Pay our Nurses/healthcare staff a decent wage

beolight · 02-04-2020 11:06am #1

Just seen the post below on the main thread and taught this should be highlighted as the main thread is so busy it will be buried in no time

“Quote: c montgomery
St Patrick's Day Parade 2021

Dedicated to health care workers who walk the parade to ovations from the public who they protected in 2020.

Make it happen everyone”

You know what there’s a reason why so many Nurses and Doctors emigrate!
Forget about the Parade how about we just pay them a decent wage? No tiered increases phased over 3 year nonsense tied to work productivity or changes in work practice just a straight forward wage increase like the ones the Politicians award themselves.
Every Minister of Finance has resisted their wage demands over the years and any concessions are hard fought and Minuscule
I know the sight of all the politicians in the Dail giving them a round of applause last week was greeted with gritted teeth by most Nurses/Doctors/ healthcare staff

circadian · 02-04-2020 11:14am

I've always believed that our healthcare staff and all emergency services staff deserve a healthy pay packet. They also deserve investment in the infrastructure they use instead of these things being gutted at the first opportunity.

The majority of the population rely on the health service, Gardai and fire service. If I need to call ont he help of these services do I want someone that is exhausted, underpaid and undervalued?

Jurgen Klopp · 02-04-2020 11:16am

Well you can forget about it now once we get past this and the bill needs paying

facehugger99 · 02-04-2020 11:20am

The various unions, including those of nurses and healthcare staff need to brought to heel before any additional money is spent on salaries.

The restrictive and unproductive working practices that are rife with the HSE are the reason Irish taxpayers have one of the worst but most expensive healthcare systems in the developed world.

Despite the populist bolloxolgy in the OP, the last thing we should be doing is pumping more money (which we won't have anyway) into it without serious reform.

Rob A. Bank · 02-04-2020 11:58am

facehugger99 wrote: »

The various unions, including those of nurses and healthcare staff need to brought to heel before any additional money is spent on salaries.

The restrictive and unproductive working practices that are rife with the HSE are the reason Irish taxpayers have one of the worst but most expensive healthcare systems in the developed world.

Despite the populist bolloxolgy in the OP, the last thing we should be doing is pumping more money (which we won't have anyway) into it without serious reform.

Complete right wing neoliberal nonsense.

And full of statistics you pulled out of your ass. Let's put the nurses and healthcare workers on zero hours contracts in order to keep you happy ?

The worst and most expensive healthcare system in the world is in the USA. And it will do very badly with the 'Covid-19 stress test' it is being subjected to at the moment. Privatization has failed at it's first real test.

ITman88 · 02-04-2020 12:02pm

Jurgen Klopp wrote: »

Well you can forget about it now once we get past this and the bill needs paying

OP is gona need magic beans or Monopoly money to implement the pay rise!

Realistically the nurses do a fantastic job, and they are under pressure now, but a pay cut is much more likely due to the deficit.

Rob A. Bank · 02-04-2020 12:02pm

noodler · 02-04-2020 12:03pm

Our nurses are very well paid.

They had a separate pay deal only last year on top of the general PS pay deal and increments.

Rob A. Bank · 02-04-2020 12:03pm

ITman88 · 02-04-2020 12:04pm

noodler wrote: »

Our nurses are very well paid.

They had a separate pay deal only last year on top of the general PS pay deal and increments.

How does it compare to the UK or European countries?

landofthetree · 02-04-2020 12:04pm

circadian wrote: »

I've always believed that our healthcare staff and all emergency services staff deserve a healthy pay packet. They also deserve investment in the infrastructure they use instead of these things being gutted at the first opportunity.

The majority of the population rely on the health service, Gardai and fire service. If I need to call ont he help of these services do I want someone that is exhausted, underpaid and undervalued?

Fair enough.

But you are going to have to tell us where the money is going to come from. Tell us what extra taxes you will introduce. (Water tax isn't an option.)

uptherebels · 02-04-2020 12:06pm

Rob A. Bank wrote: »

Complete right wing neoliberal nonsense.

And full of statistics you pulled out of your ass. Let's put the nurses healthcare workers on zero hours contracts in order to keep you happy ?

The worst and most expensive healthcare system in the world is in the USA. And it will do very badly with the 'Covid-19 stress test' it is being subjected to at the moment. Privatization has failed at it's first real test.

