1billion to build children's hospital

cabledude · 25-02-2017 10:42pm

xLisaBx wrote: »

Am I the only one here who doesn't mind that this is costing 1 Billion? If it has decent facilities, better than the care we can currently provide for kids, is aesthetically pleasing and will help save countless lives, can we not put it down to a long term investment?

Its not about the cost, as such. Its the inflation from the cost a couple of years ago. At a million euro per bed, a 487 bed hospital should cost €487m. Where does the other 513 million come into the picture?

oppenheimer1 · 25-02-2017 11:35pm

cabledude wrote: »

I don't think you get it. Getting into Dublin city centre, for those of us who don't live in or around Dublin, is a nightmare. Its a hideous city to try and get around by car. Imagine, if you can, having a child who is going through some sort of treatment. Mum will be in the back most likely. Dad or some other family member will be driving. Add all these factors into the traffic, abundance of road signs for every place except where you want to go. Then you have the heavy traffic, car parking issues and all the rest.

If you and the people making the decision to locate this new hospital in the middle of an already congested city cannot see the merit of what I posted above, I don't know what to think. Co-locate by all means. Build the new hospital out in the M50 and build a new maternity hospital under the same roof.

The families and children and logistics should not be discounted.

And if you can drive to the M50 in 9 minutes less than getting to inner city Dublin you are some woman for one woman.

PS. No-one believes Google Maps or AA route planner or any other app.

I think that it is you that cannot see the merit in the decision that was taken.

If co location means that children's outcomes are better then what of it if out patients are slightly inconvenienced. Are we really going to value the 30mins of an out patient sitting in traffic higher than a critical 5 mins to save a child's life in an emergency?

oppenheimer1 · 25-02-2017 11:54pm

I think its important that project costing and tendering be explained to those here that do not understand it.

Initially there is a budget, this is usually high level and generated quickly and unfortunately, generally ambitious.
The design team and the client sit down and work out exactly what they want and where they want it.
A planning application is made
Following planning a tender is produced. This is costed internally by the design team, and is then sent out to contractors for pricing. The internal costings are extremely sensitive (as this gives the contractors a target) and the contractors bids are commercially sensitive.
The tenders are evaluated and the most economically advantageous is selected to construct it. This is usually the lowest price, and it is fixed. The contractor cannot charge more than the tender price unless there are changes after the contracts are signed.

There can be a huge difference between the initial high level cost and accepted tender price due to a number of factors:

Feature creep
Difficulties with the site not initially foreseen e.g construction access, contamination.
Inflation
Higher level of finish quality
Different final design to the initial one envisioned.
Market climate

Without knowing the specifics, I would take a guess that the increase in cost from the initial budget vs todays price is a combination of all of the above, but that market climate has a large part to play in it.

Finally, building in Ireland is extremely expensive. This is largely down to the high cost of labour. If we want cheaper buildings, then we would have to pay our brickies, electricians and other trades less.

mikeoneilly · 26-02-2017 12:02am

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I think its important that project costing and tendering be explained to those here that do not understand it.
Initially there is a budget, this is usually high level and generated quickly and unfortunately, generally ambitious.

The design team and the client sit down and work out exactly what they want and where they want it.

A planning application is made

Following planning a tender is produced. This is costed internally by the design team, and is then sent out to contractors for pricing. The internal costings are extremely sensitive (as this gives the contractors a target) and the contractors bids are commercially sensitive.

The tenders are evaluated and the most economically advantageous is selected to construct it. This is usually the lowest price, and it is fixed. The contractor cannot charge more than the tender price unless there are changes after the contracts are signed.

There can be a huge difference in the initial high level cost due to a number of factors:
Feature creep

Difficulties with the site not initially foreseen e.g construction access, contamination.

Inflation

Higher level of finish quality

Different final design to the initial one envisioned.

Market climate

Without knowing the specifics, I would take a guess that the increase in cost from the initial budget vs todays price is a combination of all of the above, but that market climate has a large part to play in it.

