Denied JSA due to partner

Habata · 26-11-2020 7:38pm #1

I lost my job and moved in with my partner. And have been denied jsa for that reason. Is that normal? Is there any way I can appeal? Seems very unfair. And I feel very stupid for not just saying I lived with a friend. There's no transfers between us. I'm not getting money from them. So why would I be denied jsa

SourSessions · 26-11-2020 10:33pm

Unfortunately, co-habiting is considered the same as married in terms of social welfare, ie, your partner is fully assessed for means. There's no way to appeal that.

Habata · 27-11-2020 1:29am

How do they justify it? What's the legal basis?
Seems insane. If I wasn't having sex with my housemate I would have jsa? Has anyone fought this? Legally speaking the state doesn't see us as being in a relationship.

hawthorne · 28-11-2020 6:16am

Habata wrote: »

How do they justify it? What's the legal basis?
Seems insane. If I wasn't having sex with my housemate I would have jsa? Has anyone fought this? Legally speaking the state doesn't see us as being in a relationship.

Unfortunately has been like that for years.
I do not know if anyone ever fought it.
You can be sure this regulation would not be there anymore if that person had won. It concerns so many.
To my knowledge there is nothing you can do about it.
By the way- it is not about having sex or not having sex with each other.You are living with your friend. You are cohabitating. You share the same household.
The only way out of this is moving out again.

jrosen · 28-11-2020 12:54pm

Where you on JSB?

JSA is means tested, so when you live with someone their income is taken into account.

JustAThought · 28-11-2020 1:01pm

jrosen wrote: »

Where you on JSB?

JSA is means tested, so when you live with someone their income is taken into account.

As you’d had to have provided their employer, salary,pension, PAYE etc details in the form and they would have had assumedly to give them to you presumably its a lot more that ‘flatmates’.

Habata · 28-11-2020 2:25pm

hawthorne wrote: »

Unfortunately has been like that for years.
I do not know if anyone ever fought it.
You can be sure this regulation would not be there anymore if that person had won. It concerns so many.
To my knowledge there is nothing you can do about it.
By the way- it is not about having sex or not having sex with each other.You are living with your friend. You are cohabitating. You share the same household.
The only way out of this is moving out again.

If I had a ordinary housemate their income wouldn't be taken into account right? If the finances are the same than why is who I'm sleeping with making any difference

punisher5112 · 28-11-2020 2:27pm

Habata wrote: »

If I had a ordinary housemate their income wouldn't be taken into account right? If the finances are the same than why is who I'm sleeping with making any difference

Because you are together.

If you were house sharing then that's different as you wouldn't be a couple....

Habata · 28-11-2020 5:24pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Because you are together.

If you were house sharing then that's different as you wouldn't be a couple....

If I lived with a friend i wouldn't be accessed this way.

Does it just come down to who I'm having sex with?

Because spitting rent with a friend is financially the same as splitting with a partner.

My means are no different. My partner isn't supporting me.

28-11-2020 7:01pm

Habata wrote: »

If I lived with a friend i wouldn't be accessed this way.

Does it just come down to who I'm having sex with?

Because spitting rent with a friend is financially the same as splitting with a partner.

My means are no different. My partner isn't supporting me.

You have a partner who has a decent income, the line has to drawn somewhere. If you're receiving nothing your partner would be 30k+.

This money doesn't grow on trees, it comes from taxes and shouldnt be paid to people who's partners can provide for them.

Since you're not entitled to JB, you haven't paid into the pot you're looking to draw from.
Seems perfectly fair to me to be honest.

Recliner · 28-11-2020 7:09pm

Habata wrote: »

If I lived with a friend i wouldn't be accessed this way.

Does it just come down to who I'm having sex with?

Because spitting rent with a friend is financially the same as splitting with a partner.

My means are no different. My partner isn't supporting me.

Honestly are you for real?
The powers that be don't give a toss about your sex life. They do however give a toss if you are living together as a couple.
I've house shared and co-habited. 2 completely different things. You're co-habiting.
I'm assuming that you're very young, this isn't a news flash to most people.
And I know I'll probably get a yellow card for this but it's "assessed" not "accessed".

Habata · 28-11-2020 7:25pm

gilberto_eire wrote: »

You have a partner who has a decent income, the line has to drawn somewhere. If you're receiving nothing your partner would be 30k+.

