Are hybrids worthwhile, or a nonsense filler technology?

adunis · 20-07-2019 7:53am

Hybrids are nothing but a cynical tax dodge holding up EV adoption and infrastructure development,the worst of both worlds as far as I'm concerned.

Shefwedfan · 20-07-2019 7:59am

adunis wrote: »

Hybrids are nothing but a cynical tax dodge holding up EV adoption and infrastructure development,the worst of both worlds as far as I'm concerned.

Why? They are better for the environment than straight combustion, cheaper to buy to BEV, no requirement for home charger which is important with current system, they are able to buy, not like bev which is constantly sold out

BEV adoption is not been held up by hybrid, if 10,000 turned around tomorrow and said they wanted to buy electric who could supply? None of the manufacturers have enough cars yet to supply a mass market swap to BEV

grogi · 20-07-2019 8:12am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It was actually a C5, estate, and I loved the big boot. I had a Ford Galaxy aswell, and loved the space it offered. However, truth be told, thats more something that i like, rather than need. I dont necessarily need a big boot, but i do enjoy having space, so although not a deal breaker, id always opt for a larger car.

No, it'd be accurate enough. Very long days, but they're only for a few days here and there.

I've had a handful of Diesel's, but I'm driving a 1.8 petrol at the moment. I have found diesel to be relentlessly unreliable. If I head DPF once more, I'll scream (despite the mileage I'm doing, DPF issues were always on the horizon).

So I pay more at the pump for petrol at the moment, but I don't have as many anxieties. In a perfect world, I'd never touch a diesel again, but that's easier said than done.

Is300h. I guarantee you won't look back.

fricatus · 20-07-2019 8:17am

adunis wrote: »

Hybrids are nothing but a cynical tax dodge holding up EV adoption and infrastructure development,the worst of both worlds as far as I'm concerned.

What a load of nonsense. They’re much cleaner than diesels in cities/heavy traffic. Also, the Toyotas at least are extremely reliable.

They’re also an excellent gateway into EV ownership, as my own example attests. When my wife got her Auris hybrid, I quickly got to like not having to change gears all the time and got over the fear of not hearing an engine when stuck at lights. It definitely fed into my decision to get an EV once the time was up on my diesel.

patspost · 20-07-2019 8:33am

Are there any plans for a Camry 5 door? If i wanted a decent sized hatch back is the Hyundai Ionic the main contender.
Dont tbink i would like a Prius.

listermint · 20-07-2019 8:43am

fricatus wrote: »

What a load of nonsense. They’re much cleaner than diesels in cities/heavy traffic. Also, the Toyotas at least are extremely reliable.

They’re also an excellent gateway into EV ownership, as my own example attests. When my wife got her Auris hybrid, I quickly got to like not having to change gears all the time and got over the fear of not hearing an engine when stuck at lights. It definitely fed into my decision to get an EV once the time was up on my diesel.

Unusual fears all the same....

And most cars have start stop it's not a ...hybrid thing.

Shefwedfan · 20-07-2019 8:50am

patspost wrote: »

Are there any plans for a Camry 5 door? If i wanted a decent sized hatch back is the Hyundai Ionic the main contender.
Dont tbink i would like a Prius.

How you mean? The Camry is available now, my mate has one

Lumen · 20-07-2019 9:05am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Hence why I was asking about the 1000km, even if they allowed me how are you able to drive 1000km in an 8 hour shift? You would have to take no break all day

Self employed people don't work 8 hour shifts.

creedp · 20-07-2019 9:53am

Lumen wrote: »

Self employed people don't work 8 hour shifts.

Many employees don't either and in reality is a minimum target. If I have to travel then so be it. Maybe if you're on the clock and get OT when you work / spend more than 8 hours in the building then it might be an issue

Lumen · 20-07-2019 10:49am

creedp wrote: »

Many employees don't either and in reality is a minimum target. If I have to travel then so be it. Maybe if you're on the clock and get OT when you work / spend more than 8 hours in the building then it might be an issue

Sure, the difference is an employer has a liability in the event of pushing its workers to a sleepy death on road, so they are more likely to enforce safe practices.

Grumpypants · 20-07-2019 11:06am

Deleted User wrote: »

Can anyone explain hybrid to me?

I'm someone who will definitely be in need of a new car within a year, and I won't buy anything til after the budget. With about 15-20k to spend (max) Mooching online, I came across a few Outlander Hybrids. I'm assuming these won't get hammered in the budget as they're seen as eco-friendly, but i am wondering, are they actually any better than just having a petrol/diesel engine.