Finally, building in Ireland is extremely expensive. This is largely down to the high cost of labour. If we want cheaper buildings, then we would have to pay our brickies, electricians and other trades less.

Lol at this

It's all the Brickie's fault

oppenheimer1 · 26-02-2017 12:12am

mikeoneilly wrote: »

Lol at this

It's all the Brickie's fault

Go on then, you tell us why its so expensive to build here.

I'm all ears.

kupus · 26-02-2017 12:40am

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Go on then, you tell us why its so expensive to build here.

I'm all ears.

Health and safety.

It used to be about common sense. Then they realised they can make money from common sense.

They repackaged it and called it health and safety.

It caused costs to rise for small time builders and all businesses in general so much so, that a lot of them went wallop.
Their businesses were taken over by the bigger ones, who of course were canvassing the gov for health and safety.

JupiterKid · 26-02-2017 12:43am

Ridiculous and totally unjustified cost hike. How can this be ok in any sense?

Should be a matter for the Public Accounts Committee and the Dept of the Auditor and Comptroller General.

mikeoneilly · 26-02-2017 12:45am

Construction inflation doesn't explain it

More likely miscalculation and the usual vested interests and brown envelopes to be taken care of

oppenheimer1 · 26-02-2017 12:52am

kupus wrote: »

Health and safety.

It used to be about common sense. Then they realised they can make money from common sense.

They repackaged it and called it health and safety.

It caused costs to rise for small time builders and all businesses in general so much so, that a lot of them went wallop.
Their businesses were taken over by the bigger ones, who of course were canvassing the gov for health and safety.

In case there was any doubt, you've confirmed to us that you know nothing about the construction industry.

You may call it common sense, but it isn't all that common especially on sites where time and profit are on the line. If it wasn't for the legislation on H&S deaths would be still at the levels seen in the 70's on Irish sites. There is a cost to proper health and safety, but it is far less than the cost of an accident, both in human and financial terms.

The drivers of construction cost in Ireland are land and labour. Materials are also more expensive but they only form a small proportion of the build cost (typically 33%). In the case of the hospital, they already have the land, so the reason this building costs more in Ireland than in another country is the price of labour.

oppenheimer1 · 26-02-2017 12:55am

mikeoneilly wrote: »

Construction inflation doesn't explain it

More likely miscalculation and the usual vested interests and brown envelopes to be taken care of

Have you any evidence for the above?

No. Thought so.

cnocbui · 26-02-2017 11:40am

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Have you any evidence for the above?

No. Thought so.

The testimony of Ahern is pretty good evidence.

kupus · 26-02-2017 12:48pm

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

In case there was any doubt, you've confirmed to us that you know nothing about the construction industry.

I know it only too well lol

oppenheimer1 · 26-02-2017 1:31pm

cnocbui wrote: »

The testimony of Ahern is pretty good evidence.

Ahern is long gone and has had nothing to do with the hospital since it moved from the Mater.

kupus wrote: »

I know it only too well lol

You clearly don't lol.

cnocbui · 26-02-2017 3:56pm

Nice deflection.

satguy · 28-02-2017 7:39pm

All these builders will need somewhere to park their cars if they go with JS.

That should be fun ..

Idbatterim · 28-02-2017 7:54pm

no, no proof of any shady dealing. But its Ireland... But you are 100% right, because WE dont have any proof, Im sure its all above board, the taxpayer is number 1 concern, I'm sure we have top people making the best decisions... Ill let you know when I hit Vicar street lads...

kupus · 01-03-2017 12:19am

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/hse-forced-to-remove-details-of-billions-in-payments-from-website-30455702.html

shady dealings for all

\0/

Money really grows on trees

satguy · 28-01-2019 11:58pm

satguy wrote: »

It's in the wrong place..
It's same size as the one its replacing..
It will overrun on cost and will end up costing 1.2 Billion..
It will cost another 500 or 600 Million to fit out..
It will lay idle when built as there is no Staff, or no parking if they do find Staff..
It's going to be a Rush Hour nightmare, so only get sick on Sunday's ..