This money doesn't grow on trees, it comes from taxes and shouldnt be paid to people who's partners can provide for them.

Since you're not entitled to JB, you haven't paid into the pot you're looking to draw from.
Seems perfectly fair to me to be honest.

I've more than paid my share of taxes. This is my first time being unemployed. Thanks for your input and insight.

I can't understand how if I was sharing with someone else I would get JSA.

Habata · 28-11-2020 7:27pm

Recliner wrote: »

Honestly are you for real?
The powers that be don't give a toss about your sex life. They do however give a toss if you are living together as a couple.
I've house shared and co-habited. 2 completely different things. You're co-habiting.

JSA payment is about means. Explain to me whats different about means between sharing and co-habiting?

Smee_Again · 28-11-2020 7:28pm

Habata wrote: »

I've more than paid my share of taxes. This is my first time being unemployed.

I can't understand how if I was sharing with someone else I would get JSA. If my partner was supporting me or we had joint finances I would understand it. But this makes no sense.

Social Welfare assumes that your partner is supporting you so it makes perfect sense.

It’s really that simple.

punisher5112 · 28-11-2020 7:30pm

If you lived at home with your parents it would be exactly the same and means tested.

Habata · 28-11-2020 7:30pm

Smee_Again wrote: »

Social Welfare assumes that your partner is supporting you so it makes perfect sense.

It’s really that simple.

They've no basis for that.

Smee_Again · 28-11-2020 7:31pm

Habata wrote: »

I've more than paid my share of taxes. This is my first time being unemployed.

If this is true then why are you being means tested, surely you should be on JSB which is based on your previous contributions.

Smee_Again · 28-11-2020 7:32pm

Habata wrote: »

They've no basis for that.

Their money their rules.

rev2.0 · 28-11-2020 7:32pm

Habata wrote: »

I've more than paid my share of taxes. This is my first time being unemployed. Thanks for your input and insight.

I can't understand how if I was sharing with someone else I would get JSA. If my partner was supporting me or we had joint finances I would understand it. But this makes no sense.

If you have more than paid your fair share of taxes, and it’s your 1st time being unemployed then I’m assuming you only started to work in mid 2018 or later?? If 39 PRSI contributions are made in the relevant tax year (2018 in this case) then you would be entitled to the non means tested jobseekers benefit.

Habata · 28-11-2020 7:32pm

So couple A1 and A2, and couple B1 and B2.

A1 lives with B1, and A2 lives with B2. Everyone that's entitled to JSA gets it?

But, if A1 lives with A2, and B1 lives with B2. It's treated completely differently?

How does that make sense?

blackbox · 28-11-2020 7:35pm

Why is your partner not supporting you?

Habata · 28-11-2020 7:35pm

rev2.0 wrote: »

If you have more than paid your fair share of taxes, and it’s your 1st time being unemployed then I’m assuming you only started to work in mid 2018 or later?? If 39 PRSI contributions are made in the relevant tax year (2018 in this case) then you would be entitled to the non means tested jobseekers benefit.

no.

Habata · 28-11-2020 7:37pm

Smee_Again wrote: »

Their money their rules.

Thanks for your insight.

Morrisp · 28-11-2020 7:40pm

Habata wrote: »

They've no basis for that.

Fully agree with you

Habata · 28-11-2020 7:43pm

Is there a threshold? If two students move in after being together a week, are they co-habiting? Are they treated as a joint income?

mickdw · 28-11-2020 7:44pm

The rules are abit mad but as said, they have to draw a line somewhere. You cant have a partner of someone earning big money getting a dole payment unquestioned.
Living with a partner is very different to a house share.
You likely save on rent for a start.
Move out and get your full entitlement.
Marriage also seems terribly unfair imo.
If you have one part of a couple with good work and the other traditionally in broken employment, as single people, one would get dole if out of work. As soon as married or living together, no dole if one is out of work

Habata · 28-11-2020 7:50pm

mickdw wrote: »

The rules are abit mad but as said, they have to draw a line somewhere. You cant have a partner of someone earning big money getting a dole payment unquestioned.
Living with a partner is very different to a house share.
You likely save on rent for a start.
Move out and get your full entitlement.
Marriage also seems terribly unfair imo.
If you have one part of a couple with good work and the other traditionally in broken employment, as single people, one would get dole if out of work. As soon as married or living together, no dole if one is out of work

Marriage you can share tax credits. Huge difference.

jj880 · 28-11-2020 7:51pm

rev2.0 wrote: »

If you have more than paid your fair share of taxes, and it’s your 1st time being unemployed then I’m assuming you only started to work in mid 2018 or later?? If 39 PRSI contributions are made in the relevant tax year (2018 in this case) then you would be entitled to the non means tested jobseekers benefit.

