A Proper Famine Museum!

dRNk SAnTA · 15-11-2010 5:00am #1

First of all, I know a museum exists at Strokestown and I've never been there, I'm sure it's nice.

The Irish Famine was one of the most important events in Irish history, it's famous all across the world, it directly affected the family history of millions of Irish Americans (and other diaspora), and dramatically changed the whole country... where the f*ck is our enormous, world-class famine museum?

There would be so much interest in it, if only we made a proper effort! If done properly there's no reason it wouldn't be one of the most visited attractions in the country.

It's such and interesting story, but it's not being done justice at the moment.

MarchDub · 15-11-2010 12:13pm

dRNk SAnTA wrote: »

First of all, I know a museum exists at Strokestown and I've never been there, I'm sure it's nice.

The Irish Famine was one of the most important events in Irish history, it's famous all across the world, it directly affected the family history of millions of Irish Americans (and other diaspora), and dramatically changed the whole country... where the f*ck is our enormous, world-class famine museum?

There would be so much interest in it, if only we made a proper effort! If done properly there's no reason it wouldn't be one of the most visited attractions in the country.

It's such and interesting story, but it's not being done justice at the moment.

I agree but I think the political will does not exist at the moment for anything historical that does not fit into the agenda of a 'forward looking only' people. Don't mention the past...or only do so with a mea culpa, mea maxima culpa beating of the breast.

Irish History and any glancing back into the past seems to be frowned upon by modern day politicians whose only concern is the next financial profit IMO.

dRNk SAnTA · 15-11-2010 4:58pm

You seem to be right, why are we so reluctant to engage with our famine history? Other than a small bit in history class in school, it seems to be brushed under the carpet.

Is it because it's controversial? I mean, Irish people happily discuss and debate much more controversial topics from our more recent history.

Is it because there is some shame involved? The fact that people were so poor and helpless at the time, so much less developed than our near neighbours? I suppose it's not nice to think about.

At least it's something tourists would be interested in that isn't tacky, gimmicky rubbish.

It was an internationally important event, 1 million emigrated: it had big impacts on many other countries, I just read on a BBC page that in the 1851 census 7% of the total Scottish population was born in Ireland! "It is estimated that over 50% of the living population would have been able to claim Irish ancestry".

I know I'm talking a lot about foreigners, but for Irish people is it not something everyone should know more about? There used to be 8 million people here!

Judgement Day · 15-11-2010 5:27pm

dRNk SAnTA wrote: »

First of all, I know a museum exists at Strokestown and I've never been there, I'm sure it's nice.

The Irish Famine was one of the most important events in Irish history, it's famous all across the world, it directly affected the family history of millions of Irish Americans (and other diaspora), and dramatically changed the whole country... where the f*ck is our enormous, world-class famine museum?

There would be so much interest in it, if only we made a proper effort! If done properly there's no reason it wouldn't be one of the most visited attractions in the country.

It's such and interesting story, but it's not being done justice at the moment.

Not sure I get your point. There is indeed a Famine Museum at Strokestown House and if you have never been why do you say that we need another one. Visit it first and then post about it. I was going to give you a link to their website but it's down for maintenance. I was there years ago for a look at the house rather than the museum so I can't comment on it either but from what I hear it is very well done compared to many of the 'interpretative' centres that litter the countryside.

MarchDub · 15-11-2010 5:53pm

I was at the Strokestown Park Museum some years ago back in the 90s I think- and maybe if someone had been recently they could give a better report. I still have the book on the museum that I bought there. I really didn't think it did a good job at explaining the tragedy in terms of culpability, Westminster government failure to adequately respond to starvation etc. There was a lot about the impact of it though, especially in the Roscommon area. And from what I remember linking it all in to present day famines. We're not the only ones, sort of stuff.

But like I said - maybe if someone has been there more recently, they could add more about what it is like now.

Rented Mule · 15-11-2010 5:57pm

dRNk SAnTA wrote: »

First of all, I know a museum exists at Strokestown and I've never been there, I'm sure it's nice.

Not to be critical, but wouldn't this be a good place to start ?

dRNk SAnTA · 15-11-2010 6:31pm

Rented Mule wrote: »

Not to be critical, but wouldn't this be a good place to start ?

