Electric, Hydrogen & Hybrid Electric Buses in Ireland

p_haugh · 15-07-2021 4:40pm

Isn't he refueling station (which Translink are investing in) up in Antrim? Wouldn't that mean these buses would need to drive up to the north to refuel? Unless I'm missing something here.

bk · 16-07-2021 10:10am

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117615442#Comment_117615442

No, our three new buses are being refuelled at the facilities of the company who produces the Hydrogen on the Longmile Road.

Peregrine · 16-07-2021 10:36am

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117615442#Comment_117615442

Sorry, I didn't mean use theirs. Translink upped their order from 3 buses to 20 buses. They're investing in a £1.6m fuelling station which can supply over 2500kg per day and can supply a lot more than 20 buses in the future if needed.

Bus Éireann/NTA are refueling at the BOC facility in Bluebell. I don't think the location is a huge issue for a pilot but the fuelling pressure is inadequate. In the medium to long term, either BÉ or BOC need to look at an upgrade.

p_haugh · 19-07-2021 9:39am

All 3 HWDS seem to be in service today, according to the transport forum on Tapatalk

p_haugh · 19-07-2021 1:27pm

Big news today with the announcement of the Envro200EV Electric single deckers for Athlone & Dublin (presumably orbitals and/or the O route)

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/nta-signs-framework-agreement-for-up-to-200-fully-electric-buses/

Peregrine · 19-07-2021 6:05pm

The livery looks well on it. I'm not sure I like the look of that windscreen. It seems to be a unique design for the NTA.

I kinda prefer this design they use for everyone else. But anyway, that's not the important thing.

devnull · 19-07-2021 6:44pm

The design that you have linked to in the bottom picture is a standard diesel Enviro 200 MMC so not really a great comparison to be honest. That exact design isn't possible on the electric versions as it lacks the necessary gear.

These are examples of Enviro 200 EVs

In some ways, the Irish version blends the electrical equipment lump above the roof better, but it's by no means perfect at doing that. Will have to see one in the flesh to see how it turns out in reality.

The size of the section above the roof though on the TFI ones seems bigger than any other Enviro 200EV that I've seen so I assume that will translate to longer range which can only be a good thing.

The windscreen being the way it is, is to enhance visibility for drivers.

devnull · 19-07-2021 7:05pm

Just to note that the ADL press release contains a bit more useful info not in the NTA one

ADL’s body engineers have worked with their colleagues at BYD to tailor the BYD ADL Enviro200EV to the specific needs of the NTA and its operators. This has resulted in a vehicle that will be 12m long and can be specified in several configurations to suit different operational requirements, including a version with two doorways, a wheelchair space and a dedicated area for the accommodation of at least one unfolded pram, pushchair or buggy.

dublinman1990 · 19-07-2021 8:13pm

These new Enviro 200EV single deckers look so much better than the streetlites. I like them a lot. I can't wait to see them in Dublin from next year. I assume these will go to both Dublin Bus & Go-Ahead Ireland to do the new local routes for BusConnects Dublin.

john boye · 19-07-2021 9:21pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117630961#Comment_117630961

Saw one on Westmoreland St. The rear-facing seat row behind the centre door is certainly different.

bk · 23-07-2021 4:11pm

Those new Enviro200EV's look great and the new livery suits them.

I'm glad that they went with this new design for the 200EV, that attempts to hide the batteries on the roof and makes it look sleeker. The older 200EV look had the batteries exposed on the roof and didn't look great:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gcbp/27386684886

https://www.flickr.com/photos/majorcatransport/30123278684

Actually this is the third design, the first two above was the first gen design, the one directly above was an improved design, the NTA spec looks to be the latest design that is like the above one but has an extra lip to hid the battery bump.