Did you even read the post that you quoted?

Shefwedfan · 02-04-2020 12:06pm

People out clapping today

Few weeks, it will be back to the same old story, hospital full of drunk Irish people abusing the staff and thinking it acceptable

Complaining if they ask for pay rise and quoting they get paid xyz so they deserve nothing, plenty of threads on here if you look for them

It’s all about the moment, at the moment people need nurses etc so you have this fake clapping sh*t, few weeks they still need nurses but not as important so they threat them like dogs!!!!

Ace2007 · 02-04-2020 12:07pm

beolight wrote: »

You know what there’s a reason why so many Nurses and Doctors emigrate!
Forget about the Parade how about we just pay them a decent wage? No tiered increases phased over 3 year nonsense tied to work productivity or changes in work practice just a straight forward wage increase like the ones the Politicians award themselves.
Every Minister of Finance has resisted their wage demands over the years and any concessions are hard fought and Minuscule
I know the sight of all the politicians in the Dail giving them a round of applause last week was greeted with gritted teeth by most Nurses/Doctors/ healthcare staff

It's not because the Minister of Finance's don't want to give it to them, it's because of the way the public sector pay is set up. If you give the healthcare workers say 15% salary increase - you will have every other PS work, train driver, bus driver etc all going on strike because they want more money - and no government can afford to have the country on it's knees with no transport - and no one able to get to work.

It's not right, but the Unions of these other sectors are as much to blame as the government.

You'll have teachers on strike, creche on strike etc, it's a vicious circle.

In addition, the government i would imagine would be happy to pay every healthcare worker an extra 10k per year, if they ceased accrual in their DB Pension Scheme. That is the crux of it - Private sector workers get paid more now, will no guarantee in the future, PS workers get paid less, with a guaranteed DB pension at retirement.

storker · 02-04-2020 12:18pm

Ace2007 wrote: »

It's not because the Minister of Finance's don't want to give it to them, it's because of the way the public sector pay is set up. If you give the healthcare workers say 15% salary increase - you will have every other PS work, train driver, bus driver etc all going on strike because they want more money - and no government can afford to have the country on it's knees with no transport - and no one able to get to work.

It's not right, but the Unions of these other sectors are as much to blame as the government.

You'll have teachers on strike, creche on strike etc, it's a vicious circle.

My wife is a nurse so I'm all for them getting a rise but I see the point about reform too and so would she. There are lots of antiquated work practices being clung to fo dear life and they have a recruitment process that appears to sacrifice the best result in the name of demonstrating "fairness" (and before someone jumps on that one I'm not talking about diversity). A bit like government procurement, which seems to be more about demonstrating that you followed the process than about actually getting quality or value for money.

Beasty · 02-04-2020 12:23pm

Moved from the Coronavirus forum

noodler · 02-04-2020 12:24pm

ITman88 wrote: »

How does it compare to the UK or European countries?

Very well.

ixoy · 02-04-2020 12:26pm

Anyone I've spoken to who works on the front line of the HSE says the whole administration side is a complete shambles and a very expensive one at that. When the health boards got joined up, the same roles still existed leading to too many cooks. Could the focus not begin here? You'd have some fight with the unions though if you were looking to force roles to become redundant because they're really not needed.

Padraig Mor · 02-04-2020 12:28pm

noodler wrote: »

Our nurses are very well paid.

They had a separate pay deal only last year on top of the general PS pay deal and increments.

ITman88 wrote: »

How does it compare to the UK or European countries?

Exactly. Most of Ireland's health care workers are well paid by international standards. Nurses in Ireland in particular are among the very best paid in the world, not that you'd know it from the continual beal bocht. Off the top of my head, the only group which may not be paid especially well compared to other western countries is doctors.

CalamariFritti · 02-04-2020 12:31pm

I don't think the health system is in the mess that it's in because of wages. The common theme appears to be massive admin overheads and paying over the odds for everything.

Also while I think they should be paid a decent wage and it's obviously an emotional topic right now I don't think they actually get paid poorly. They make it out like they have to flee the country 'cos they're kept on the breadline here but the reality is they get more out of college than many others and certainly more than many of their European peers.

Padraig Mor · 02-04-2020 12:34pm

CalamariFritti wrote: »

I don't think the health system is in the mess that it's in because of wages. The common theme appears to be massive admin overheads and paying over the odds for everything..