Looking at OPs post history it seems JSB entitlement has run out and they then applied for JSA and it got denied.

OP it's a sh!t one but these are the rules. People in this forum are very helpful. They will help you clear up what your options are. Im not sure debating the injustice of the rules here will do you any good. You may want to take that up with your local politician.

Irishphotodesk · 28-11-2020 8:18pm

Smee_Again wrote: »

Social Welfare assumes that your partner is supporting you so it makes perfect sense.

It’s really that simple.

Habata wrote: »

They've no basis for that.

OP, who is paying for your rent, food, electricity bills, gas bills ?

is it
A) you ?

Your partner ?
C) the state

If your answer is B, then your partner IS supporting you, he/she may not be physically giving you money to do as you wish, but they are paying and supporting you.

jrosen · 28-11-2020 8:22pm

Rules are there to maintain some level of control. There has to be a cut off.

You have been claiming JSB for what? Approx 9 months and you have exhausted it. You are living with someone and in a relationship. Therefore there is a reasonable assumption you have support, hence the cut off. If your boyf was unemployed you would likely have qualified for JSA, if he had a low salary you would have.

But he is neither unemployed or low paid therefore it means you miss the cut off.

There is nothing unfair about it! It’s just the rules

Smee_Again · 28-11-2020 8:33pm

Habata wrote: »

Marriage you can share tax credits. Huge difference.

FWIW I think it’s unfair that cohabitating couples are treated as one for social welfare purposes but not for tax purposes.

But thems the rules.

I also know from experience that if you happen to flat share with a person of the opposite sex Intreo will make a home visit to check on the living situation.

Recliner · 28-11-2020 8:53pm

Habata wrote: »

I've more than paid my share of taxes. This is my first time being unemployed. Thanks for your input and insight.

I can't understand how if I was sharing with someone else I would get JSA.

Again, you're not sharing, you're co-habiting. For the purposes of Social Welfare, they are totally different animals.

Recliner · 28-11-2020 9:01pm

Habata wrote: »

JSA payment is about means. Explain to me whats different about means between sharing and co-habiting?

I don't have to explain.
All information is available on gov.ie
Surely you did your research before you put in a claim.
Ignorance is not a defence.

Vestiapx · 28-11-2020 9:12pm

Recliner wrote: »

I don't have to explain.
All information is available on gov.ie
Surely you did your research before you put in a claim.
Ignorance is not a defence.

I started sleeping with one of my house mates and about three months later I got a home visit from the welfare inspector, he told me that we were co habiting and asked to see the sleeping arrangements, I showed him my bedroom and the doors to the other housemates rooms and explained that everyone in the house had their own room. I then told him that I'd shagged everyone in the house and that If I was cohabiting with all of them that I wanted it in writing so I cod have it for when I grew up. That was the end of all that.

Recliner · 28-11-2020 9:13pm

Habata wrote: »

JSA payment is about means. Explain to me whats different about means between sharing and co-habiting?

Also, if you're only house sharing, then your housemates financial situation has nothing to do with you and they would not be assessed in relation to your claim.

Habata · 28-11-2020 9:14pm

Recliner wrote: »

Again, you're not sharing, you're co-habiting. For the purposes of Social Welfare, they are totally different animals.

If we break up, and everything else remains the same. Now we're sharing and I'm eligible for JSA? How does that make any sense?

Why do I pay PRSI at the same rate as single people if I'm treated differently?

Habata · 28-11-2020 9:16pm

Recliner wrote: »

I don't have to explain.
All information is available on gov.ie
Surely you did your research before you put in a claim.
Ignorance is not a defence.

a voluntary admission of living together as husband and wife or civil partners is accepted as sufficient evidence where the person makes the admission in the knowledge that his/her own entitlement will be adversely affected by it. Such admission should be obtained in writing, as far as possible in his/her own words, and the statement should be read over to him/her before being signed.

.

jrosen · 28-11-2020 9:20pm

Habata wrote: »

If we break up, and everything else remains the same. Now we're sharing and I'm eligible for JSA? How does that make any sense?