I've an Outlander I do 40km to work and 40 home so roughly 400 a week and that is almost all on EV. I can charge in work for free so it costs me about €5-6 a week instead of €65 in petrol. So a big difference.

But i fall into a perfect distance window. If i had to drive 80km to work i'd do half on battery and half on petrol and the saving would take a hit.

The non plug in hybrids give you a saving in city driving with lots of low speed stops and starts but if most of the driving is on motorways or 100km roads then you won't see a big saving.

I moved from a diesel A4 to the Outlander so the combined saving across fuel, tax, insurance is well over 4k a year. So it will have paid for itself in just over 4 years.

adunis · 20-07-2019 1:17pm

Hopefully the budget will come down on hybrids,that will help focus people's rhoights

20-07-2019 4:09pm

josip wrote: »

Start early I'd imagine
The OP did say up to 1000km and also said somewhere 800-1000km.
But you got me curious, so I tried to come up with a 1000km round trip in Ireland.

Fairly horrendous timewise.
OP, how do you have any time to work at your locations en route?

To quickly touch up on this, without going crazy with details or getting into a high-horse 'you shouldn't drive that long' argument, I am self employed and I work taking photos of things/places. I could have 40-50 stops in a day, all across the country.

I'm effectively a glorified delivery driver with a camera. However, I am self employed so can do as I like. I don't have set rest periods or such like HGV drivers, and I need to 'make hay while the sun shines'. I can photograph during daylight, but not in darkness, so when the summer months come in, I am in the car from sunrise to sunset, and i often have a drive at the start and end of the day. My longest single, unbroken drive is 27 hours.

I am well aware of 'tiredness kills' and there are times I'm knackered and will pull in and sleep for an hour or two. I try to avoid it, but it happens. Other times I'm wide awake for the whole journey, but collapse into bed when I get home.

However, during winter months, my days are much shorter as the daylight is lesser.

I love the job and it suits me down to the ground. But I've hit 1,000km in a day on many occasions. Hence the need for a reliable motor, with 'cheap to run' being beneficial. But i also can't buy new, as I'd spend a fortune on it, and the mileage I put on it means no one would touch it. I'd lose a fortune.

josip · 20-07-2019 4:14pm

Do you use any routing software to work out the most efficient route for a set of stops?

20-07-2019 4:30pm

josip wrote: »

Do you use any routing software to work out the most efficient route for a set of stops?

Garmin have a system. Built into some of their sat navs, can't think of the name off the top of my head, but it's routeplanner or something like that. It's great.

1hnr79jr65 · 20-07-2019 4:46pm

How many KM will the battery on a HEV get typically ?

How is the charge loss on the battery overtime ?

How much to change a battery or is this required, can a top up be done with more electrolytes ?

Shefwedfan · 20-07-2019 6:31pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

To quickly touch up on this, without going crazy with details or getting into a high-horse 'you shouldn't drive that long' argument, I am self employed and I work taking photos of things/places. I could have 40-50 stops in a day, all across the country.

I'm effectively a glorified delivery driver with a camera. However, I am self employed so can do as I like. I don't have set rest periods or such like HGV drivers, and I need to 'make hay while the sun shines'. I can photograph during daylight, but not in darkness, so when the summer months come in, I am in the car from sunrise to sunset, and i often have a drive at the start and end of the day. My longest single, unbroken drive is 27 hours.

I am well aware of 'tiredness kills' and there are times I'm knackered and will pull in and sleep for an hour or two. I try to avoid it, but it happens. Other times I'm wide awake for the whole journey, but collapse into bed when I get home.

However, during winter months, my days are much shorter as the daylight is lesser.

I love the job and it suits me down to the ground. But I've hit 1,000km in a day on many occasions. Hence the need for a reliable motor, with 'cheap to run' being beneficial. But i also can't buy new, as I'd spend a fortune on it, and the mileage I put on it means no one would touch it. I'd lose a fortune.

You actually realise your a idiot but you continue you do it

The issue is you probably won’t kill yourself, you will take some poor child or family with you

I work on the road, always have, never would I do something like that, not because of me but because of the other drivers on the road.....why should someone die because of my stupidity?

Ban me if you want mods......it’s a disgrace that I have to bring my family onto the road with people like you on it, just to make a few euro.....is it worth someone else’s life in the end?

grogi · 20-07-2019 8:05pm

Sour Lemonz wrote: »

How many KM will the battery on a HEV get typically ?

Half million in our climate.

How is the charge loss on the battery overtime ?

Unless it is complete failure, the loss is completely irrelevant.

How much to change a battery or is this required, can a top up be done with more electrolytes ?

