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Ireland’s justice system - why is it such a joke?

2»

Comments

  • #52
    Stab*City
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,413 ✭✭✭Stab*City


    wexie wrote: »
    To be honest, I don't know, but I think the current system of sending them on their way with little more than a slap on the wrist isn't the way to go either.

    They may be non violent crimes they are not victimless crimes are they?





    So how about we think of a system where they can see that not offending is better than habitual offending?

    At the moment it seems we have a system that has little deterrent and little motivation.

    If you've no stick and no carrot how will you get the donkey to move?

    I don't think there is such a thing as a victimless crime. Someone somewhere always feels it no matter how small.

    The current system is f****d i think that's one thing we can all agree on. I think if a person has lets say 50+ convictions over a long period, never had a full time job and is a drink or drug user then they are pretty much a lost case. They will live out their days in the 'hood' trying to make ends meet legal or not. Their 50 convictions are a fraction of the actual amount of crime committed. They are beyond rehab. I know a lot of people like this.

    What we need to do is try to make sure their kids don't follow the same road. How is a mystery but we must find out. Or else its more of the same.

    Deleted User wrote: »
    A three strikes policy before mandatory extended sentence would be a sobering reality check for our habitual offenders, then again our modest legal sector would feel the pinch and that holiday home won't pay for itself.

    Prisons would be packed. Do you actually realise how many people in this country have three convictions? Do you realise how many people got 25-life in the US when they were young and never should have spent that length of time behind bars? They came out much more hardened criminals if they ever came out at all. Much to the delight of the private sector prison system.


  • #53
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    So maybe we should simply exterminate these individuals, even when there's well known issues amongst criminal populations, and early intervention might just prevent these individuals from continuing on their potential path of crime?

    But the early interventions aren't really happening though are they?

    Seems like the official policy is 'ah shure, it'll be graaand, let's try not rock the boat too much'


  • #54
    Richard Hillman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,033 ✭✭✭✭Richard Hillman


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    Maybe we need to invest heavily in our social systems to prevent some of the most common issues known amongst criminal populations.

    The worst areas are the most heavily invested in. It has been tried, it hasn't worked. Ballymun, Moyross, Darndale, Jobstown etc are still overrun with feral teenagers. They have a million "things to do" out there, more than any other areas in the country. And the educational opportunities are abused to keep the Judges happy.

    In my area we have a course where all the scrotes in the greater area do this ridiculous football course when they get in trouble with the law. They play football all day and interact with the other local scrotes. It's like the Catalina Wine Mixer for Scrotes.


  • #55
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Stab*City wrote: »
    I don't think there is such a thing as a victimless crime. Someone somewhere always feels it no matter how small.

    That's what I meant, I think overall the non violent crime that gets treated so lightly probably has a much higher economic cost to society than the violent crime. (not talking about social costs)
    Stab*City wrote: »
    The current system is f****d i think that's one thing we can all agree on. I think if a person has lets say 50+ convictions over a long period, never had a full time job and is a drink or drug user then they are pretty much a lost case. They will live out their days in the 'hood' trying to make ends meet legal or not. Their 50 convictions are a fraction of the actual amount of crime committed. He is beyond rehab. I know a lot of people like this.

    What we need to do is try to make sure their kids don't follow the same road. How is a mystery but we must find out. Or else its more of the same.

    Kinda my thinking on this really, it's a cycle and it somehow needs to be broken. It's one thing sending someone with 50+ convictions home to continue on with his (or hers) way of life, it's an entirely different thing to send them on their way and then allow them to pass their way of life onto an entirely new generation.

    I think ideally this should be done with lots of support and education, some of it might rub off on the parents. But if that proves to not be possible then maybe we need to be somewhat harsher about removing kids from their parents.

    And I understand that's not a great solution either (certainly not considering the state of the system in place at the moment). But I think if we just continue on going the way we are then we'll just keep having this discussion over and over and in the meantime the problem won't be getting smaller.

    Part of the problem of this discussion I think is that it's highly emotive and sooner or later always descends into talk of forced sterilizations and extermination and all that jazz which really doesn't help things.


  • #56
    questionmark?
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,075 ✭✭✭questionmark?


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    Would this help them with whatever complex issues that lead these individuals to the life of crime?

    And it this type of thinking that allows people with 100 convictions to still be walking the streets causing misery to good honest people.


  • #57
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,311 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    So maybe we should simply exterminate these individuals, even when there's well known issues amongst criminal populations, and early intervention might just prevent these individuals from continuing on their potential path of crime?

    You deliberately ignore my point, setting such a precedence would dissuade others from turning to a life of crime knowing the pitfalls that await them.