Why do I pay PRSI at the same rate as single people if I'm treated differently?

Your PRSI has gotten you months of JSB.

Habata · 28-11-2020 9:23pm

jrosen wrote: »

Your PRSI has gotten you months of JSB.

And no JSA. So why is my insurance premium the same?

Habata · 28-11-2020 9:24pm

Vestiapx wrote: »

I started sleeping with one of my house mates and about three months later I got a home visit from the welfare inspector, he told me that we were co habiting and asked to see the sleeping arrangements, I showed him my bedroom and the doors to the other housemates rooms and explained that everyone in the house had their own room. I then told him that I'd shagged everyone in the house and that If I was cohabiting with all of them that I wanted it in writing so I cod have it for when I grew up. That was the end of all that.

So the state considers people a financial unit if they have sex? Does this not seen a bit mad to anyone?

28-11-2020 9:24pm

Move out OP or get a job.
That's the options

Recliner · 28-11-2020 9:25pm

Vestiapx wrote: »

I started sleeping with one of my house mates and about three months later I got a home visit from the welfare inspector, he told me that we were co habiting and asked to see the sleeping arrangements, I showed him my bedroom and the doors to the other housemates rooms and explained that everyone in the house had their own room. I then told him that I'd shagged everyone in the house and that If I was cohabiting with all of them that I wanted it in writing so I cod have it for when I grew up. That was the end of all that.

As I've said earlier, they're not interested in your sex life. Having sex with someone doesn't constitute a relationship, nor does it mean you're co-habiting.
Someone obviously reported you, I'm assuming.
As for you growing up, we can only only hope.

28-11-2020 9:25pm

Habata wrote: »

So the state considers people a financial unit if they have sex? Does this not seen a bit mad to anyone?

Not if they have sex.
If they are cohabiting

Vestiapx · 28-11-2020 9:27pm

jrosen wrote: »

Your PRSI has gotten you months of JSB.

Ah it's strange times .

Vestiapx · 28-11-2020 9:29pm

Recliner wrote: »

As I've said earlier, they're not interested in your sex life. Having sex with someone doesn't constitute a relationship, nor does it mean you're co-habiting.
Someone obviously reported you, I'm assuming.
As for you growing up, we can only only hope.

Someone defo reported me, do you think it was a jealous 7th party. Is it possible to find out who it was

The J Stands for Jay · 28-11-2020 9:30pm

Habata wrote: »

And no JSA. So why is my insurance premium the same?

It's the same tax rate for everyone.

Car99 · 28-11-2020 9:31pm

It is strange that cohabiting is taken into consideration for social welfare payments but not for sharing tax credits. Thinking of all the cohabiting non married people in the country why has this never been an issue. I'd have thought it affects 10 of thousands of workers.

Buddy Bubs · 28-11-2020 9:32pm

The answer to your question is that cohabiting couples are deemed a financial unit because if one of them decided to give up work to be run the house they could receive the dole indefinitely. There is a threshold which the partner continuing to work must earn above and, your partner must exceed this. My mother, for example, never got benefits when not working for 20 years because my father exceeded the threshold.

um7y1h83ge06nx · 28-11-2020 9:32pm

The means testing though is a very common thing. I've been working for over 15 years but if I become unemployed I'll get my 9 months JSB then zero as my wife is earning a decent salary.

Social welfare need to have a general rule - how you and your partner deal with your finances and joint expenses doesn't interest them. And as for sex, you could be swingers involved in orgies every weekend and it doesn't matter either.

That's just the way it is for better or worse.

28-11-2020 9:35pm

Jaysus I can’t believe two days in and the OP is still fighting this.

Necro · 28-11-2020 9:37pm

Habata wrote:

And no JSA. So why is my insurance premium the same?

JSA isn't based on PRSI it's means tested, hence your partners income being taken into account. The key is in the name with social welfare payments.

Allowance means means tested.
Benefit means PRSI based.

JSB is based on PRSI and gives you a max of 9 months.

Car99 wrote:

It is strange that cohabiting is taken into consideration for social welfare payments but not for sharing tax credits. Thinking of all the cohabiting non married people in the country why has this never been an issue. I'd have thought it affects 10 of thousands of workers.

Two different departments. Revenue handles taxation, Social Protection handles social welfare payments.

Not really strange at all, means tested payments have to have some sort of threshold.

Denied JSA due to partner

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