    We have to wait and see how it plays out.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    So no deep cold for us based on that. I was hoping for a happy ending

    Only because the cold is not 'available for transport' to our region
    That has more to do with the southern blocking than the scamstrat
    We spend lot of time talking about northern blocking but none about southern blocking which blocks out the cold


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,963 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Yes, the cold is there but is out of reach and more likely to stay out of reach based on that article.I would love to know if the persistent iberian heights are somehow a consequence of the strat event. It seems we have lows meandering around that end up propping the heights, then just when it looks like the high might go wandering it gets flattened. I will know for again if we don't see a proper split arising from a ssw it's akin to a dog chasing its own tail trying to get proper cold in here.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The answer to that question is nobody knows
    Science can't sometimes tell us tomorrow's weather, and always has trouble with 5 days plus so expecting scientists to do anything other than muse regarding strat warms etc is a pipe dream in my opinion
    We're in another winter without a widespread snow event again
    No point counting last w/end as it was temporary and affected maybe 30% or less of the country
    We are better than most winters so far in the sense that at times we are close enough to marginal that hilly spots and some flukey areas do see bits of snow


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,666 ✭✭✭✭sryanbruen


    First post here in a while. The major sudden stratospheric warming (SSW) happened in early January with an estimated central date of 5th January when the zonal mean zonal winds at 10hPa 60N went into reversal from westerly to easterly. This central date is to be confirmed in reanalysis towards the end of the season or next winter. It was primarily wave-1 driven and the stratospheric polar vortex (SPV) was displaced from its habitat. Through succeeding warming events in mid-January, wave-1 splitting did occur with further reversals but this did not evolve into a wave-2 major SSW event. All of these constitute as 1 major SSW event as for multiple major SSW events for historical consistency and various reasons, there must be a period of at least 20-30 consecutive days with positive zonal mean zonal winds i.e. westerly.

    mhmv34S.jpg

    This has been a downward propagating SSW (dSSW) event going by the below cross section with clear negative Northern Annular Mode (also known as the Arctic Oscillation) in the stratosphere in early January associated with the major SSW event.

    What may make it more difficult or confusing at first to tell when there was downward propagation exactly, using this data specifically, is how there was already blocking in the Arctic in the troposphere pre the SSW event and during it. However, the -AO has peaked during this cold spell giving away to extreme negativity of the index and extensive blocking over the Arctic. The second time-series I have given shows the propagation more clearly as it's the geopotential height anomaly for this year so far. There is a clear smooth propagation occurring from early January right at the top of the stratosphere (1-10hPa), in the lower stratosphere through mid-January (30-50hPa) and down to the troposphere (between 70-400hPa) coming up to late January.

    The GFS is forecasting a readily strengthening SPV through the rest of February which you would expect as the very weak stratospheric polar vortex cannot go on forever and typically with major SSW winters, there is a later than normal final stratospheric warming (FSW) when the zonal mean zonal winds reverse to easterly for summertime before reforming in late August with the mean date being April 15th.

    There is the likelihood for the -AO to significantly pay back a touch next week but there is no sign of going into positivity for the foreseeable future, at least on current model runs. Therefore, we should expect further blocking around the pole, just not as extensive or as extreme as we see now on synoptics at the moment.

    kPEoVk9.png

    NFUb7I3.png


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