  • #58
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    wexie wrote: »
    What it comes down to in my opinion, is that we have neither the harsh sentences and system they seem to want to use in the US as a deterrent, nor the rehabilitative/reformative systems they use in places like Norway or Holland.

    We have the worst of both systems. :mad:

    (interesting fact, in Holland the incarceration rates are so low they have actually started importing prisoners from other countries https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-37904263)

    While I personally think that a system such as Holland or Norway have would probably more effective in the long run, I also think there is absolutely no excuse for people with 100+ convictions to be out and about in open society.

    You could argue of course that 'the system' hasn't tried reforming them...but how often does a person need to show they're not getting the message you can't behave like this?

    Reform in Norway has to be proven. Your sentence could be extended if you are not reformed.

    How would that work in Ireland?


  • #59
    irishgrover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,496 ✭✭✭irishgrover


    Slightly on/off topic...
    I recently listened to an audio book "The Secret Barrister: Stories of the Law and How It's Broke"

    First off, it applies to England and Wales, so is not directly relevent to Ireland. However it does a ver good job of highlighting the limitations of any justice system, and its dependencies on all aspects of society being appropriately funded (eg prisons, police, justice etc). It also shows the hugely negative impact of budget cuts, and politics thejustice system.
    I'd strongly recommend it as it's a real eye opener and also very entertaining.


  • #60
    irishgrover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,496 ✭✭✭irishgrover


    ***double psot****


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  • #61
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,453 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    Julien Fancy SleepwearMGS wrote: »
    I’ve said it a few times the past couple of days but a system like the US is what we need to be honest. There’s no bull**** with crimes over there. You can go down for a good number of years for things we’d get yelled at in court and sent away for over here. It honestly feels like unless you murder someone or rape a woman or child you just won’t go to prison. It’s scandalous.

    The country that has the highest prison population in the world is your go to model?

    The punishment doesn't stop people and they have very high crime rates. There are people in prison for 15 years for 3 minor offenses decades apart. Look up what happened to Arther Lee the lead singer from Love. If you think that is reasonable you live on a different planet to me.

    I never understand people who want a hard punishment system that doesn't work and proven not to work. There are other techniques that are known to work with very low repeat offending. Would you not prefer those?

    The upshot is simple do you want a system that punishes people but they repeat offend or you keep them locked up for a long time. Or do you want a system where the person stops commiting crime and spend as little time in prison?

    I personally want something that works and if it was harsh sentences I would be for it but it doesn't work. This is known


  • #62
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    Reform in Norway has to be proven. Your sentence could be extended if you are not reformed.

    How would that work in Ireland?

    What do you mean how would that work in Ireland?

    Much the same I would imagine except for the fact I don't think it, or anything like it, has ever been tried?

    Seems like the default setting here is to automatically knock 25% off the sentence to start with, does that ever get changed for bad behaviour or not engaging with prison services?

    How about we start there?

    (Maybe Omackeral will come along and tell us)


  • #63
    Julien Fancy Sleepwear
    Posts: 0 ✭ Julien Fancy Sleepwear


    judestynes wrote: »
    The US model is the last thing we need. Prison for profit with no attempt to rehabiltate inmates. The just keeps the gravy train rolling.

    I more meant less bull**** taking. Absolutely criminals need some rehabilitation but they won’t receive that by being let of the hook 100+ times in a row before finally being sent to prison. Like if my house was burglarised and I found out the culprit had 30, 40, 50+ previous convictions I’d be absolutely livid. Why are they still on the streets allowed to do things like that? They should be behind prison walls after the first conviction.


  • #64
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    wexie wrote: »
    What do you mean how would that work in Ireland?

    Much the same I would imagine except for the fact I don't think it, or anything like it, has ever been tried?

    Seems like the default setting here is to automatically knock 25% off the sentence to start with, does that ever get changed for bad behaviour or not engaging with prison services?

    How about we start there?

    (Maybe Omackeral will come along and tell us)

    My point. Knocking off should mean that people are out on license and should be jailed if in contravention of any law. Never see that.

    In Norway what I’m reading is that your sentence can be longer than the original judge mandated sentence if you are deemed unreformed. How they work that out I don’t know.


  • #65
    Stab*City
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,413 ✭✭✭Stab*City


    Julien Fancy SleepwearMGS wrote: »
    Why are they still on the streets allowed to do things like that? They should be behind prison walls after the first conviction.

    A lot of times people are sent to prison for offences like burglary. But it carries a short sentence. They wont throw away the key for a burglary offence. So once they get out what do you suggest then? Or while they are in there how do you think we should approach reintroducing them into society?