No, it cannot be done.

n97 mini · 20-07-2019 9:20pm

Midnight_EG wrote: »

My partner has a 2011 Fit, we picked it up last July. €42 fills it and she get's close to 700km to a tank with nearly no city driving. €170 tax and very little running costs makes it a no brainer. I'm considering a larger saloon hybrid because of this.

Hmm. Civic Hybrid has a 20% bigger tank (50L vs 40L) and gets closer to 36% more range. Usually around 960km between fills (44-45L).

fricatus · 20-07-2019 9:35pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm effectively a glorified delivery driver with a camera. However, I am self employed so can do as I like. I don't have set rest periods or such like HGV drivers, and I need to 'make hay while the sun shines'. I can photograph during daylight, but not in darkness, so when the summer months come in, I am in the car from sunrise to sunset, and i often have a drive at the start and end of the day. My longest single, unbroken drive is 27 hours.

I am well aware of 'tiredness kills' and there are times I'm knackered and will pull in and sleep for an hour or two. I try to avoid it, but it happens. Other times I'm wide awake for the whole journey, but collapse into bed when I get home.

Then can I suggest that you get a Tesla Model 3? It has the top NCAP safety rating. You might be glad of it one day. You’ll be forced to charge every 350 km, which might be enough time to take a life-saving nap. It has Autopilot, which might just keep you in your lane and out of mine when you nod off. And it has all the hardware for full self-driving capability. (If this is developed and approved for use by regulators, it will be rolled out via OTA software updates).

Deleted User wrote: »

However, I am self employed so can do as I like.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/donegal-farmer-who-fell-asleep-at-wheel-is-jailed-371487.html

I don’t know the law, so I’m just guessing here... if ever you are responsible for a crash, and it is shown you had a history of battling tiredness, it could be a big factor in sentencing.

Shefwedfan · 20-07-2019 9:43pm

fricatus wrote: »

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/donegal-farmer-who-fell-asleep-at-wheel-is-jailed-371487.html

I don’t know the law, so I’m just guessing here... if ever you are responsible for a crash, and it is shown you had a history of battling tiredness, it could be a big factor in sentencing.

It's dangerous driving, the guy in UK who crashed and 10 people got killed...it turned out he hadn't sleep because he was on the phone....

Mike9832 · 20-07-2019 9:59pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

You actually realise your a idiot but you continue you do it

The issue is you probably won’t kill yourself, you will take some poor child or family with you

I work on the road, always have, never would I do something like that, not because of me but because of the other drivers on the road.....why should someone die because of my stupidity?

Ban me if you want mods......it’s a disgrace that I have to bring my family onto the road with people like you on it, just to make a few euro.....is it worth someone else’s life in the end?

No need for that

Think you need a break from here, getting very aggressive lately or is that how you are in general?

Shefwedfan · 20-07-2019 10:11pm

Mike9832 wrote: »

No need for that

Think you need a break from here, getting very aggressive lately or is that how you are in general?

You don't have to comment on every single post I put on boards....

20-07-2019 10:24pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

You actually realise your a idiot but you continue you do it

blah-dee-blah. If I kill your family, you can get annoyed with me.

fricatus wrote: »

if ever you are responsible for a crash, and it is shown you had a history of battling tiredness, it could be a big factor in sentencing.

I don't have a history of battling sleep, though. I quite competently drive for long hours. I pull over when necessary.

Boards is the worst place to discuss the real world. :rolleyes:

Shefwedfan · 20-07-2019 10:33pm

Deleted User wrote: »

blah-dee-blah. If I kill your family, you can get annoyed with me.

I don't have a history of battling sleep, though. I quite competently drive for long hours. I pull over when necessary.

Boards is the worst place to discuss the real world. :rolleyes:

To quote you

Deleted User wrote: »

there are times I'm knackered and will pull in and sleep for an hour or two.

Sounds very compedent anyway

The real World is people taking responsibility for their own actions......just hope when you do crash you don't take some other poor person with you

Shefwedfan · 20-07-2019 10:40pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

blah-dee-blah. If I kill your family, you can get annoyed with me.

I don't have a history of battling sleep, though. I quite competently drive for long hours. I pull over when necessary.

Boards is the worst place to discuss the real world. :rolleyes:

Put it this way, every professional driver, truck/bus/train/tram/plane etc in the World would never do what you described in terms of distance or duration

You are clearly not a professional driver as you admitted think you know more than them.....

It is alarming you actually think what you are doing is ok

grogi · 21-07-2019 8:43am

Op, if you do such long stretches of driving, get something that is immensely quiet. It is amazing how much effect on tiredness the noise has.

21-07-2019 5:05pm

grogi wrote: »

Op, if you do such long stretches of driving, get something that is immensely quiet. It is amazing how much effect on tiredness the noise has.