There is 100 acres at Newlands Cross,, or there is another 100 acres at Peamount Hospital..

Newlands Cross is where it should be.. the luas goes past, the Nass Road is a fine 3 lane road with many bus routes nearby.

Just quoting and old post I made /said in / on 23-02-2017, 22:25

Lone Stone · 29-01-2019 12:08am

Comes across as one of those old mafia construction jobs where they just never finish it and go over budget to suck up as much payroll as they can. What a ****ing a joke they should get as much of that back as possible and throw some one ln prison scamming *****.

professore · 29-01-2019 2:09pm

Anita Blow wrote: »

Because a greenfield site doesn't have the level of public transport access nor co-location it would need.

Outside the M50 and extend the Luas to it. Plenty of public transport options then and people from outside (and inside) Dublin could actually get there without further clogging up the city.

As someone who had a child in Crumlin for several months, this was a much better location than in the city centre. The quality of care was excellent.

I get the specialty argument thing ... but you still have to go to other hospitals at other locations anyway for specialty treatment even after this is built.

The last thing families need with a sick child is to be struggling paying several hundreds a day for accommodation in Dublin City Centre - which is what it costs now. How many rooms are planned for parents of sick children?

Also for front line and support staff, this choice severely limits the liveability. It's grand if you are a consultant on several hundred grand with reserved parking, but not so much for junior doctors, nurses, janitorial staff etc.

Wheeliebin30 · 29-01-2019 2:59pm

professore wrote: »

Outside the M50 and extend the Luas to it. Plenty of public transport options then and people from outside (and inside) Dublin could actually get there without further clogging up the city.

As someone who had a child in Crumlin for several months, this was a much better location than in the city centre. The quality of care was excellent.

I get the specialty argument thing ... but you still have to go to other hospitals at other locations anyway for specialty treatment even after this is built.

The last thing families need with a sick child is to be struggling paying several hundreds a day for accommodation in Dublin City Centre - which is what it costs now. How many rooms are planned for parents of sick children?

Also for front line and support staff, this choice severely limits the liveability. It's grand if you are a consultant on several hundred grand with reserved parking, but not so much for junior doctors, nurses, janitorial staff etc.

1000 rooms for families.

Feisar · 29-01-2019 3:32pm

A company priced and won the job but probobly had a list of exclusions as long as yer arm.

Price it to win it, then stick the boot in.

smurgen · 29-01-2019 3:53pm

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I think its important that project costing and tendering be explained to those here that do not understand it.
Initially there is a budget, this is usually high level and generated quickly and unfortunately, generally ambitious.

The design team and the client sit down and work out exactly what they want and where they want it.

A planning application is made

Following planning a tender is produced. This is costed internally by the design team, and is then sent out to contractors for pricing. The internal costings are extremely sensitive (as this gives the contractors a target) and the contractors bids are commercially sensitive.

The tenders are evaluated and the most economically advantageous is selected to construct it. This is usually the lowest price, and it is fixed. The contractor cannot charge more than the tender price unless there are changes after the contracts are signed.

There can be a huge difference between the initial high level cost and accepted tender price due to a number of factors:
Feature creep

Difficulties with the site not initially foreseen e.g construction access, contamination.

Inflation

Higher level of finish quality

Different final design to the initial one envisioned.

Market climate

Without knowing the specifics, I would take a guess that the increase in cost from the initial budget vs todays price is a combination of all of the above, but that market climate has a large part to play in it.

Finally, building in Ireland is extremely expensive. This is largely down to the high cost of labour. If we want cheaper buildings, then we would have to pay our brickies, electricians and other trades less.

Initial cost factored in inflation,changes to design etc.gonna take major digging to uncover the reason for the over spend being the magnitude it is.

James Brown · 29-01-2019 4:47pm

smurgen wrote: »

Initial cost factored in inflation,changes to design etc.gonna take major digging to uncover the reason for the over spend being the magnitude it is.

'inappropriate behaviour'.

Hermy · 29-01-2019 6:52pm

Recently, I had to bring someone to James's Hospital.

