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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,527 ✭✭✭tobefrank321


    For as long as I can remember Ireland have peaked in the year or two before the world cup and go in with huge expectations.

    The Scotland and South Africa games could go either way if Ireland aren't mentally 100%. If Ireland go behind at any stage you could see doubts creep in.

    Its great to be world no 1, but means little in the context of a world cup.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,527 ✭✭✭tobefrank321


    Its a very similar South Africa team to 4 years ago. They are by no means brilliant but they certainly know how to win World Cup games. Don't think we can afford to write them or Scotland off just as we shouldn't have written Japan or Argentina off in previous world cups.

    Form seems to mostly go out the window when it comes to Rugby World Cups.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    In 2019 there was a hope that the team would evolve or find ways to improve after a poor 6n. This time around its very different. There isn't major concerns over how the team performs generally on the back of the 6n.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,822 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    The team that played Italy plus a few changes should play Romania, then close to the same 23 that will be lined up to play South Africa should play Tonga with a few players benching against Tonga that will be starting against South Africa, and keeping a few back for South Africa. I have Lowe, Beirne and Doris sitting out the Tonga match to be fresh for South Africa, but could equally start them against Tonga, particularly Lowe, or maybe start Lowe against Romania and rest him against Tonga and push O'Brien or Crowley to the bench instead of Aki. It's all just a matter of getting just the right amount of minutes into the players to prime them.

    Then depending on how everything is going the team against Scotland could be anything in between the Romania and South Africa selections.

    I think it’ll be 18 forwards - 15 backs.

    My guess at 33 is:

    1. Porter, Healy, Kilcoyne
    2. Sheehan, Kelleher, Herring
    3. Furlong, Bealham, O’Toole
    4. Beirne, Henderson
    5. Ryan, McCarthy
    6. O’Mahony, Baird
    7. Van der Flier
    8. Doris, Conan
    9. Gibson-Park, Murray, Casey
    10. Sexton, Byrne, Crowley
    11. Lowe
    12. Henshaw, Aki, McCloskey
    13. Ringrose
    14. Hansen
    15. Keenan, O'Brien

    Plus 1 more winger; one of Earls, Stockdale or Nash.

    I’d guess Earls at this point for his all-round game and experience, assuming he still has decent speed.

    Osborne would have been another option for that last spot but I think he will need an injury to get into the final 33.

    Frawley is very close to McCloskey too but I think McCloskey has done enough to keep his spot.

    These would all need an injury to get into the final 33 in my opinion: Stewart, Treadwell, Prendergast, Coombes, Blade, Frawley, Osborne, Stockdale, Nash, and if I can include Conway for attending a few training sessions. I think Diarmuid Barron was reported to have attended also but I’d say he’d need a couple of injuries to occur to get into contention.

    For Reference, the team V Italy was:

    Kilcoyne, Herring, O'Toole,

    Henderson (C), McCarthy,

    Baird, Conan, Doris,

    Casey, Crowley,

    Stockdale, McCloskey, Henshaw, Earls,

    O'Brien.

    R: Stewart, Healy, Furlong, Beirne, Prendergast, Blade, Frawley, Nash.


    My proposed Team for Romania:

    Kilcoyne, Herring, O'Toole,

    Beirne, McCarthy,

    Baird, Conan, O’Mahony,

    Casey, Sexton (C),

    O'Brien, McCloskey, Henshaw, Earls,

    Crowley.

    R: Kelleher, Healy, Bealham, Henderson, Doris, Murray, Byrne, Aki.


    My proposed Team for Tonga:

    Healy, Kelleher, Bealham,

    Henderson (C), McCarthy,

    Baird, Conan, Van der Flier,

    Murray, Byrne,

    O'Brien, Aki, Ringrose, Hansen,

    Keenan.

    R: Sheehan, Porter, Furlong, Ryan, O'Mahony, Gibson-Park, Sexton, Henshaw.


    My proposed Team for SA:

    Porter, Sheehan, Furlong,

    Beirne, Ryan,

    O'Mahony, Doris, Van der Flier,

    Gibson-Park, Sexton,

    Lowe, Henshaw, Ringrose, Hansen,

    Keenan.

    R: Kelleher, Healy, Bealham, Henderson, Conan, Murray, Byrne, Aki.

    Post edited by Jump_In_Jack on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,849 ✭✭✭ionadnapokot


    Hope yes.. but reality was staring everyone in the face during and after the 6N.