PAD85 · 27-07-2021 11:56am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117652613#Comment_117652613

Agree with you, the NTA should have not chose the old design at all. That being said, these Enviro200EVs, along with the PA and PADs basically means that what I call "The Dennis Takeover" has officially begun. Apart from that, I look forward to seeing these new EVs in service next year.

dublinman1990 · 29-07-2021 2:23pm

There appears to be some PA's moving into Summerhill Garage in Dublin very soon. Some of the AX's in that depot have been withdrawn recently by having their DB logos removed from them. I'll take it that the 122/123 routes will be getting the PA's soon after the driver testing will be completed in Summerhill.

Also; RTÉ's Liveline had a call-in feature talking about the new NTA hybrid livery a few days ago. Joe Duffy and the caller's were saying that the new livery was 'hideous'. I read an article about it in Dublin Live a little while back. The caller's didn't like how the new livery did not keep up with the tradition of the operators liveries of Bus Eireann & Dublin Bus. I have not listened to the whole piece about it. Did any of you guys have a listen to that piece on Liveline or not?

john boye · 29-07-2021 3:34pm

I'd sooner eat my own hand than listen to Liveline.

whippet · 29-07-2021 3:42pm

is there any confirmation as to where the Hydrogen is going to be produced ? Someone mentioned to me that BOC are trucking the Hydrogen in from Germany ?

Surely we can produce our own green hydrogen in ireland

devnull · 29-07-2021 6:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117678642#Comment_117678642

There are some people who consider the importance of Dublin Bus as a company and their brand as being more important than the public transport system as a whole, so I am not surprised that there are some people who would call a phone-in about it.

bk · 29-07-2021 7:26pm

Err... I'm not sure how anyone with a knowledge of DB's history and liveries could claim that they have a "tradition of the operators liveries" when not even counting the likes of city swift and city imp, DB have had three radically different liveries over the space of 30 years, each which carried over nothing from the previous one. All Green under CIE, then mostly cream and some blue or grey, followed by the yellow and blue one the last 15 years or so!

We aren't exactly talking about the tradition of London Bus red here! 🙄

I know many of us had grown and gotten use to the DB yellow and blue livery, but when you step back, it as actually quiet ugly IMO. Kind of a sickly yellow, not very attractive and quiet dated by now. I think the new livery looks much nicer, modern and fresh and even harks back to the old CIE green livery.

In fairness I would say that there is more of an argument when it relates to BE, who in fairness to them always used some variant on red and white as far as I know.

Overall I think the new livery has largely been a success and most people seem to like it. It manages to evoke both Ireland and the environment, without being too twee about it.

PAD85, totally get what you are saying about Dennis, but unfortunately we have very few options in this market and it isn't like Wrights didn't have major issues. Hopefully the new Wrights prove to be better and we get a bit of competition back in the market here.

Peregrine · 29-07-2021 7:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679076#Comment_117679076

That's false. It's produced at the BOC electrolyser in Bluebell.

PAD85 · 30-07-2021 11:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117678642#Comment_117678642

I haven't seen it, where's the link?

UPDATE: here's the link: https://www.rte.ie/radio/radio1/clips/21986998/

Peregrine · 03-08-2021 1:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/116619477#Comment_116619477

Harris won this tender with the Higer Steed. Same as the electric buses they supplied to NPWS last year and the electric bus currently operating for TFI Local Link Laois Offaly.

The NTA is also directly leasing two electric buses for use on TFI Local Link Kerry. It's going to be a Yutong who was, I believe, the largest electric bus manufacturer until BYD took that title recently. Similar to the Harris and Higer set up, a company called Pelican imports and sells Yutong buses in the UK and Ireland.

dublinman1990 · 05-08-2021 8:35pm

Would the new Enviro 200EVs still be running alongside the Flagline bus route in Athlone?

dublinman1990 · 05-08-2021 9:05pm

One of the Dublin Bus streetlites, WS2, is getting prepped for the new NTA livery.

Peregrine · 06-08-2021 1:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117712344#Comment_117712344

The route between Golden Island and the N6? What bus do they use these days?

Only the town bus service operated by Bus Éireann would get the Enviro200EVs.