About 70/75% of Ireland's spending on health goes on wages - can't remember the exact figure.

CalamariFritti · 02-04-2020 12:38pm

Padraig Mor wrote: »

About 70/75% of Ireland's spending on health goes on wages - can't remember the exact figure.

Ye what I meant was nurse's wages, sorry.
With a big admin overhead that is to be expected. I'd say a lot of these admin roles aren't on small money either.

Edgware · 02-04-2020 12:38pm

ITman88 wrote: »

OP is gona need magic beans or Monopoly money to implement the pay rise!

Realistically the nurses do a fantastic job, and they are under pressure now, but a pay cut is much more likely due to the deficit.

Do we need nurses on maximum pay scales taking blood samples?
This crisis has shown the need for widescale reform. The nurses in A and E dealing with Friday night dirtbirds deserve double what they get but lets not lump all in together. Like every section of Civil and Public service there is scope for change

Ace2007 · 02-04-2020 12:47pm

CalamariFritti wrote: »

I don't think the health system is in the mess that it's in because of wages. The common theme appears to be massive admin overheads and paying over the odds for everything.

Also while I think they should be paid a decent wage and it's obviously an emotional topic right now I don't think they actually get paid poorly. They make it out like they have to flee the country 'cos they're kept on the breadline here but the reality is they get more out of college than many others and certainly more than many of their European peers.

Good luck getting the unions to agree to redundancies in the PS.

Two private companies merge - everyone knows there will be people let go. Two sectors of PS merge - ah well we'll find work is the attitude.

na1 · 02-04-2020 1:05pm

circadian wrote: »

I've always believed that our healthcare staff and all emergency services staff deserve a healthy pay packet. They also deserve investment in the infrastructure they use instead of these things being gutted at the first opportunity.

The majority of the population rely on the health service, Gardai and fire service. If I need to call ont he help of these services do I want someone that is exhausted, underpaid and undervalued?

I always thought that HSE budget is quite high in our country percentage-wise to the budget?
Its the way the money are distributed by HSE.

na1 · 02-04-2020 1:15pm

ixoy wrote: »

Anyone I've spoken to who works on the front line of the HSE says the whole administration side is a complete shambles and a very expensive one at that. When the health boards got joined up, the same roles still existed leading to too many cooks. Could the focus not begin here? You'd have some fight with the unions though if you were looking to force roles to become redundant because they're really not needed.

I heard the story (from the staff) that the head of one of the private hospital has managed to occupy two full time jobs: getting paid 2 salaries, one from HSE and another one from the hospital

storker · 02-04-2020 8:08pm

na1 wrote: »

I heard the story (from the staff) that the head of one of the private hospital has managed to occupy two full time jobs: getting paid 2 salaries, one from HSE and another one from the hospital

There is a magical money tree. You just need the key to the garden.

mikhail · 02-04-2020 8:15pm

Ace2007 wrote: »

Good luck getting the unions to agree to redundancies in the PS.

Two private companies merge - everyone knows there will be people let go. Two sectors of PS merge - ah well we'll find work is the attitude.

They merged the health boards years ago. They could have retired off the whole surplus by now if there was a proper plan in place to do it.

gary550 · 02-04-2020 8:24pm

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/0209/1028490-nurses-pay/

Improve working conditions & staffing shortage - yes

But in my opinion, based on actual figures, nurses are not underpaid.

Edgware · 02-04-2020 10:36pm

storker wrote: »

There is a magical money tree. You just need the key to the garden.

I think it is called the trough, now available at Seanad Eireann

CrabRevolution · 02-04-2020 10:48pm

Nurses' pay is like the state pension. Ask anyone on the street if it should be raised, and they'll mostly say yes.

Then ask them what Nurses currently earn or what the weekly pension is, and you'll get very very few right answers from people who don't receive it themselves.

People always think nurses/pensioners/soldiers etc. are not getting paid enough, because the only people who talk about nurses/pensioners/soldiers pay are the people who receive that pay, and they've a big interest in creating the (right or wrong) impression that they are underpaid.

And I say this as a PS worker who'd benefit from any Nurses' pay increase because it would have a domino effect across the entire public sector with everyone demanding pay rises!

storker · 02-04-2020 11:50pm

Edgware wrote: »

I think it is called the trough, now available at Seanad Eireann

If you want to call out troughs, there are much deeper ones than that.