    There used to be the usual cheerleaders on here (one or two) telling us not to trust our eyes.


    What we see this time around is unmistakingly different to anything that has come before.

    With one massive caveat*


    My WC vibes through the years:

    '87 - What's a World Cup?

    '91 - Australia will thump us

    '95 - Nobody can beat Lomu

    '99 - Argentina? We have BOD and stuff

    '03 - You never know what French side will turn up

    '07 - Perfect mix of Lunster

    '11 - Wales? Pfffft we're going to win this thing. Just give it to SOB. Ferris, Heaslip and Sexton will take care of the rest.

    '15 - Best coach. 6N champs. We'll hammer France. Then its NZ in the final.

    '19 - We could go out at the group stage.

    '23 - Grand Slam winners. Prop Sexton* up and nobody can beat us...Except Dupont.

    Post edited by ionadnapokot on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,178 ✭✭✭Brief_Lives




  • Registered Users Posts: 136 ✭✭Tinter Box


    When is the team announced?



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,087 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Not til Thursday at the earliest I'd say and probably more likely Friday tbh.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭Must love hardship


    I heard loughman is training with the squad due to kilkoyne being unfit



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,178 ✭✭✭Brief_Lives




  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,087 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    No issue with that - When fit, he has been ahead of Kilcoyne for Munster and Ireland for a while now.

    If that change was permanent it wouldn't weaken the group at all in my view.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,612 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Thank the God's! Loughman should have been in from the get go.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,545 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    That would be a welcome development. Genuinely baffling that Kilcoyne was called up



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,328 ✭✭✭theVersatile


    Bealham, Earls and Van Der Flier on media duty. Read into that what you will.



  • Registered Users Posts: 92 ✭✭Ribs1234


    Will that be 100 caps for Earls? He could run under Farrell’s shoulder too



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6 TheNeckofChat


    Now I get what Sexton and Keane were laughing at



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭lbj666


    I think all feelings about their prospects are valid which you focus on is all about own mindset.

    The draw is appalling, the advantage Ireland have in welfare is nulled come WC ..they've never been even close to winning a WC quarter except for '91

    On the flipside this is an Ireland team with unprecedented achievements and shouldn't be pissed on cause of their WC history.

    I have said before if they need anymore motivation.. it can be got from those who have dismissed their achievements in the past 18 months.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,547 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Ah lads, let's not become England football fans. Of course we want Ireland to win but above all else, it's s just a game and the craic of the tournament is the main thing. If other teams show up and play better than Ireland, then that's just how it goes. The team has been really well run over the last few years at provincial and international level and they've given us great tournaments and test series. They don't win everything, but that's sport.

    If we have peaked too soon and don't win the tournament, then the question is whether we'd rather a great few years and not win the WC, or be more like Wales with a terrible team who can peak out of nowhere and potentially win a tournament. I'd prefer it the way it is, being well run and consistently very good and then take our chances at the world cup.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,736 ✭✭✭Shehal


    The draw is appalling but Ireland are still the best team in the draw so if anyone should be worried its our opposition.



  • Registered Users Posts: 31 inbloom427


    Glad if Earls gets the 100th cap, but really hope this isn’t a sign they are giving him a run of games to try and play him into form. He’s done and shouldn’t be on the plane.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,545 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Exactly this. France and NZ would be delighted to avoid playing us, which is saying something.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭Must love hardship


    I'd imagine the thought process might be to give him 100 caps at home in the Aviva. As opposed to away in France v samoa.

    Problem with that is that either Lowe or Hansen have to sit out the England game as a result.

    I think the team will be:

    Porter, Sheehan, Bedhlam

    Bierne, Ryan

    Pom, Coombes, VDF

    JgP, Byrne

    Aki, Ringrose

    Hansen, Keenan, Earls

    Kelleher, Healy, Furlong, Baird, Doris, Murray, crowley, Osborne.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭lbj666


    There are more opportunities to slip up that's why the draw is appalling . More bigger hurdles the more chance of falling over one....rwcs are fickle beasts.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,756 ✭✭✭sxt


    Agree with this. I think Ireland will be found out again on the big stage, and all the mental frailties will rise to the surface again. The Leinster final collapse( The core of the Irish team) against Rochelle is case in point


    Winning games against NZ 12 Months ago is great , but if we Meet them in a World cup QF. You'll see who the real number 1 team is, and that's NZ

    Likewise I don't see an injury prone, back from major injury, unmatch fit 39 year old Johnny sexton going through 1, let alone multiple hard games in a row without abruptly breaking down., Then you have a replacement who the coach doesn't trust to start a game ,1 start in 22 games.. starting a QF



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,409 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    It’s hardly worth their while going to France



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,736 ✭✭✭Shehal


    Do you all notice posters like this only talk about previous Irish teams and Leinster but you see them post nothing about the current Irish side, don't you think if they believe this Irish side had a serious flaw they would mention it? That should tell you that even then acknowledge how good this Irish side is.