Traffic was light, the weather was good, and yet despite this, it took 20 minutes just to drive from the main entrance to the set down area because of the queue for the underground car park.

How any right-thinking individual thinks it makes sense to stick another hospital in this already overcrowded bottleneck is just beyond me.

Water John · 07-02-2019 10:43pm

Fiesar, it's BAM, par for the course. Another €200m there.

petronius · 15-06-2019 11:47am

Harris should resign. What must this idiot do to get sacked. the Cervicial Scandal, the black hole for a billion or two which is the National Childrens Hospital, not to mention the crazy waiting lists, and A&E overcrowding..
Maybe the government want one complete moron as a minister to make the rest look better...

Augme · 15-06-2019 11:53am

petronius wrote: »

Harris should resign. What must this idiot do to get sacked. the Cervicial Scandal, the black hole for a billion or two which is the National Childrens Hospital, not to mention the crazy waiting lists, and A&E overcrowding..
Maybe the government want one complete moron as a minister to make the rest look better...

The problem is that any politician from any political party is doomed.

InTheShadows · 15-06-2019 12:31pm

petronius wrote: »

Harris should resign. What must this idiot do to get sacked. the Cervicial Scandal, the black hole for a billion or two which is the National Childrens Hospital, not to mention the crazy waiting lists, and A&E overcrowding..
Maybe the government want one complete moron as a minister to make the rest look better...

The man is an absolute disaster. It's depressing seeing the utter lack of political talent on these islands.

Discodog · 15-06-2019 1:05pm

Firstly it's in totally the wrong place. It needs to be on a big, greenfield site but the location was decided by vested interests not on what's best for patients.

Secondly it will be two tier. Kids with rich children will get priority treatment. We are paying for a partially private hospital which has to be that way to keep the consultants happy.

ToddyDoody · 16-06-2019 12:21am

Is it beyond the realms of possibility to build what they can under the agreed budget, put a tent over it and return to the project when more funds accumulate?

holyhead · 16-06-2019 12:24am

Didn't the developer Noel Smyth offer to give the state a site along the M50 to build the children's hospital? James Hospital is too near the city centre. As for the cost explosion nothing surprises me anymore with Ireland.

ghost of ireland past · 02-02-2020 10:30am

This is extraordinary but the Chinese have just built a completely new hospital for their coranavirus victims in less than two weeks.

They started work on the 24th January and the new hospital opens for business tomorrow, the 3rd Feb, apparently.

It houses 1,000 patients and is a modern hospital.

The Chinese really do put us to shame. No western country would be capable of that.

https://www.rt.com/news/479877-coronavirus-hospital-wuhan-china-construction/

It really is extraordinary stuff from the Chinese. I have huge respect for them.

careless sherpa · 02-02-2020 10:36am

ghost of ireland past wrote: »

This is extraordinary but the Chinese have just built a completely new hospital for their coranavirus victims in less than two weeks.

They started work on the 24th January and the new hospital opens for business tomorrow, the 3rd Feb, apparently.

It houses 1,000 patients and is a modern hospital.

The Chinese really do put us to shame. No western country would be capable of that.

https://www.rt.com/news/479877-coronavirus-hospital-wuhan-china-construction/

It really is extraordinary stuff from the Chinese. I have huge respect for them.

Knowing the Chinese it is probably an undercover crematorium

73bc61lyohr0mu · 02-02-2020 10:40am

ghost of ireland past wrote: »

This is extraordinary but the Chinese have just built a completely new hospital for their coranavirus victims in less than two weeks.

They started work on the 24th January and the new hospital opens for business tomorrow, the 3rd Feb, apparently.

It houses 1,000 patients and is a modern hospital.

The Chinese really do put us to shame. No western country would be capable of that.

https://www.rt.com/news/479877-coronavirus-hospital-wuhan-china-construction/

It really is extraordinary stuff from the Chinese. I have huge respect for them.

Easy to build a hospital that quickly when it's just a load of prefabs fired together..

