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Bidding on a house - ask for proof of another bid?

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13

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    #62
    mickdw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,285 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    If you need to hear it again......
    10k 20k 30k is a lot of cash in the sellers pocket.
    If a landlord has a few properties and one agent continually gets towards top end of expected price while other gets an average price, which agency do you think is going to get future business.
    I've been involved in a couple of bidding situations personally but close to hundreds of deals professionally - survey side of purchases. You would be surprised how many bidding wars suddenly stop when bid is placed til close of business only.
    You would also be surprised how often the agents come back after the supposed buyer drops out late on and happily take the previous offer.


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    #63
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    As my late great grandfather used to say..."Never trust an auctioneer".


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    #64
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,021 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    worded wrote: »
    Happens in Canada as someone said earlier.
    All offers are a cheque sealed in an envelope by each party interested.
    On a given day all envelopes are opened and highest cheque wins.
    It’s simple and legally binding and not open to an auction and counter bidding

    But oh no that’s too simple for us Irish folk :-)

    I have bid on a house in that way in Ireland before. Sellers can do it if they like.


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    #65
    machiavellianme
    Registered Users Posts: 12,441 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    Sandra Plain Hat wrote: »
    300k house
    1% commission


    Offer of 300k - fee = 3000
    Offer of 310k - fee = 3100

    Tell me again how it's worthwhile for an agent to drag out sales with fake bids

    Based on your example, they get 100 extra for not a whole pile of work. Maybe estate agents are coining it so much that 100 is insignificant but for the level of work required, it really isn't. I somehow doubt they're flat out for 9 hours trying to generate that extra 10k.

    Cheaper, more transparent solution for buyers and sellers would be an eBay-like platform. See how EAs like that.


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    #66
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,021 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    machiavellianme wrote: »
    Based on your example, they get 100 extra for not a whole pile of work. Maybe estate agents are coining it so much that 100 is insignificant but for the level of work required, it really isn't. I somehow doubt they're flat out for 9 hours trying to generate that extra 10k.

    Cheaper, more transparent solution for buyers and sellers would be an eBay-like platform. See how EAs like that.

    The business gets an extra 100, the agent themselves might get an extra tenner, and they're risking their career for it.


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    #67
    machiavellianme
    Registered Users Posts: 12,441 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    Interested Observer wrote: »
    The business gets an extra 100, the agent themselves might get an extra tenner, and they're risking their career for it.

    Risking their career? Sounds a bit melodramatic. If there was so much auditing going on, you'd think there'd be publications to indicate who has been investigated and the outcome? Or at the very least, a list of those found to have transgressions. For example, medical practitioners, tax defaulters or restaurants found to have wrongdoings are named and shamed in newspapers etc.


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    #68
    q85dw7osi4lebg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,502 ✭✭✭q85dw7osi4lebg


    machiavellianme wrote: »
    Based on your example, they get 100 extra for not a whole pile of work. Maybe estate agents are coining it so much that 100 is insignificant but for the level of work required, it really isn't. I somehow doubt they're flat out for 9 hours trying to generate that extra 10k.

    Cheaper, more transparent solution for buyers and sellers would be an eBay-like platform. See how EAs like that.

    You must have a lot of experience as an agent do know that that's not a whole pile of work.


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    #69
    q85dw7osi4lebg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,502 ✭✭✭q85dw7osi4lebg


    machiavellianme wrote: »
    Risking their career? Sounds a bit melodramatic. If there was so much auditing going on, you'd think there'd be publications to indicate who has been investigated and the outcome? Or at the very least, a list of those found to have transgressions. For example, medical practitioners, tax defaulters or restaurants found to have wrongdoings are named and shamed in newspapers etc.

    Agents are audited every year. The PSRA homepage literally publishes those that lose licences / are being investigated etc. You have no idea what you are talking about.


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    #70
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,554 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    machiavellianme wrote: »
    Based on your example, they get 100 extra for not a whole pile of work. Maybe estate agents are coining it so much that 100 is insignificant but for the level of work required, it really isn't. I somehow doubt they're flat out for 9 hours trying to generate that extra 10k.