That's why I wasn't commenting on the quality of Strokestown.

But I don't have to go to Strokestown to know that it's not of sufficient scale to pay proper tribute to the monumental event of the Great Famine. I haven't been there, I doubt many people have been, most Irish people have probably never heard of it. It doesn't feature among the top Irish tourist attractions.

The Irish Famine deserves and requires a much more prominent exhibition, I'm don't care where that is, it can stay in Stroketown for all I care. But it deserves is enough investment to create a world class museum and memorial.

Judgement Day · 15-11-2010 8:37pm

dRNk SAnTA wrote: »

That's why I wasn't commenting on the quality of Strokestown.

But I don't have to go to Strokestown to know that it's not of sufficient scale to pay proper tribute to the monumental event of the Great Famine. I haven't been there, I doubt many people have been, most Irish people have probably never heard of it. It doesn't feature among the top Irish tourist attractions.

The Irish Famine deserves and requires a much more prominent exhibition, I'm don't care where that is, it can stay in Stroketown for all I care. But it deserves is enough investment to create a world class museum and memorial.

At the risk of antagonising you, I think the last thing Ireland needs going forward is a world class anything! World class - the buzz words of the Celtic Tiger era. It would be better to spend the money allocated for such a museum on those of us who are still living here. The country is littered with World class heritage centres, zombie hotels, housing estates, empty industrial estates, office developments, e-voting machine etc.etc There is a world class heritage centre devoted to a few rotten planks found in a bog only a few miles from Strokestown Famine Museum.

That already has tourists and natives alike pouring in. :rolleyes:
I really suggest you nip down to Strokestown and have a look for yourself if you're that interested in the Famine. Anybody who is interested is probably already well aware of its existence.

dRNk SAnTA · 15-11-2010 10:54pm

My point is that a suitable famine museum would be one of the most visited tourist attractions in the country. Strokestown isn't achieving that at the moment so something needs to be done, and either way , one the most important event in Irish history deserves a dramatic tribute.

As I was saying this subject would be of interest to huge numbers of people across the world, if it increases tourism then it pays for itself. Why are you likening the subject of the Great Famine to "a few rotten planks found in a bog", I know you were messing and I'm not trying to have a dig at you, but is everyone so jaded by the recession that they can't deal constructively with an idea without mentioning "e-voting machines"? I'm not Brian Cowen

MarchDub · 15-11-2010 11:15pm

dRNk SAnTA wrote: »

My point is that a suitable famine museum would be one of the most visited tourist attractions in the country. Strokestown isn't achieving that at the moment so something needs to be done, and either way , one the most important event in Irish history deserves a dramatic tribute.

I understand the spirit of what you are saying and agree with it. But like I said I'm not sure that there is any political will in Ireland for this - I wish there was. The Famine was a man made holocaust but who is willing to go public with this and address the issues of what lessons should be learned from it?

I have been a number of times to the Jewish Holocaust Museum in Washington and the feel is dramatically different from what I saw at Strokestown. There the message is obvious - innocent people died because of a policy that determined this. Personally I can't see this being said in Ireland about the Famine. The mea culpa crowd would object.

MarchDub · 15-11-2010 11:17pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

A There is a world class heritage centre devoted to a few rotten planks found in a bog only a few miles from Strokestown Famine Museum.

Actually I like those rotten planks!:D

brianthebard · 15-11-2010 11:26pm

dRNk SAnTA wrote: »

My point is that a suitable famine museum would be one of the most visited tourist attractions in the country. Strokestown isn't achieving that at the moment so something needs to be done, and either way , one the most important event in Irish history deserves a dramatic tribute.

How do you know Strokestown isn't achieving it at the moment? By your own admission you haven't been.

What would be a proper museum for the famine? Not sure i agree with the idea of a 'dramatic tribute' - what does that entail?

dRNk SAnTA · 16-11-2010 2:03am

brianthebard wrote: »

How do you know Strokestown isn't achieving it at the moment? By your own admission you haven't been.

What would be a proper museum for the famine?

From the beginning I happily said that I'm not having a go at Strokestown. They do what they do with limited investment. It isn't achieving the visitor numbers that an Irish Famine Museum could/should and that is my issue.