That's interesting - Should it not, in theory, work the other way? A louder car would keep you awake?

Gumbo · 21-07-2019 5:49pm

Mike9832 wrote: »

No need for that

Think you need a break from here, getting very aggressive lately or is that how you are in general?

Absolutely nothing aggressive about his post.
Your post towards him is more aggressive in my opinion.

Mike9832 · 21-07-2019 6:33pm

kceire wrote: »

Absolutely nothing aggressive about his post.
Your post towards him is more aggressive in my opinion.

Idiot

Disgrace

And so on

Mine is more aggressive

Yeah

Shefwedfan · 21-07-2019 6:38pm

Mike9832 wrote: »

Idiot

Disgrace

And so on

Mine is more aggressive

Yeah

grogi · 21-07-2019 6:55pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That's interesting - Should it not, in theory, work the other way? A louder car would keep you awake?

I start to suspect you of trolling now.

n97 mini · 21-07-2019 8:36pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Put it this way, every professional driver, truck/bus/train/tram/plane etc in the World would never do what you described in terms of distance or duration

You are clearly not a professional driver as you admitted think you know more than them.....

It is alarming you actually think what you are doing is ok

Ah in fairness, the regulations are there to prevent employers abusing their driver employees.

My father in law (who wasn't a professional driver) would regularly do 8+ hours on the road, but would pull in for a snooze if it needed to. OP, like him, isn't exactly rushing to get a ferry etc.

Longest I've done in a single day was around 10 hours. But I took a rest stop of 10/15 mins every hour at a minimum. Tiredness wasn't a problem, but boredom was!

Gumbo · 21-07-2019 9:55pm

Mike9832 wrote: »

Idiot

Disgrace

And so on

Mine is more aggressive

Yeah

Yeah. Similar to the above.
The other poster that does that mileage is a disgrace. Self employed or not I’m sure he’s breaking some safety health and welfare at work act regulation.

Lumen · 21-07-2019 10:08pm

Deleted User wrote: »

That's interesting - Should it not, in theory, work the other way? A louder car would keep you awake?

After almost killing myself falling asleep at the wheel of a small hatchback a couple of decades ago, one of the measures I took was to buy a sports car, on the basis that it would be more stimulating.

This worked up to a point, and I changed my driving habits in a complementary way, being very strict about pulling over for rests when I felt even slightly tired.

The problem is that this extra stimulation (road noise, wind noise, no roof, extra steering input) is actually more fatiguing over a long journey.

In the end the final solution was to carry a stash of red bull and the car and glug two or three cans when I felt tired. This completely wiped out the tiredness and was very reliable - whereas I previously felt my driving degrade as I got tired, with the red bull I wouldn't see any degradation.

Now I'm somewhat of a special case, as I get tired after very short amounts of driving (an hour or so in the evening). There's no way I could do a job with lots of late night driving.

Based on my own experience (several decades crash free) I think tiredness is manageable even for susceptible people, but individual variation is very high. I'm sure there are people who can safely drive for long periods, the reason we have limits for professional drivers is because there is a history of co-ercing those workers into driving when tired - they are not in control, and the sheer scale of damage that an HGV driver can do is horrific.

Obvs there's no accounting for rank stupidity. I've seen concrete trucks kicking up dust drifting in an out of the hard shoulder on the M50 whilst the driver is fiddling on their smartphone. But that's for another thread....

josip · 21-07-2019 10:27pm

I can't comment on long distance driving in Ireland but when I'm driving long distances on European motorways/primary routes, I play silly games in my head with passing traffic/things en route to help remain alert. Eg.

count number of foreign reg cars to domestic cars,
spot the furthest Irish/British car from home,
set the cruise to the motorway limit in each country and count the ratio of overtakes to overtaken,
count the bridges/tunnels on the A10,
count the number of French cars 2l or over,
count the number of German manufactured cars driven by French,
count the number of French manufactured cars driven by Germans,
and countless others too stupid to mention.

1hnr79jr65 · 22-07-2019 1:07pm

grogi wrote: »

Half million in our climate.

Unless it is complete failure, the loss is completely irrelevant.

No, it cannot be done.

Cheers for answers, missed asking this though

How far can a full charge take you before ice engine kicks in ?

pdpmur · 22-07-2019 1:30pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Would I be correct in saying every hybrid has a petrol engine, and none are diesel?

There are a few hybrid diesel cars that might suit you:
HEV (non-plug-in) cars: Peugeot 508 bluehdi and Mercedes C300h
A PHEV (i.e. with plug): Mercedes E300 de
All of these are mile-munchers, so might be worth a look.