Oranage2 · 02-02-2020 10:40am

ghost of ireland past wrote: »

This is extraordinary but the Chinese have just built a completely new hospital for their coranavirus victims in less than two weeks.

They started work on the 24th January and the new hospital opens for business tomorrow, the 3rd Feb, apparently.

It houses 1,000 patients and is a modern hospital.

The Chinese really do put us to shame. No western country would be capable of that.

https://www.rt.com/news/479877-coronavirus-hospital-wuhan-china-construction/

It really is extraordinary stuff from the Chinese. I have huge respect for them.

I think it's just a temporary hospital.

Yurt2 · 02-02-2020 10:57am

ghost of ireland past wrote: »

This is extraordinary but the Chinese have just built a completely new hospital for their coranavirus victims in less than two weeks.

They started work on the 24th January and the new hospital opens for business tomorrow, the 3rd Feb, apparently.

It houses 1,000 patients and is a modern hospital.

The Chinese really do put us to shame. No western country would be capable of that.

https://www.rt.com/news/479877-coronavirus-hospital-wuhan-china-construction/

It really is extraordinary stuff from the Chinese. I have huge respect for them.

It's a bunch of prefabs. Don't get too excited.

02-02-2020 10:58am

The location was a joke from day one anyway and surely a back handed favour to someone.

seamus · 02-02-2020 11:00am

There are a raft of financial, social, practical and ethical reasons why Western countries don't do this, and China does.

All the idiots on Facebook think that China is going to build a modern, fully stock, safe and permanent hospital in a reasonable budget, in two weeks. And that we don't do this on Ireland because we lack the will or lack the discipline or something.

It goes to show how utterly clueless people are about these things and how simplistic and black and white they see everything.

KilOit · 02-02-2020 11:03am

ghost of ireland past wrote: »

This is extraordinary but the Chinese have just built a completely new hospital for their coranavirus victims in less than two weeks.

They started work on the 24th January and the new hospital opens for business tomorrow, the 3rd Feb, apparently.

It houses 1,000 patients and is a modern hospital.

The Chinese really do put us to shame. No western country would be capable of that.

https://www.rt.com/news/479877-coronavirus-hospital-wuhan-china-construction/

It really is extraordinary stuff from the Chinese. I have huge respect for them.

Probably has no escalators or lifts to crush or maim people

SEPT 23 1989 · 02-02-2020 11:16am

The Chinese built a motorway the size of the M50 in eight months

Anything in its path was given two weeks to leave or get bulldozed into the earth

Compensation to land owners was not getting a bullet in the back of the head

Great lads alright

threeball · 02-02-2020 11:20am

ghost of ireland past wrote: »

This is extraordinary but the Chinese have just built a completely new hospital for their coranavirus victims in less than two weeks.

They started work on the 24th January and the new hospital opens for business tomorrow, the 3rd Feb, apparently.

It houses 1,000 patients and is a modern hospital.

The Chinese really do put us to shame. No western country would be capable of that.

https://www.rt.com/news/479877-coronavirus-hospital-wuhan-china-construction/

It really is extraordinary stuff from the Chinese. I have huge respect for them.

It was an empty existing building that they repurposed and fitted out as a hospital in two weeks. Still impressive but I very much doubt it's much more than a load of isolation rooms, some low level respiratory care and a morgue.
People go on like they built the Mayo Clinic in jot time.

recyclebin · 02-02-2020 11:22am

Motorway bridges falling down regularly also happens in China. They come down as quick as they go up.

threeball · 02-02-2020 11:25am

recyclebin wrote: »

Motorway bridges falling down regularly also happens in China. They come down as quick as they go up.

You can't build anything worth a sh1t quickly. Concrete takes 40 days to set to full strength alone. Keep stacking pour after pour of uncured concrete ontop of one another and it's not going to end well.

threeball · 02-02-2020 11:29am

Great PR and spin by the Chinese though.

Chairman Wu we've just had an outbreak of a deadly disease by keeping loads of wild and domestic animals locked in cages creating a horrendous breeding ground.