  • #66
    Stab*City
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,413 ✭✭✭Stab*City


    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    My point. Knocking off should mean that people are out on license and should be jailed if in contravention of any law. Never see that.

    In Norway what I’m reading is that your sentence can be longer than the original judge mandated sentence if you are deemed unreformed. How they work that out I don’t know.

    Maybe if its your 39th conviction they can tell you are not reformed and then add on as they see fit?


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  • #67
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    My point. Knocking off should mean that people are out on license and should be jailed if in contravention of any law. Never see that.

    In Norway what I’m reading is that your sentence can be longer than the original judge mandated sentence if you are deemed unreformed. How they work that out I don’t know.

    Social workers, psychologists, prison staff, record of actually having engaged with courses and therapies I'd guess.

    I can make heads nor tails of it here, seems committing a new crime while serving a suspended sentence makes no difference whatsoever, or at worst they now get to serve both sentences 'concurrently'....:confused:


  • #68
    neris
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,067 ✭✭✭✭neris


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    I personally want something that works and if it was harsh sentences I would be for it but it doesn't work. This is known

    The death penalty generally works very well (except when they mess up on the doses of lethal injection but it still gets the job done)


  • #69
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,453 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    neris wrote: »
    The death penalty generally works very well (except when they mess up on the doses of lethal injection but it still gets the job done)

    The death penalty works terribly. It doesn't prevent crime and people have a death sentence have to be kept separate from the rest of the prison at huge expense.
    People on the run have killed more people while trying to escape because the can't be killed twice.

    Can't see it working for petty crime either


  • #70
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    neris wrote: »
    The death penalty generally works very well (except when they mess up on the doses of lethal injection but it still gets the job done)

    Yes!!!

    There we have the solution, lets just execute everybody for their 20th conviction.
    That will definitely make society a better place and it definitely won't mean people will get more and more desperate because they literally have nothing left to loose.

    We're onto a winner here folks.


  • #71
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Richard Hillman wrote: »
    The worst areas are the most heavily invested in. It has been tried, it hasn't worked. Ballymun, Moyross, Darndale, Jobstown etc are still overrun with feral teenagers. They have a million "things to do" out there, more than any other areas in the country. And the educational opportunities are abused to keep the Judges happy.

    In my area we have a course where all the scrotes in the greater area do this ridiculous football course when they get in trouble with the law. They play football all day and interact with the other local scrotes. It's like the Catalina Wine Mixer for Scrotes.

    Can't speak for the places in Dublin, but Moyross is actually improving. It's a continual struggle though. There are far more people staying in education in impoverished parts of Limerick than there would have been 20 years ago, but because it's coming from such a low base it will take a generation or more to sort it out.


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  • #72
    JohnMc1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭JohnMc1


    Julien Fancy SleepwearMGS wrote: »
    Honestly, when chaps can cut about robbing and taking drugs left and right without ever seeing the inside of a cell bar a few hours down at the Garda barracks, why bother behaving yourself? And even if you DO manage to land in prison, you’ve got televisions and games consoles to play. “Anti suicide devices”. Is there any other country that is as soft on convicts as Ireland is?

    Margaret cash - 39 convictions no prison time served to date for example

    I’ve read articles of young lads in court with a hundred or more previous CONVICTIONS not just crimes committed & they get a suspended sentence or told to behave themselves and away with you. Are we afraid to put people in prison?

    Because our justice system [Gardai, Courts,etc] have been highjacked by activists that want to put feeling above our laws.


  • #73
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    JohnMc1 wrote: »
    Because our justice system [Gardai, Courts,etc]

    I wish people would stop calling it that


  • #74
    mariaalice
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,620 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    We don't have enough prison, the court system would need to be reformed we would need more Garda, a lot of crime is committed by people with chaotic lives and or mental health issues domestic violence etc, but mostly society does not seem to be sure what prison is supposed to do punish or reform be a deterrent?

    There was a case in the paper yesterday of a 14-year-old caught robbing a house while his mother was outside as lookout maybe it the mother who should be in jail in that case?


  • #75
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,315 ✭✭✭nthclare


    I know people from all walks of life and upbringing...

    If you're a scumbag there's no compromise...

    Nothing to do with social status.

    What they do in Southill in spade's they do in Dublin 4 in diamonds...

    Once you're a scumbag you're a scumbag.


  • #76
    Stab*City
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,413 ✭✭✭Stab*City


    nthclare wrote: »
    I know people from all walks of life and upbringing...

    If you're a scumbag there's no compromise...

    Nothing to do with social status.

    What they do in Southill in spade's they do in Dublin 4 in diamonds...

    Once you're a scumbag you're a scumbag.


    What a load of s**t.


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