    The real number 1 is Ireland which is reflected in the world rankings ;) again funny how beating NZL doesn't seem to count for much to you but Leinster losing matters a whole lot. You're grasping and I would recommend against it in order to save yourself from further embarrassment.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 430 ✭✭zetor 4911


    Is Loughnane just temperory injury cover or will he be in the mix for the 33 selected to travel to France



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,736 ✭✭✭Shehal


    Yeah but then that counts for SA for example and France & NZL. Ireland being number 1 means we of all teams should be backing ourselves to get through this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,756 ✭✭✭sxt



    Who do you believe would win if Ireland and NZ meet in QF?

    Which team would you favour ,the number 1 team Ireland or New Zealand..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,545 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    You can't see Sexton getting through multiple, high intensity games...as he did in NZ and the 6Ns.

    Makes sense



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,262 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    any other world cup NZ probably

    given where both teams have been over the last year or so - if it were tomorrow id pick ireland

    given how much nz look to be improving at the moment it might be an even call by the time this likely comes around

    it cant be underestimated how much confidence winning a series in NZ gives a team. whats more, coming back from losing the first test to then win the series is about as hard an achievement as possible apart from a whitewash.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,262 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    in fairness, sexton shouldnt have played in the second and probably third test last summer but the HIA protocols are a joke

    and didnt he get injured against france in the 6N this year?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,545 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Can't remember off the top of my head re: France, but I thought he played the majority of the match

    Looked it up there, he went off around the 48min mark



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    And he went off in the first half of the first Test in NZ.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,262 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    indeed, forgot it was early in that game

    yeah i cant remember specifically what happened but id presume he was injured if he went that early, when he wasnt involved against italy either id say it was more down to injury rather than giving the other OHs time

    as a fan of the player, i want him playing as hes still the best option. as a fan of the man, i think he should have retired years ago. the injuries and more importantly, head knocks (not to sound like george hook but he definitely has had way too many) are surely going to have a negative effect at some stage, much as i hope im wrong



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭Must love hardship


    And missed some of the Autumn Internationals and wasn't available to play for Leinster since the 1st of January.

    Honestly i believe it's foolish to be expecting Sexton to not get injured between now and the world cup knock out stages.

    Saying that I am fully behind the Jack Crowley band wagon. I think Ireland will win a 1/4 final V France with or without Sexton.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,429 ✭✭✭Morgans


    in any future world cup, Ireland will be at best at 50/50 to beat an All Blacks side or France playing at home. If they fail to do this year, so be it. It is not the mental frailties of World Cup time. Ireland could play above themselves and still see themselves kicked out of the group/lose at QF.

    Also the idea that winning a QF is some form of achievement that unburdened future generations of Irish world cups is also nonsense. It would be nice for them to show what they can do.

    Are there many French fans worried about France's inability to win a World Cup in 36 years?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,736 ✭✭✭Shehal


    The better side at the moment which is Ireland, it'll be close but based on form you'd have to say Ireland.



  • Registered Users Posts: 174 ✭✭noc1980


    Getting past a QF would absolutely make it easier for future teams to go well in world cups without the mental baggage we bring with us. We couldn't buy a win against NZ but when we finally did we've had an excellent record against them since. Belief is everything. Irish players go in to every European cup believing they can win it, Welsh players don't. That flips in world cups, even bang average Welsh teams know they can make the Semi Final. "Been there, done that" as they say.

    You're right that we could play well and still go out due to the draw but our record tells us we crash out without firing a shot. We've been the easiest quarter final opponents in the tournament's history. Only once have we made a game of a quarter final, when we were massive underdogs 'giving it a lash' - at home. Scotland came closer to a semi final 8 years ago than we have in over 30 years.