The above cars use an adblue additive to deal effectively with NOx emissions, but like all diesels they only operate effectively when warmed up so are not so great for short journeys.

Given your high annual mileage these might be worth considering. You will probably have to look to the UK to find one of these cars, but second hand prices in the UK for diesel cars are quite cheap with all the bad publicity.

Odyssey 2005 · 22-07-2019 1:40pm

pdpmur wrote: »

There are a few hybrid diesel cars that might suit you:
HEV (non-plug-in) cars: Peugeot 508 bluehdi and Mercedes C300h
A PHEV (i.e. with plug): Mercedes E300 de
All of these are mile-munchers, so might be worth a look.

The above cars use an adblue additive to deal effectively with NOx emissions, but like all diesels they only operate effectively when warmed up so are not so great for short journeys.

Given your high annual mileage these might be worth considering. You will probably have to look to the UK to find one of these cars, but second hand prices in the UK for diesel cars are quite cheap with all the bad publicity.

Dont know about the Peugeot but the E300h /diesel doesn't have adblue,at least ours doesnt.

zilog_jones · 22-07-2019 2:51pm

KCross wrote: »

If you are really doing that level of mileage diesel is the only sane choice.

Why is a diesel the only choice? The current Toyota hybrids will do 55-60 MPG easily.

Deleted User wrote: »

Would I be correct in saying every hybrid has a petrol engine, and none are diesel?

There are some diesel hybrids from the European manufacturers, but they're not very common. The diesel engine isn't well suited to this application as they take much longer to warm up to efficient operating temperatures, and hybrids mean the ICE is stopping and starting a lot. Atkinson cycle petrol engines are used in most hybrids, and are close to diesels in thermal efficiency.

Deleted User wrote: »

That's interesting - Should it not, in theory, work the other way? A louder car would keep you awake?

Fatigue is the problem. Going from a manual diesel to an automatic hybrid (with cruise control) is so much more relaxing on long journeys, in my experience.

Sour Lemonz wrote: »

How far can a full charge take you before ice engine kicks in ?

Depends on the car but somewhere in the region of 2-3 km. In reality it doesn't matter, it's not the point in a series-parallel hybrid. Trying to go out of your way to make the ICE not run as much as possible will actually lead to more fuel consumption. It's all about using both the ICE and the electric motors as efficiently as possible, not just one of them.

22-07-2019 3:03pm

Not really related to hybrids, but cruise control really reduces fatigue and noise reduction helps also, if I was doing consistently large mileage, I would look at tyres and cruise control. Im not sure that low noise tyres are low rolling resistance or not? ie as suitable for hybrids? and while I still think hybrids are a useful technology, Im holding off and not changing for as long as possible into the near future, not that I think hybrids are going to improve significantly, Im waiting for a BEV to get better, maybe I'll be waiting, but looking at ICE options out there a Quashqai or Sportage (didnt realise it was so much bigger than the quashqai until I saw two side by side recently) sized vehicle in BEV or hybrid or more options than the outlander would be ideal and a winner IMO.
(I think the Outlander is ugly and reminiscent of an old X trail)

pdpmur · 22-07-2019 4:34pm

Odyssey 2005 wrote: »

Dont know about the Peugeot but the E300h /diesel doesn't have adblue,at least ours doesnt.

Sorry, my bad, I should have referred to the C300 bluetec hybrid

kanuseeme · 22-07-2019 5:13pm

1874 wrote: »

Not really related to hybrids, but cruise control really reduces fatigue and noise reduction helps also, if I was doing consistently large mileage, I would look at tyres and cruise control. Im not sure that low noise tyres are low rolling resistance or not? ie as suitable for hybrids? and while I still think hybrids are a useful technology, Im holding off and not changing for as long as possible into the near future, not that I think hybrids are going to improve significantly, Im waiting for a BEV to get better, maybe I'll be waiting, but looking at ICE options out there a Quashqai or Sportage (didnt realise it was so much bigger than the quashqai until I saw two side by side recently) sized vehicle in BEV or hybrid or more options than the outlander would be ideal and a winner IMO.
(I think the Outlander is ugly and reminiscent of an old X trail)

There is only 5 cm difference in height between a leaf and a Quashqai.

corks finest · 12-08-2019 7:01pm

Keep the frugal insight,on my 2nd one

Odyssey 2005 · 12-08-2019 9:02pm

pdpmur wrote: »

Sorry, my bad, I should have referred to the C300 bluetec hybrid

E300 bluetech hybrid doesn't have adblue at least the 151 doesnt.

Are hybrids worthwhile, or a nonsense filler technology?

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