Geuze · 03-04-2020 1:00am

https://igees.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/26.-Nursing-and-Midwifery-Expenditure.pdf

2018 Govt spending review of Nurses, prepared by IGEES

Finding 16:

16. International evidence suggest that nursing and midwifery remuneration in the Irish
Public Health system is high comparatively.

Compared to a new entrant nurse in the English NHS, a new entrant nurse in Ireland earns
21% more in basic pay based on current exchange rates. While allowances and
promotional opportunities differ across jurisdictions, a nurse at the top of the HSE staff
nurse scale would earn 39% more than a nurse at the top of the NHS England Band 5 scale.

More broadly, OECD nursing remuneration data show that, in purchasing power parity
terms, Irish nursing pay (including allowances and premium payments) between 2007 and
2017 was consistently on a par with Australia and higher than New Zealand, Canada and
the UK.

Geuze · 03-04-2020 1:00am

ITman88 wrote: »

How does it compare to the UK or European countries?

Nearly 40% above English rates.

Geuze · 03-04-2020 1:02am

beolight wrote: »

J

You know what there’s a reason why so many Nurses and Doctors emigrate!
Forget about the Parade how about we just pay them a decent wage? No tiered increases phased over 3 year nonsense tied to work productivity or changes in work practice just a straight forward wage increase like the ones the Politicians award themselves.

AGAIN, AGAIN, for the hundreth time, TDs do not, and can not do this.

TDs have no control over their own pay.

This has been explained over and over.

Geuze · 03-04-2020 1:06am

beolight wrote: »

J

work practice just a straight forward wage increase like the ones the Politicians award themselves.

I have sent you a PM to make sure you are aware that this does not happen.

It can't happen.

Geuze · 03-04-2020 1:07am

circadian wrote: »

The majority of the population rely on the health service, Gardai and fire service. If I need to call ont he help of these services do I want someone that is exhausted, underpaid and undervalued?

They are not underpaid.

KilOit · 03-04-2020 9:22am

Pay is good with plenty of training provided if they wish to advance to cnm or cns levels which pay is increased substantially.
I'd agree that the conditions could be improved, recruit more and reduce their hours to 37

storker · 03-04-2020 9:32am

gary550 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/0209/1028490-nurses-pay/

Improve working conditions & staffing shortage - yes

But in my opinion, based on actual figures, nurses are not underpaid.

Based on the fact that nurses caring for "non COVID-suspect" patients are not allowed to wear masks even though their work requires them to constantly breach the very guidelines that are being drummed into everyone else, and given that the possibility of asymptomatic transmission makes everyone COVID-suspect, I'd say they're not paid enough.

(I'd settle for them getting masks and goggles though.)

Dakota Dan · 03-04-2020 9:33am

beolight wrote: »

Just seen the post below on the main thread and taught this should be highlighted as the main thread is so busy it will be buried in no time

“Quote: c montgomery
St Patrick's Day Parade 2021

Dedicated to health care workers who walk the parade to ovations from the public who they protected in 2020.

Make it happen everyone”

You know what there’s a reason why so many Nurses and Doctors emigrate!
Forget about the Parade how about we just pay them a decent wage? No tiered increases phased over 3 year nonsense tied to work productivity or changes in work practice just a straight forward wage increase like the ones the Politicians award themselves.
Every Minister of Finance has resisted their wage demands over the years and any concessions are hard fought and Minuscule
I know the sight of all the politicians in the Dail giving them a round of applause last week was greeted with gritted teeth by most Nurses/Doctors/ healthcare staff

After this they’ll be lucky if they can maintain their current wages.

storker · 03-04-2020 9:35am

Dakota Dan wrote: »

After this they’ll be lucky if they can maintain their current wages.

After this if anyone tries to cut the nurse's wages they'll have a ****storm on their hands.

Edgware · 03-04-2020 10:14am

Geuze wrote: »

Nearly 40% above English rates.

Ask any of the Irish nurses and other medics working in the U.K. hospitals. Completely different work practices and great opportunities for further advancement but they work hard for everything they get

03-04-2020 4:59pm

storker wrote: »

After this if anyone tries to cut the nurse's wages they'll have a ****storm on their hands.

That's OK then, we cut the rest of the public sector even harder to shield the nurses from cuts.