PAD85 · 12-08-2021 12:46pm

PA67 has arrived in Summerhill

PAD85 · 12-08-2021 11:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117742262#Comment_117742262

PA66 also arrived this afternoon

PAD85 · 17-09-2021 7:47pm

PAs are now in service on the 123 from today

dublinman1990 · 18-09-2021 1:01am

I've seen the PAs on the 4 in Blackrock today. They look extremely well. They really are a huge upgrade over the SGs.

PAD85 · 19-09-2021 5:05pm

PADs 104 to 107 are in Galway, according to the transport forum on Tapatalk

dublinman1990 · 19-09-2021 9:35pm

Buses Magazine has an ADL 400ER for Metrobus Liverpool on the front cover. The only difference is this bus is that it's fitted with a 2nd generation Hydrogen fuel cell engine rather than being a self charging hybrid. There are 20 buses on order for this company in the UK with delivery of them due in 2022. The 300 mile range on them is very impressive.

https://www.route-one.net/news/adl-to-build-20-enviro400fcev-hydrogen-buses-for-liverpool/

Would the NTA here go for something similar with ordering Hydrogen fuel cell buses once the hydrogen bus trial with Bus Éireann is a success?

bk · 20-09-2021 10:52am

"Would the NTA here go for something similar with ordering Hydrogen fuel cell buses once the hydrogen bus trial with Bus Éireann is a success?"

If the trial is successful and they decided to get more, I'd be shocked if ADL didn't offer it for any competition and would likely be a strong front runner.

Though I don't think they would be a replacement for the ER's, that would be the 400EV battery bus, more suited to city type services. This 400FCEV would be more suited to the BE type long distance commuter services.

PAD85 · 02-10-2021 4:21pm

According to the passenger fourm on Tapatalk, the NTA is looking at Optare electric double deck buses

Peregrine · 02-10-2021 4:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117967826#Comment_117967826

With fewer than 150 buses built, it would be the largest order for the Metrodecker EV by far. Does Optare have any presence or history in Ireland?

Do they even have the capacity to deliver an initial order of 120 buses in 18 months or so? Let alone the full 800.

It's quite a risk for the NTA.

PAD85 · 02-10-2021 5:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117967929#Comment_117967929

Possibly not, that's what I think. The build quality of the Optares are also said to be quite poor. The NTA is better off getting Enviro400EVs rather than the Metrodecker EVs.

And also to point out, just because the NTA is looking at Metrodeckers does not mean they will want to get them, as they may end up getting those E400EVs (I hope)

dublinman1990 · 02-10-2021 5:37pm

I don't think Optare is good idea for a new order of Electric buses coming in for the NTA. They are currently the least popular double deckers in the UK market at the moment. The build quality on their double deckers are said to be very poor. I think Optare are not reliable in meeting their delivery targets either to operators who have ordered new buses from them who are based across the UK. Optare were not really running to full capacity either because of Covid.

http://www.buszone.co.uk/Metrodecker.html

If I had a choice of buying an electric bus for the NTA while pulling themselves away from ADL's double deckers; they could go for something that is tried & tested already like the MCV EvoSeti if it's available.

Or maybe something like the new Beulas Jewel E EV double decker from Spain which has a range of 250 miles. This is a brand new bus that just launched for the right hand drive markets. This short 2 & half minute video shows where the batteries are stored in it's concept double decker. It does not show the inside of the bus in the video. It's just the outside only. But from a aesthetics pov; I think it is a nice looking bus to drive. I don't think the ADL have that range of mileage in their buses except in the ER's which can allow themselves to have expandable batteries when run on smaller battery packs.

Would you think the NTA would consider leasing these new buses for the Irish market to run a trial on them or would that be too much of a risk?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k5JKi80XBI

is_that_so · 02-10-2021 5:41pm

Apologies for being a little too lazy to read the whole thread but someone who is well up on these things might be able to indicate where we are at present. Apart from the three very expensive buses being trialled, are there any other plans being developed to move towards emission free public transport? And do these plans have a time scale?