I didn't start the thread with pre-conceived notions of what the museum should entail, it's subjective. What floats my boat might not be for everyone, but I have zero doubt that with a subject that is of such interest and consequence to millions of people, a landmark museum with proper investment would be a huge draw.

Not sure i agree with the idea of a 'dramatic tribute' - what does that entail?

By "dramatic tribute" I supposed I meant an impressive museum that would educate and affect each visitor. A top notch, must-see museum. I should admit that I'm reluctant to say "Like the 'Holocaust Museum" etc. because I'm really scared of the thread turning into a flame-war about the famine.

Simply: the loss of life was tremendous, demographic change was huge, the international effects important, the underlying causes were very interesting and certainly controversial.

We need something more than we've got. It's far too low key.

brianthebard · 16-11-2010 2:40am

dRNk SAnTA wrote: »

From the beginning I happily said that I'm not having a go at Strokestown. They do what they do with limited investment. It isn't achieving the visitor numbers that an Irish Famine Museum could/should and that is my issue.

I didn't start the thread with pre-conceived notions of what the museum should entail, it's subjective. What floats my boat might not be for everyone, but I have zero doubt that with a subject that is of such interest and consequence to millions of people, a landmark museum with proper investment would be a huge draw.

How can you say its not fulfilling that role atm? Do you have visitor figures? Why do you think it should be attracting more visitors than it currently does, other than that you think the famine deserves more attention?

By "dramatic tribute" I supposed I meant an impressive museum that would educate and affect each visitor. A top notch, must-see museum. I should admit that I'm reluctant to say "Like the 'Holocaust Museum" etc. because I'm really scared of the thread turning into a flame-war about the famine.

Simply: the loss of life was tremendous, demographic change was huge, the international effects important, the underlying causes were very interesting and certainly controversial.

We need something more than we've got. It's far too low key.

WHY do we need something more than we've got? If the famine was as massive in its impact as you say then no museum can encapsulate that. And what is a new museum going to achieve that the one atm doesn't, other than being loud and brash? What's wrong with low key? Again how can you say that the present museum doesn't educate and affect each visitor?

Denerick · 16-11-2010 12:17pm

I must admit that I'm somewhat skeptical about museums in general. I'm not sure how intellectually affected I am by 'old things'. I really don't care if some bronze age woman wore that gold necklace. I would much rather know why she wore that necklace, what that said about her society etc. etc. Architecture is something else altogether as it stands the test of time and seems to contrast nicely with hideous and ugly office blocks built in the 60s. But museums??? I'd rather just read a book to be honest.

MarchDub · 16-11-2010 3:01pm

Denerick wrote: »

I must admit that I'm somewhat skeptical about museums in general. I'm not sure how intellectually affected I am by 'old things'. I really don't care if some bronze age woman wore that gold necklace. I would much rather know why she wore that necklace, what that said about her society etc. etc. Architecture is something else altogether as it stands the test of time and seems to contrast nicely with hideous and ugly office blocks built in the 60s. But museums??? I'd rather just read a book to be honest.

Yes I see your point but you really can't beat the visual impact of seeing actual artifacts. Maybe that's why I like museums. Even as a teaching tool you can't beat a visual that accompanies the words.

And also the realty is - museums keep alive the memory of the past for people who don't ever bother opening books.

dRNk SAnTA · 16-11-2010 8:53pm

brianthebard wrote: »

How can you say its not fulfilling that role atm? Do you have visitor figures? Why do you think it should be attracting more visitors than it currently does, other than that you think the famine deserves more attention?

Just to be clear, I don't have some abnormally large interest in the Irish Famine and I probably don't even know very much about it.

But as I've said before, it is my opinion that an Irish Famine Museum, with proper status and investment, would be something that would interest an awful lot of visitors, and it would certainly be one of the most-visited sites in the country. I've already written some of my reasons for why I think the subject of interest to many people.

As for visitor figures, this is the best information I could find.