    We keep hearing about our record over Scotland to downplay fears we might not make it out of the pool but we're told our own horrible record in this tournament doesn't matter. If we're going to talk about Scotland's 1 win in 12 or whatever it is against us then it's fair to mention our record of zero knockout wins ever.

    Many of us are fed up seeing the likes of Wales and Argentina in Semi Finals while we're packing our bags with a thousand excuses. They need to perform at this world cup and live up to expectations for once, no crying about the draw or injuries and hard luck stories. It's not accepted elsewhere so it shouldn't be accepted in the home of world's #1 side.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Also the idea that winning a QF is some form of achievement that unburdened future generations of Irish world cups is also nonsense. It would be nice for them to show what they can do.

    I’d disagree with this tbh. I think, psychologically, it’s definitely an issue for us at this stage.

    But I’d liken it to our record vs the All Blacks. Once we got the monkey off our back, we’ve a good record vs them. I’d hope similar will happen once we eventually get passed a QF.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,263 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Win rates versus New Zealand from 2016 onwards. If we repeat this kind of form after finally breaking our QF duck I'll be thrilled.

    South Africa - 3.5/13 = 27%

    England - 1.5/3 = 50%

    France - 1/6 = 17%

    Australia - 3.5/22 = 16%

    Ireland - 5/8 = 63%



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,429 ✭✭✭Morgans


    Didnt Ireland have a good record against the All Blacks before the last world cup? They are never going to be so far clear of the All Blacks that we don't play close to our maximum to win.

    Beating NZ/Fra in a QF and losing to Eng/Aus or whoever in the semis would be a failure for me. The QF issue is nice for pundits to talk about. There have been only two quarter finals where I'd have given us a better than 50% chance of winning - one where we unfortunately had a ton of injuries - Argentina in 2015. The Irish performance vs France was one of the best of the tournament/best of irish world cups, but sadly came at a cost.

    The welsh one in 2011 was a 50/50 game against a good Welsh team, that had our number unfortunately. I don't see these as mental failures. It wasnt mental baggage that prevented Ireland from being better than New Zealand in 2019.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,429 ✭✭✭Morgans


    I think you are setting them up to fail. Being number 1 in the world is borderline irrelevant, given that the draw for the World Cup was made three years ago. If Ireland was in the other half of the draw and failed to deal with that opposition, then you could talk about mental baggage. But claiming that if Ireland fail to beat South Africa, New Zealand and France (at home) is down to mental baggage is nonsense. Even if they do everything right they could very easily get beaten by a better team on the day. Believing that Ireland only have to get their head right and its in the bag is an immature way of looking at this. They have no divine right to beat these teams. If they play to their potential, they might.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I'd never argue that mental baggage alone is what's costing us, tho. (It's why I said it was an issue). You still have to go out and perform. And to beat NZ or France, we'll likely have to be closer to our best.

    But I think not having that mental baggage in future World Cup's would help us to perform closer to our best.

    I'd absolutely agree with the following too fwiw:

    Beating NZ/Fra in a QF and losing to Eng/Aus or whoever in the semis would be a failure for me

    But I strongly think that if we do win a QF, we'll also make a final.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,429 ✭✭✭Morgans


    If we can get through Scotland, SA, NZ or Fra, who knows who would be left standing.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    I would guess that he's only there temporarily. They need another prop up to speed if there is an injury and, with Kilcoyne and Healy not being particularly young, it's prudent to have Loughman integrated. But they did this earlier in the camp also with others such as Conway coming into the camp for a week before being released due to work load/knocks for members of the squad.

    The phrasing of Fogarty's comment yesterday suggests it's for the duration of Kilcoyne's rest period:

    "Killer [Kilcoyne] is just looking after himself for the week, so Jeremy will step in with us."



  • Registered Users Posts: 8 TheRestorationOfPeter


    Earls to make his 100th cap v England

    The records keep tumbling



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,409 ✭✭✭✭salmocab




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭lbj666


    More a question who on the team would be still left standing at that stage.

    Game against SA and Tonga ..potential knockout against the Scotland..

    Players will be putting their season/careers on the line for such 1/4 final game.

    It's why there are questions whether they have the size and depth to withstand this.

    Past winners have had far more comfortable opposition in the 1/4s ..that is guaranteed not to happen.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8 TheRestorationOfPeter


    Only Irish winger to ever reach 100 caps?

    To put that in context the next closest is Trimble on 70 caps


    How about the oldest centurion winger in International rugby ever!



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