    Cheaper, more transparent solution for buyers and sellers would be an eBay-like platform. See how EAs like that.

    The company gets €100 extra.
    That includes VAT.
    Then overheads and commission.

    You think an EA will risk losing a sale for a couple of euro.


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    #71
    mickdw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,285 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    The innocence of the people on this thread is laughable really.
    Not alone were they introducing false bids if they thought it beneficial,
    It was also not unknown for a mortgage broker to be closely tied to auctioneer, often in same building.
    Auctioneer would be told a clients budget based in mortgage info from broker then property would be bid up to that figure.
    It's their job to get the best price.
    If I was selling a property and I had one interested party, I'd hope that the auctioneer would use all his tricks and get the most money out of that client.

    Don't even get me started on the car auctions. It's an education to sit up the back of those and see what goes on.
    Newbies sitting down the front bidding for all they are worth and the auctioneer taking bids off the wall at the back.
    Again, it's expected. It's his job and it's the buyers business whether it be car or house to be aware and counter these actions or else end up paying too much.


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    #72
    JJJackal
    Registered Users Posts: 1,016 ✭✭✭JJJackal


    kceire wrote: »
    The company gets €100 extra.
    That includes VAT.
    Then overheads and commission.

    You think an EA will risk losing a sale for a couple of euro.

    I believe an auctioneer would - from personal experience

    I called an auctioneer last week to view a property on sale for x. He said he had an offer of x. I said, thats a great price, no point in me seeing it as I am not willing to offer x.

    Suddenly there was no offer submitted yet ("waiting for the email") - so the auctioneer wanted me to see the property. I declined - going to be too messy


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    #73
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,127 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    mickdw wrote: »
    The innocence of the people on this thread is laughable really.
    Not alone were they introducing false bids if they thought it beneficial,
    It was also not unknown for a mortgage broker to be closely tied to auctioneer, often in same building.
    Auctioneer would be told a clients budget based in mortgage info from broker then property would be bid up to that figure.
    .

    No doubt you have proof of this?


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    #74
    cudsy1
    Registered Users Posts: 152 ✭✭cudsy1


    hi all,

    currently bidding against one other bidder. I counter raised via email, and the EA rang me back the next day saying bid has been raised by my opponent to the amount that I had previously raised to. I told the EA that I thought the amount he said it has been raised to was what I had previously raised it to but he assured me that I hadn't. A look at my most recent email to him confirms that yes in fact the amount he told me on the phone just now was the new counter raise by the other bidder. Perhaps a simple error by EA, perhaps not.

    What to do/say tomorrow when I am to call him back?


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    #75
    q85dw7osi4lebg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,502 ✭✭✭q85dw7osi4lebg


    Error on EA's part. Forward the email to them and then ring them. They will have to revert to the other party and explain the error.


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    #76
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,017 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    The easiest way through this maze of second guessing is to assume that everything the EA says is either an outright lie or a half truth.

    The most likely motivation of an EA turning a blind eye to fake bids (e.g. from family/friends of the vendor) is to get the buyer to the price that the seller demands. It's not about getting a higher commission, it's about getting the sale through.

    The way it works is this (for example):

    - EA pitches for the sale of a property, indicating a possible price. Incentive here is not to under-sell, as the vendors will tend to go with the agent that offers the prospect of the highest price.
    - EA puts the property on the market, doesn't get much interest, needs a way to backpedal.
    - Vendor won't budge on price, despite reasonable protestations from the EA, because they're anchored to their original expectation.
    - Other bids come in, of dubious veracity. EA turns a blind eye. They have nothing to lose since the vendor won't at this stage budge on price.
    - Either the original bidder feels under pressure to up the bid and close (happy days), or they pull out, in which case the EA will restart the process, hopefully talking the vendor down to a lower price.

    I am convinced that this happens. How much? I don't know. Does it matter? Not necessarily. Even if the other bids are genuine, they may be from lunatics who are bidding way over what the property is really worth, and they may pull out. How is that different from a fake bid?

