Aviation on the Aran Islands

19-10-2019 11:06am #1

So I see that Aer Arann have a 4 month reprieve. Flights continue until end of January 2020.

I wonder is there scope for a new operator? One that would open up the Inishbofin-Cleggan service as well as serving the current operation? The Tecnam P2012 looks like an interesting replacement for the BN-2s which are from the 70s IIRC.

One can dream I suppose...

Irish Steve · 19-10-2019 4:41pm

Looking at the specs, it's marginal at MTOW for the islands runways, the redeeming factor could be that it would not have to carry anything like full tanks most of the time. As for the costs, that could be an issue, in that it's still using piston engines, (albeit possibly approved for mogas rather than avgas) which have a significantly higher lifetime maintenance and operating cost compared to turboprops, but the advantage of that is the ability to still operate single crew with passengers, which is an issue for most regulators when twin turbo props are used.

at this stage, the Islanders are likely to be very close to the end of their service life, but a viable replacement is not easy, given the specialist nature of the islands operation, the weather and short runways combine to make reliable scheduled operations a very significant challenge.

islanderre · 19-10-2019 6:14pm

They have 3 Islanders
EI-AYN is a 1974 vintage, EI-BCE is a 1976 and EI-CUW is a 1998 vintage. (Googled it!!!)

I have flown multiple times in YN & CE..... think its YN that has a Concorde like yoke!!!

They are maintained meticulously so would expect them to soldier on for a long time more..... presumably the lack of pressurisation means they can fly indefinitely in theory?

Hope they keep going..... the last last time the government tried to award the contract to a Helicopter service didnt go down well with natives on the Aran Islands

EI321 · 20-10-2019 3:01pm

There are plenty of Cessna Caravans available on the second hand market.

I think the main problem with the Aer Arann service is its viability in Winter, when Connemara has almost no tourists and many local hospitality businesses close or only open part time hours. This is in addition to the regular weather viability issues.

Personally I would like to see the government include it with a new regional PSO air service. It would be nice to see a once a day service from DUB to Connemara, if only! I have a house in Connemara and the 4.5 hour drive limits my trips, its a very tiring drive from Dublin on a Friday evening. If Donegal can sustain a 42 passenger aircraft on a PSO then it would be lovely to see a smaller one serve Galway too.

sdanseo · 20-10-2019 3:09pm

EI321 wrote: »

There are plenty of Cessna Caravans available on the second hand market.

I think the main problem with the Aer Arann service is its viability in Winter, when Connemara has almost no tourists and many local hospitality businesses close or only open part time hours. This is in addition to the regular weather viability issues.

Personally I would like to see the government include it with a new regional PSO air service. It would be nice to see a once a day service from DUB to Connemara, if only! I have a house in Connemara and the 4.5 hour drive limits my trips, its a very tiring drive from Dublin on a Friday evening. If Donegal can sustain a 42 passenger aircraft on a PSO then it would be lovely to see a smaller one serve Galway too.

Caravans have a higher capacity, are more sluggish, require longer runways and lack the redundancy of a second engine. They're a horrible aircraft and 10% of all Caravans built have had fatal crashes.

The Donegal PSO is sustained because there is no motorway to Donegal and because of the PSO. It would not exist if either one disappeared which is why the flights to Galway stopped.

20-10-2019 5:11pm

EI321 wrote: »

There are plenty of Cessna Caravans available on the second hand market.

I think the main problem with the Aer Arann service is its viability in Winter, when Connemara has almost no tourists and many local hospitality businesses close or only open part time hours. This is in addition to the regular weather viability issues.

Personally I would like to see the government include it with a new regional PSO air service. It would be nice to see a once a day service from DUB to Connemara, if only! I have a house in Connemara and the 4.5 hour drive limits my trips, its a very tiring drive from Dublin on a Friday evening. If Donegal can sustain a 42 passenger aircraft on a PSO then it would be lovely to see a smaller one serve Galway too.

Re caravans, until they produce a two engine variant that’s not going to happen.

However, re: the PSO route, I noted when Cleggan was opened for that one day on the Alcock & Brown centenary, that the time and the driving distance from there to Dublin is roughly the same as it is to Farranfore & to Dunloe. To me, if you could get an aircraft that serves that length of runway from that route, that bit further west, you may have a case for the PSO to go to there.

L1011 · 20-10-2019 5:27pm

Surrounding population around Cleggan is a bit more problematic I'd think.

Donegal PSO won't go away with a dual carriageway to Letterkenny which is the only likely major improvement to Donegal roads. It doesn't serve Letterkenny basically - buses connect it to DUB

20-10-2019 9:04pm

L1011 wrote: »

Surrounding population around Cleggan is a bit more problematic I'd think.

Clifden, Letterfrack, Kylemore Abbey, the wider Connemara region...

With Citylink service to the gate. Not sure it’d support a 42 person aircraft, but a 19 seater...

L1011 · 20-10-2019 9:09pm

PSO funding for a 19 seater would not be massively less than a 42. Still two pilots and the cabin crew reduction only removes the lowest salary

20-10-2019 9:34pm

L1011 wrote: »

PSO funding for a 19 seater would not be massively less than a 42. Still two pilots and the cabin crew reduction only removes the lowest salary

Oh, kay...... I was on about the passenger load, but I suppose if you’ve a wish to suppress PSOs, you have to find your doubt points where you can.....

EI321 · 20-10-2019 11:56pm

I don't think anything bigger than an Islander or Quest Kodiak a would be capable of operating out of Connemara or the Islands without large investments in runways.