[Source]
These are the most popular places for visitors in Ireland.
Based on visitor numbers for 2008. These are all destinations that charge a fee.
The number of visitors is shown next to each attraction. Figures from Failte Ireland

Guinness Storehouse 1,038,910
Dublin Zoo 932,000
Cliffs of Moher 808,310
National Aquatic Centre 706,739
Book of Kells 541,364
Dublin Castle 365,000
Blarney Castle 360,000
St Patrick’s Cathedral Dublin 345,965
Fota Wildlife Park Cork 331,062
Bunratty Castle 305,557
Kilmainham Gaol 300,828
Waterford Crystal Visitor Centre 290,000
Kilkenny Castle 256,533
Jameson Distillery 250,000
Rock of Cashel 237,732
Bru Na Boinne 236,312
Powerscourt House & Gardens 232,257
Kylemore Abbey & Garden 180,000
Christ Church Cathedral Dublin 180,000
Atlantic Edge 166,017

Strokestown doesn't feature. Will that surprise anyone here? No because everyone already knew that. So lets ask the real question: why doesn't it feature?

Is anyone here suggesting that the majority of visitors are aware of Strokestown but decide not to visit because they don't find the Irish Famine as important or interesting Bunratty/Blarney/Waterford Crystal?

I don't believe that is credible. That is why I think Strokestown is not performing properly, it's not even featuring on our cultural landscape. The subject matter is massive, incredibly interesting and personally affects millions of people overseas.

If we provided a centre that does the subject justice, then it would shoot straight into the top 8 of that list above. That is my opinion.

Marchdub, I agree with a lot of what you say, and I want to point out that even forgetting foreigners and tourists, there are many reasons to do it, for ourselves.

brianthebard · 16-11-2010 9:18pm

I think 8 of those things are in Dublin. The reason Strokestown doesn't feature seems obvious in that light. I don't agree or disagree that we should have a bigger famine museum, but at the minute the only argument you seem to have given for a new one is that it deserves a bigger monument and that the old one isn't big. WHY do we need a new one? If it were relocation for example I could see a decent argument being put forward, but I haven't seen one yet tbh.

Also, does that list only feature paid attractions for a reason? ie are free attractions purposively left off? The burren and ailwee caves for instance are hugely popular attractions but they don't feature on that list.

dRNk SAnTA · 16-11-2010 10:37pm

I didn't compile the list, I linked to the source. It's the best I could find.

I think I'm repeating myself and awful lot but to summarise: Current offering doesn't get many visitors. Subject matter deserves world-class offering. I believe a world-class museum would be of massive interest to people here and abroad. I believe it would be one of the most visited attractions in the country.

brianthebard · 16-11-2010 11:33pm

I appreciate you didn't make the list, but if its just of paying attractions then perhaps strokestown would never get on if its free? again I don't have a problm with you wanting a new museum, but I haven't heard a reason why other than it needs to be a bigger memorial than it is now.

MarchDub · 17-11-2010 12:20am

Strokestown House and Famine Museum is not free -

Amenities

Admission Prices: Adult: €8 (one attraction only); €12 - combined House, Famine Museum and Garden; Child: €5.00 (all 3 attractions); Family: €25.00 - (2 adults+4 children under 16 years); Concession: €11.00 - (all 3 attractions); (Telephone in advance for Group Rate).
Catering facilities: Yes
Audio Visual Presentation: Yes
Retail Outlet: Yes - Gift Shop and Garden Centre
Language Guides Available: Yes
Opening Months: Open All Year
Opening Times: 11.00-17.00 Daily. Tour of the house takes place at 14.30 daily.

http://www.discoverireland.com/us/ireland-things-to-see-and-do/listings/product/?fid=FI_458

rainbowtrout · 17-11-2010 12:33am

brianthebard wrote: »

I think 8 of those things are in Dublin. The reason Strokestown doesn't feature seems obvious in that light.

Totally agree. The OP says he's never been to Strokestown but we need a new/bigger/better famine museum cos hardly anyone knows the Strokestown one exists or visits it.... maybe that's something to do with the way lots of things are promoted in this country. If they're not in Dublin they don't exist or receive the exposure that attractions get in the capital.

Most of my friends had never been to Roscommon until I moved here. Many of them would not have been able to tell you how to get here either.

dRNk SAnTA · 17-11-2010 3:02am

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Totally agree. The OP says he's never been to Strokestown but we need a new/bigger/better famine museum cos hardly anyone knows the Strokestown one exists or visits it.... maybe that's something to do with the way lots of things are promoted in this country. If they're not in Dublin they don't exist or receive the exposure that attractions get in the capital.