    The central problem is the belief that a fair bidding process will result in value for money. It won't. Bid what you think the property is worth to you, and move on if you can't get it for that price. Don't fixate on one property. Don't get emotionally attached. Under no circumstances take the kids to see it until you have closed the sale.

    And again, assume that every single word that comes out of an EAs mouth is a lie.


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    #77
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,098 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    How would an audit catch them with fake bids exactly?
    Paper trail for 500k bid, EA tells people it's at 550k...audit will be unaware unless they ring up and pretend to be a buyer.


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    #78
    mickdw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,285 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    Dav010 wrote: »
    No doubt you have proof of this?

    Old thread but yes there was a prime time or similar expose on just such behaviour.


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    #79
    Ghetofarmulous
    Registered Users Posts: 175 ✭✭Ghetofarmulous


    mickdw wrote: »
    Old thread but yes there was a prime time or similar expose on just such behaviour.

    Please link


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    #80
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,017 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Ghetofarmulous wrote: »
    Please link
    Google primetime ireland phantom bid, it's the first result :rolleyes:

    https://www.rte.ie/news/primetime/2019/0308/1035139-prime-time-fake-bids-bloody-sunday-charges-beef-stakes/


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    #81
    Mic 1972
    Registered Users Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    I dropped my offer for a house a few years ago after bidding against "another potential" buyer, if that was a fake bid than the agency lost the deal, so not sure why would they do that


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    #82
    cudsy1
    Registered Users Posts: 152 ✭✭cudsy1


    Thanks for replies.

    Another kinda unrelated question: has anyone ever heard of an EA pitting two competitors bidding on same property against each other by a phone based auction between the two bidders? EA gets one raise, then goes on second line to other bidder for counter raise, and so on...


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    #83
    sandeep21
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭sandeep21


    Happened to me recently with Sherry FitzGerald, They ask me to use their MySherryFitz, for bidding and and I involved in bidding for a property.
    As using their application, they are 100% liable to practice genuinely, but when I asked about other bidders are genuine, they didnt have answer, even they do not verify the bidders have viewed the property and have AIP. Manager said any user can register and involve in bidding process, which is not transparent. With my bidding price, they haven't answered or finalized my price with the owner, but when I started questioning them, they approved another bidder price and went to sale agreed within 2 days.
    And again I asked, How come owner agreed the price, when I was in bidding more than other bidder, they didn't had an answer and the manager was trying to convince me not to make any complaints, as it will downgrade their reputation. It was with Sheery Fitz Sundrive. I have proof and can explain that they are mis-practising.


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    #84
    C3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 3,744 ✭✭✭C3PO


    sandeep21 wrote: »
    Happened to me recently with Sherry FitzGerald, They ask me to use their MySherryFitz, for bidding and and I involved in bidding for a property.
    As using their application, they are 100% liable to practice genuinely, but when I asked about other bidders are genuine, they didnt have answer, even they do not verify the bidders have viewed the property and have AIP. Manager said any user can register and involve in bidding process, which is not transparent. With my bidding price, they haven't answered or finalized my price with the owner, but when I started questioning them, they approved another bidder price and went to sale agreed within 2 days.
    And again I asked, How come owner agreed the price, when I was in bidding more than other bidder, they didn't had an answer and the manager was trying to convince me not to make any complaints, as it will downgrade their reputation. It was with Sheery Fitz Sundrive. I have proof and can explain that they are mis-practising.

    Can’t make head nor tail of this post!


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    #85
    Gone Drinking
    Registered Users Posts: 2,809 ✭✭✭Gone Drinking


    I only read a few posts here but there needs to be transparency. Like Ebay, you can see the usernames of those bidding against you. Not their personal information but a traceable account for someone who's registered via the approved methods to bid.

    It should be the same for buying a house, anyone interested should have to register their details, upon which they get a unique identifier (random number/letters, no personal information). This would allow bids to be tracked by all concerned parties.

    I don't see why this would be so difficult and it would give people more confidence in the process.