I'm sure the rest of the public sector won't breathe a whimper of objection.

iebamm2580 · 04-04-2020 1:12pm

Could be wrong but i was of the understanding that nurses were there to care for the sick, thats what you sign up for so if cuts have to be made after this nurses like everybody else should be included.

storker · 06-04-2020 8:41pm

salonfire wrote: »

That's OK then, we cut the rest of the public sector even harder to shield the nurses from cuts.

I'm sure the rest of the public sector won't breathe a whimper of objection.

Anyone in the public sector is welcome to retrain as a nurse if they want.

06-04-2020 8:45pm

facehugger99 wrote: »

The various unions, including those of nurses and healthcare staff need to brought to heel before any additional money is spent on salaries.

The restrictive and unproductive working practices that are rife with the HSE are the reason Irish taxpayers have one of the worst but most expensive healthcare systems in the developed world.

Despite the populist bolloxolgy in the OP, the last thing we should be doing is pumping more money (which we won't have anyway) into it without serious reform.

Maybe we have one of the most expensive public sectors because we also have one of the most expensive private sectors in the world?

(Fyi, I believe that actually the private sector salaries are higher on the global list than public sector)

06-04-2020 8:52pm

Geuze wrote: »

They are not underpaid.

Take allowances for working Christmas, nights, holidays and overtime out of the equation.

Now include all the business owners that for tax reasons only pay themselves a minimum wage and don't include the millions in profits but are very very wealthy people.

Now divide that more accurate average private salary by the average working week in the private sector and multiple back to 40 hours (I'm taking about people only working 20, 25 hour weeks and part time staff btw) to get the actual full-time average salary.

Now we are getting closer to a fair comparison between the two. However you are still comparing Jobs being worked by people that didn't finish school to people with third level educations and ignoring the importance / difficulty if the careers so really, can we ever compare fairly? Shouldn't a public sector doctor working 70 hours get paid a lot more than someone with no formal education working 25 hours in a shop?

I mean no disrespect to those careers by the way but a need to be realistic

Mad_maxx · 06-04-2020 9:30pm

beolight wrote: »

Just seen the post below on the main thread and taught this should be highlighted as the main thread is so busy it will be buried in no time

“Quote: c montgomery
St Patrick's Day Parade 2021

Dedicated to health care workers who walk the parade to ovations from the public who they protected in 2020.

Make it happen everyone”

You know what there’s a reason why so many Nurses and Doctors emigrate!
Forget about the Parade how about we just pay them a decent wage? No tiered increases phased over 3 year nonsense tied to work productivity or changes in work practice just a straight forward wage increase like the ones the Politicians award themselves.
Every Minister of Finance has resisted their wage demands over the years and any concessions are hard fought and Minuscule
I know the sight of all the politicians in the Dail giving them a round of applause last week was greeted with gritted teeth by most Nurses/Doctors/ healthcare staff

They are already well paid

Mad_maxx · 06-04-2020 9:31pm

ITman88 wrote: »

How does it compare to the UK or European countries?

Significantly higher

gary550 · 06-04-2020 10:06pm

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Take allowances for working Christmas, nights, holidays and overtime out of the equation.

Now include all the business owners that for tax reasons only pay themselves a minimum wage and don't include the millions in profits but are very very wealthy people.

Now divide that more accurate average private salary by the average working week in the private sector and multiple back to 40 hours (I'm taking about people only working 20, 25 hour weeks and part time staff btw) to get the actual full-time average salary.

Now we are getting closer to a fair comparison between the two. However you are still comparing Jobs being worked by people that didn't finish school to people with third level educations and ignoring the importance / difficulty if the careers so really, can we ever compare fairly? Shouldn't a public sector doctor working 70 hours get paid a lot more than someone with no formal education working 25 hours in a shop?

I mean no disrespect to those careers by the way but a need to be realistic

Apples and oranges

I really don't see your point

06-04-2020 10:17pm

gary550 wrote: »

Apples and oranges

I really don't see your point

My point was pretty simple, comparing a nurse with a degree that's working 50+ hours and holidays to someone who left school at 16 and works 25 hours a week in a shop isn't a fair comparison of 'average' wages so maybe, just maybe the begrudgers might do some actual research before commenting

Pay our Nurses/healthcare staff a decent wage

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