Peregrine · 02-10-2021 5:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968134#Comment_117968134

In 2021, the NTA will have signed agreements to purchase up to 1000 fully electric buses (800 double decks and 200 single decks) with around 165 initial orders. 45 single decks will start delivery in early 2022 with double decks starting delivery towards the end of 2022.

is_that_so · 02-10-2021 5:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968168#Comment_117968168

So a slow start to it! One would assume they will be deployed in various public fleets. Is there anything happening on the private side, especially with respect to regulations on emissions and their need to switch?

Peregrine · 02-10-2021 6:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968194#Comment_117968194

Sorry, that should have said 165 buses ordered by the end of this year. 120 double deck and at least 45 single decks.

Athlone town buses will be converted to all electric single deck next year with orbital routes in Dublin also getting them next year. Galway is being converted to all plug-in hybrid (with battery only in a geofenced 4km section in the city centre) right now.

No, nothing on commercial services or on public coach services. The current policy focuses almost exclusively on the urban public bus fleet. A LocalLink contractor in Laois/Offaly does operate a fully electric bus. I raised it with the guys in DoT in charge of sustainable mobility policy even as a long-term policy and they weren't too keen. They're more keen on setting short term achievable goals for now. Most private operators are commuter and intercity bus operators which are much more difficult to decarbonise right now (hence the investment into researching hydrogen fuel cell vehicles as a potential pathway).

devnull · 02-10-2021 6:33pm

Whatever manufacturer and model of vehicle will end up on our streets, it will be decided by whoever wins the relevant tender at the end of the day though. That is how public procurement works, not simply placing an order with a manufacturer of choice.

Peregrine · 02-10-2021 6:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968026#Comment_117968026

They probably got tenders from ADL, Optare and Wrightbus.

It's getting quite close to order time though. In early July, Anne Graham said the order would be placed "in a month or so" which was a little surprising but, on the same week, I was told it would take two months and that a winner hadn't been chosen at that time. I haven't been paying attention since so I don't know but two months has already passed so either the agreement has been signed or it will be very soon. If people are hearing talk about Optare now, it's a little worrying but not necessarily definitive.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968116#Comment_117968116

I'd say that's an even higher risk. I don't think they're interested in trialling any more electric buses TBH. They already decided to not go ahead with the full 600 hybrid double decks a year ago and move onto full electrics so it's been almost a year since an order for double deck urban buses was placed. They should be looking for someone to supply them with a large number of full electric double decks as soon as possible to avoid having to keep older buses on and to ramp up vehicle numbers for BusConnects.

PAD85 · 02-10-2021 8:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117967826#Comment_117967826

Just found out that the NTA have actually reviewed the Optares, Enviro400EV, and a new bus from Wrights

dublinman1990 · 02-10-2021 9:01pm

Apparently Wrights have a new and improved Hydrogen double deck bus on the market which is notably more superior to the SG's.

Also all of the PA's that will be allocated to Ringsend & Phibsboro will be used on the C-Spine/52. There is an image below from Facebook to show how the PVR's will be spread over the new BusConnects routes. This PVR allocation sheet also includes the allocation of the 1 & the 120 which are meant run at Broadstone Depot in future.

The Tapatalk Forum has reported hat the PA's allocated to Phibsboro are meant to go on the 66 imminently until the C-Spine/52 is launched in late November. There is also talk that the C/Road PA's may go onto to run the 25's on the Lucan Corridor to allow the old routes switch over to the C-Spine using the Ringsend PA's from November.

Peregrine · 02-10-2021 9:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968667#Comment_117968667

That would make sense and would be in line with what I expected. ADL Enviro400EV, Wrightbus Electroliner and Optare Metrodecker EV.

The Electroliner is great on paper and I think Wrightbus' build quality has improved a lot since the rattly SGs. They really need orders for electric buses to stay in business but, if I'm honest, I'd question if Wrightbus could deliver this large order too. They lost a lot of staff.

bk · 02-10-2021 10:45pm

"Apparently Wrights have a new and improved Hydrogen double deck bus on the market which is notably more superior to the SG's."