Stovepipe · 21-10-2019 9:03pm

10% of all Caravans built have been lost, because they are operated off rough runways, with minimal fire fighting support, minimal ATC, quite often no radar coverage and probably overloaded.

sdanseo · 21-10-2019 10:19pm

Stovepipe wrote: »

10% of all Caravans built have been lost, because they are operated off rough runways, with minimal fire fighting support, minimal ATC, quite often no radar coverage and probably overloaded.

Sounds very like the Aran Islands operation, bar the overloading.

Irish Steve · 22-10-2019 10:44am

A caravan was looked at a few years ago, 2007, there was a fatal accident when returning to the runway at Inverin, http://www.aaiu.ie/node/227 so there is likely to be a reluctance to look at that type again any time soon.

L1011 · 22-10-2019 10:49am

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh, kay...... I was on about the passenger load, but I suppose if you’ve a wish to suppress PSOs, you have to find your doubt points where you can.....

This isn't about "suppressing", it's about basic common sense.

There is no justification to run a PSO service to an airport with no facilities in the middle of nowhere

23-10-2019 1:25am

L1011 wrote: »

This isn't about "suppressing", it's about basic common sense.

There is no justification to run a PSO service to an airport with no facilities in the middle of nowhere

Common sense, setting the implicit political position of the forum & sealioning other positions, poh-tay-tow poh-tah-tow....

gctest50 · 23-10-2019 1:34am

L1011 wrote: »

This isn't about "suppressing", it's about basic common sense.

There is no justification to run a PSO service to an airport with no facilities in the middle of nowhere

Real men don't need no facilities

sdanseo · 23-10-2019 6:06pm

L1011 wrote: »

This isn't about "suppressing", it's about basic common sense.

There is no justification to run a PSO service to an airport with no facilities in the middle of nowhere

Precisely.

Stovepipe · 23-10-2019 8:45pm

Keeping those Islanders running is hard work; they are only made to special order these days and Pilatus prefers to build the turbine version. Plenty of turbine options out there these days.

L1011 · 23-10-2019 9:08pm

Did Pilatus not sell BN decades ago?

26-11-2019 10:32pm

State is buying EICA.

https://www.thejournal.ie/connemara-airport-bought-by-irish-government-4907452-Nov2019/

Good to see air services to the islands survive. Now here’s hoping the airfield becomes a decent place to route into for GA...

Carawaystick · 29-11-2019 11:49pm

islanderre wrote: »

Hope they keep going..... the last last time the government tried to award the contract to a Helicopter service didnt go down well with natives on the Aran Islands

A large issue there was the Chopper was to fly to Galway Airport, Which is a long way away from Ros an Mhíl Port if theres a weather change and boat trip home is needed

Fritzbox · 30-11-2019 2:50pm

sdanseo wrote: »

Caravans have a higher capacity, are more sluggish, require longer runways and lack the redundancy of a second engine. They're a horrible aircraft and 10% of all Caravans built have had fatal crashes...

The figure is about 4.8%, not 10% - you may be including all the airframe losses with or without fatalities. The Islander's record doesn't seem to be much better.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/types/Cessna-208-Caravan-1/losses

Storm 10 · 01-12-2019 5:23pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

A large issue there was the Chopper was to fly to Galway Airport, Which is a long way away from Ros an Mhíl Port if theres a weather change and boat trip home is needed

From next year there will be a new service to the Aran Islands from Galway City a new high speed ferry will be arriving in the new year might dent the air travel when you get Island to City centre v Rossaveal to Galway by bus

01-12-2019 6:02pm

Fritzbox wrote: »

The figure is about 4.8%, not 10% - you may be including all the airframe losses with or without fatalities. The Islander's record doesn't seem to be much better.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/types/Cessna-208-Caravan-1/losses

I think that the Islander losses are an awful lot to do with some barely trained pilots. Read about one in the Caribbean which was flown by somebody with not even a basic PPL’s worth of hours, and hadn’t a clue how to react to failure of one of the engines. Unprofessional operations with small aircraft ruin their reputation.

The Caravan which was trialled with disaster in Connemara was overweight and flown by somebody non too professional who tried to land it downwind. The pilot’s widow, who was a business partner in the operation was sued by families/surviving injured.

Twotters are excellent but need two pilots. They operated them with one pilot for skydiving operations in Dubai on a tiny runway projection g into the sea. I watched them take off every minute or so from the nearby beach and was half tempted to try a skydive. I read about an accident since that which happened at that location when landing because the single pilot simply couldn’t have his hands in two places at once when a very strong gust of wind hit the aircraft side on during the short landing roll. Ended up tipping over the side into or nearly into the sea, fortunately no injury. The enquiry concluded that though it’s not a generally tricky aircraft, two pilots must operate this aircraft under any circumstance to avoid that scenario. In the Maldives, where the Otters are in floats, there have been several incidents of them being resurrected from sea floor and put back into operation following crashes, including a full stall from several hundred feet. Resilient birds.

10-12-2019 9:30am

Purchase Finalised:

https://www.thejournal.ie/connemara-airport-purchase-4924715-Dec2019/

Ubbquittious · 30-12-2019 1:42am

gctest50 wrote: »

Real men don't need no facilities

Fantastically remote. Be nice to go there for a nosey around in the whaling settlement

21-01-2020 12:26pm

Aer Arann sold on to Aer Nasc, a company owned by Galway Flying Club pilot Jarlath Coneely.

London Times:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/aer-arann-islands-lands-in-new-hands-vrhs6fpqs

Mid West Radio:
https://www.midwestradio.ie/index.php/news/36277-aer-arann-islands-taxi-service-sold-to-aer-nasc-for-an-undisclosed-sum

Aviation on the Aran Islands

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