Wu: Ya just tell them we're building a hospital in two weeks to deal with it. They lap that sh1t up.

Xertz · 02-02-2020 11:30am

It’s also an emergency response to a major contagious disease outbreak. Effectively it’s just a military quarantine site built by a command economy.

The NCH may be very over budget but the projects are as comparable as rolling out a music festival venue and building a high spec opera house.

We seem to have a “too many cooks” problem in the health system though. Well intentioned people kept redefining the parameters and even location of that project and there was nobody at a political level was capable of standing up and calling a halt to what was going on.

We need to genuinely learn lessons from this and I don’t mean just saying “lessons will be learnt “. There needs to be deep and serious reflection on what went on. It looks to me like it wasn’t one person or agency or anything like that, rather everyone was running around trying to deliver different visions of a project.

You don’t start building any large project until all the specs are absolutely locked down.

cnocbui · 02-02-2020 12:11pm

ghost of ireland past wrote: »

This is extraordinary but the Chinese have just built a completely new hospital for their coranavirus victims in less than two weeks.

They started work on the 24th January and the new hospital opens for business tomorrow, the 3rd Feb, apparently.

It houses 1,000 patients and is a modern hospital.

The Chinese really do put us to shame. No western country would be capable of that.

https://www.rt.com/news/479877-coronavirus-hospital-wuhan-china-construction/

It really is extraordinary stuff from the Chinese. I have huge respect for them.

So what? This one is the same as the one they built in 7 days for the SARS outbreak. It was so great they abandoned it afterwards.

Richard Hillman · 02-02-2020 12:18pm

I don't mind the prefab hospital to use as hospital beds. We could easily build a medical facility for general tasks and operations etc and then a bunch of prefab units for patient beds like the Chinese.

They could spend 2bn on this children's hospital and in 2-3 years they will find flaws. There is too much emphasis on designs that attempt perfection, fully in the knowledge that they will find non structural flaws a couple of years later.

A prefab hospital bed is still bed than a corridor at a Modern Super Hospital.

02-02-2020 12:26pm

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

The Chinese built a motorway the size of the M50 in eight months

Anything in its path was given two weeks to leave or get bulldozed into the earth

In Xi'an, there is an area called Gaoxin which is the High-Technology zone now, which has most of the corporate bank offices, and other large company offices. Fifteen-twenty years ago, it was all farmland owned by, well, farmers. The Chinese government told them what was planned, the property values skyrocketed, and the government bought the land from the people. Most of the millionaire families in Shaanxi come from farmer backgrounds where the government bought the land from them. Same with the area around Daiyanta which was a swamp, and now is where the rich have started building houses. Land bought from the owners.

Compensation to land owners was not getting a bullet in the back of the head

There is a flawed perception about China in the west. Local governments are not the same as the Beijing government and vary widely in terms of efficiency and how they do their business. In many provinces, the land is bought from the owners (although ownership of all land is actually held in trust by the government, and people just rent it), while in other provinces the land is seized.

Any evidence that people got a bullet to the head for refusing the government's development? Not saying that they wouldn't do it, because they would but I'm wondering if you're simply basing this on how the government behaved in Mao's time?

My apartment complex of five towers, each over 24 floors tall, was built in just under a year. Private company constructing and leasing (not government although probably they own 30% of the company which is standard). Good quality building, underground parking, shopping area included within the complex. So, yes, China can build really fast when they want to. Usually, the quality is low in most construction though.

02-02-2020 12:33pm

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I don't mind the prefab hospital to use as hospital beds. We could easily build a medical facility for general tasks and operations etc and then a bunch of prefab units for patient beds like the Chinese.

They could spend 2bn on this children's hospital and in 2-3 years they will find flaws. There is too much emphasis on designs that attempt perfection, fully in the knowledge that they will find non structural flaws a couple of years later.

A prefab hospital bed is still bed than a corridor at a Modern Super Hospital.

And they will. This is going to be one of those projects that never stops costing stupid money. And all of us so-called nay-sayers will still be told we're wrong and that's just how things are.

1billion to build children's hospital

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