That is great to hear, though Hydrogen buses would be for BE commuter type services, they aren't suited to DB city type services, those will be all EV.

Though if you watch the video linked about about the Spainish double decker bus, battery sizes are getting bigger and bigger, even the commuter type services might end up battery rather then hydrogen in time.

"That would make sense and would be in line with what I expected. ADL Enviro400EV, Wrightbus Electroliner and Optare Metrodecker EV."

Yes, those are the three companies that I assumed bid on a tender like this. Afterall they are the only EV double decker manufacturers, I'd be shocked if any of them didn't bid. Possibly a dark horse Chinese or mainland European manufacturer might bid too, but less likely.

Of course the NTA have to look at all valid bids, but that doesn't mean it is the one selected.

Honestly I'd be very surprised and disappointed if ADL don't win. The 400ER seems to have proven very popular with both drivers and passengers and ADL seemed to have proven that they can easily deliver large numbers of buses required without issue. The 400EV looks to be basically the same bus as the 400ER, just with the obvious drive train and battery differences, so largely the same good build quality, etc. and I'd assume ADL would have no problems in delivering the same numbers of 400EV's, which would be a major question mark if Optare and Wrights can do the same.

With ADL having delivered on the 400ER so well and having just won the single decker contract with the 200EV, I'd assume they are the strong front runner.

One question mark that it is in my mind that hasn't been raised yet, is in addition to manufacturing capacity, it is battery supply. A major advantage of the ADL bid, is that they are in a joint partnership with BYD, one the the worlds largest battery manufacturers, so they would have no problems getting batteries. Wrights and Optare on the other hand have to buy batteries in from third party companies. At the moment batteries are in extremely high demand, with many massive car companies struggling to secure sufficient supply for their EV's, thus many companies are opting to build their own battery factories. I'd be very worried about these two companies being able to secure sufficient supply for such a large order.

It will certainly be interesting to see what happens.

Peregrine · 12-10-2021 7:06pm

"165 new fully electric buses for our cities and towns, 24 hybrid-electric buses for urban PSO bus fleets" announced in Budget 2022.

The 165 is a mixture of the 45 single-deck electrics from the tender for up to 200 announced earlier in the year and 120 double-deck electrics from the tender for up to 800 which hasn't been announced yet.

The 24 further hybrids is in addition to the 280 ordered from the tender for up to 600 to meet demand until the double deck electrics arrive.

https://twitter.com/EamonRyan/status/1447947057218658305?s=20

Peregrine · 12-10-2021 7:12pm

Speaking of. Is it just me or is the legroom upstairs on the new PAs much better than the SGs or anything else in the fleet?

Edit: I think there are 41 seats upstairs in a PA vs 53 seats in an SG. Probably not 100% accurate. Four additional seats downstairs though.

john boye · 12-10-2021 7:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118010590#Comment_118010590

Yes it's much better. I assume the recessed rear upstairs has taken a row of seats out and allowed more space between seats.

dublinman1990 · 12-10-2021 8:13pm

That's great news to hear from Eamon Ryan's dept. Will the 24 additional ADL hybrid buses be going to Dublin Bus or Bus Eireann?

TranslatorPS · 13-10-2021 11:27am

I'm willing to bet that the 24 hybrids would be to cover the W4/W6 tender, which has a declared PVR of 18 attached to it.

Similarly a portion of the 81 regional buses could well be to cover the 101/133 tender, where a PVR of 27 has been specified, seeing possibly (my numbers) 34 to 37 buses allocated to it.

dublinman1990 · 26-10-2021 5:02pm

Some of the new BÉ PAL's have gone to Roxboro Garage in Limerick. They have been getting registered with Limerick plates although a lot of their new plate numbers are mixed up with new diesel cars currently being registered in Limerick.

Electric, Hydrogen & Hybrid Electric Buses in Ireland

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