I agree with you. Strokestown hasn't had much investment or promotion. Is Stroketown currently worth diverting from the established Blarney tourist trail for? Probably not.

Is anyone here even supporting the idea that Strokestown is currently an appropriate tribute to the biggest event in Irish history? Surely everyone agrees that it's not.

rainbowtrout · 17-11-2010 10:13am

dRNk SAnTA wrote: »

I agree with you. Strokestown hasn't had much investment or promotion. Is Stroketown currently worth diverting from the established Blarney tourist trail for? Probably not.

How do you know, you've never been there, you're just assuming it's not.

dRNk SAnTA wrote: »

Is anyone here even supporting the idea that Strokestown is currently an appropriate tribute to the biggest event in Irish history? Surely everyone agrees that it's not.

Again, you're just assuming that everyone holds the same opinion as you do although you have nothing to base it on. You can't say it's not appropriate if you haven't seen it.

Is your problem with it more that it's in Roscommon than the actual museum? Because you can't really comment on a museum and it's appropriateness if you haven't seen it. You should take a spin to Strokestown some weekend, have a look at the museum and then make a judgement.

dRNk SAnTA · 17-11-2010 6:15pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Again, you're just assuming that everyone holds the same opinion as you do although you have nothing to base it on. You can't say it's not appropriate if you haven't seen it.

Is your problem with it more that it's in Roscommon than the actual museum? Because you can't really comment on a museum and it's appropriateness if you haven't seen it. You should take a spin to Strokestown some weekend, have a look at the museum and then make a judgement.

No my problem isn't that it's in Roscommon, I've already said I don't have an opinion on where the museum should be, as long as it can attract visitors.

Nobody here has even argued with anything I've said. All anyone is giving me is 'devils advocate' positions, which is fine, but leads me to believe that people agree with my basic point.

If you disagree with something I said, then please do. I've no problem with different opinions. But like, "how do you know you haven't been there" doesn't mean I'm wrong. I'm just saying that the biggest event in Irish history deserves a museum that has investment, scale and publicity. I don't need to go to Strokestown to know that it doesn't have that.

brianthebard · 17-11-2010 11:46pm

dRNk SAnTA wrote: »

Nobody here has even argued with anything I've said. All anyone is giving me is 'devils advocate' positions, which is fine, but leads me to believe that people agree with my basic point.

I thought I argued with you, but for clarity I disagree with the idea that we need a new famine museum, that we need a bigger fancier museum, or that it was the biggest event in Ireland's history.
I don't have a problem with you having an opinion on it that runs counter to mine, but so far I haven't seen any reasons for a new museum other than that you assume the present museum isn't good enough.

dRNk SAnTA · 18-11-2010 12:15am

brianthebard wrote: »

I thought I argued with you, but for clarity I disagree with the idea that we need a new famine museum, that we need a bigger fancier museum, or that it was the biggest event in Ireland's history.
I don't have a problem with you having an opinion on it that runs counter to mine, but so far I haven't seen any reasons for a new museum other than that you assume the present museum isn't good enough.

Fair enough, I take your point. So you reckon Strokestown is as good as we need? Therefore is the current dearth of visitors a reflection of the public's lack of interest in the Irish Famine?

brianthebard · 18-11-2010 2:35am

I think if there's a lack of visitors it is probably mainly due to the location not the actual museum. I said earlier that 8 out the 20 attractions on the list you posted earlier were in dublin, that says it all. The rest as well known places that are easily accessible (even if they are in the wilderness in the case of the cliffs of moher for instance) and are relatively close to airports.
The visitor figures for St. James gate was close to or over a million wasn't it? That's due to people from outside the country visiting. I think there is plenty of interest from American tourists in the famine, a lot of their families obviously had to emigrate because of it, therefore the only reason I can see to change the current museum is to make it closer to Dublin and/or publicise it more. To move it to Dublin would also take away a lot of the importance of its situation in the countryside where people obviously suffered much more than those in the cities, so I wouldn't recommend that idea really.

A Proper Famine Museum!

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