    For those saying "show me the proof of fake bids", the answer is simply "show me the proof there's no fake bids".


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    #86
    sandeep21
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭sandeep21


    C3PO wrote: »
    Can’t make head nor tail of this post!

    I just explained my experience, that the bidding process from agents are not transparent despite they tend to use technology and **** GDPR regulations when aksing about bidder are not fake, such that these agents have reasons. They just robbing.


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    #87
    riclad
    Registered Users Posts: 8,184 ✭✭✭riclad


    GDPR requires all companys that have data on users to
    allow them to download the data anytime they want.
    if you bought a house from joe bloggs agency ,
    would a gdpr request give you data on the bidding process .
    would it show how many bids there were on a house,
    how many people were bidding against you before you bought the house.
    I think they would have to blank out the names of other bidders ,
    under the data protection act.
    If someone paid say 700k for a house they might want to know if they were
    bidding against a phantom bidder .


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    #88
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,127 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    riclad wrote: »
    GDPR requires all companys that have data on users to
    allow them to download the data anytime they want.
    if you bought a house from joe bloggs agency ,
    would a gdpr request give you data on the bidding process .
    would it show how many bids there were on a house,
    how many people were bidding against you before you bought the house.
    I think they would have to blank out the names of other bidders ,
    under the data protection act.
    If someone paid say 700k for a house they might want to know if they were
    bidding against a phantom bidder .

    This is hard to follow, are you saying that GDPR regs mean bidders are entitled to info about bidding process?

    A person who buys a €700k house might like to know if there was a phantom bidder, that does not mean they have a right to know who that bidder is or whether they had the means to support their bid.

    Just an aside, on the accom forum at the moment, there is a poster who is considering pulling out of the buy after going sale agreed, because he/she has the “jitters”. It is conceivable that the underbidders would then assume that the EA was making up bids and the poster didn’t actually exist when the EA goes back to them about the property. Go figure.


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    #89
    average_runner
    Registered Users Posts: 12,846 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    Sunrise_Sunset wrote: »
    Could be described as fake yes, in my opinion, because it pushes the price up, and the bid has no basis. The Estate Agent did tell us they are asking for proof of mortgage approval before making a bid on this property. However, he did say AIP is fine, and we know, AIP is certainly not the same as mortgage approval.

    I remember when we were selling our house and a bidding war happened on it.

    Eventually the highest bid won until the EA told us they didn't have mortgage approval for that amount. We rejected that bid and took the one that was lower than it.

    EA did alot of work for us, but ensuring the bidders had mortgage approval for their bid was the most important part.

    EA will let owners know if a bid was made and can't afford to lose a sale on a false bid


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    #90
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,017 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    average_runner wrote: »
    I remember when we were selling our house and a bidding war happened on it.

    Eventually the highest bid won until the EA told us they didn't have mortgage approval for that amount. We rejected that bid and took the one that was lower than it.

    EA did alot of work for us, but ensuring the bidders had mortgage approval for their bid was the most important part.

    EA will let owners know if a bid was made and can't afford to lose a sale on a false bid

    The most important bit that they didn't do? They shouldn't have accepted any bids without proof of funds.


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    #91
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,442 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    topmanamillion wrote: »
    Estate agents are heavily regulated so faking bids really isn't in their interests. If they were audited they would be asked to provide proof of other bids. If they were unable to do that they could expect heavy fines and ramifications for their licenses. Most work off a base price + commission so there's little point for them of inflating a house price.
    Essentially, they have very little to nothing to gain by fabricating bids and a lot to lose by doing so.
    The best advice I can give is have a price in mind that you are willing to pay for a house.
    To state the obvious, if your price meets the valuation and is the highest bid you'll get the house. That's the simple equation you should focus on.

    Out of interest, where would one find out about these audits/audit reports and has there ever been an an EA "struck off" for failing one of these audits?

    I've said this on other threads but it is in the EA's interest to have an increasing house price market and while the margins may be small on a single house with a fake bid or two, over the protfolioe the estate agent may have for sale at any one time this sum can be significant.


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