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Gardai to travel on trains and buses to tackle anti social behaviour

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    #32
    john boye
    Registered Users Posts: 1,492 ✭✭✭john boye


    Corca Baiscinn wrote: »
    Not just while ON duty though, Garda could kill a lot of birds with one stone here. In Germany I believe police in uniform can travel free on P/T so gardai on the way to or from work in stations could use P/T and solve the double parking issues at Pearse and Kevin Street;)

    Then on-duty Gardai monitoring anti-social behaviour could also monitor mobile phone use in cars as some UK forces do from buses. you're up high and view is good.

    So all in all a great idea if actually implemented, just struck me I've never seen an identifiable garda on a bus or train.

    I used to see gards on buses regularly enough but I think they were usually just heading back to the station.


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    #33
    XPS_Zero
    Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭XPS_Zero


    Corca Baiscinn wrote: »
    Not just while ON duty though, Garda could kill a lot of birds with one stone here. In Germany I believe police in uniform can travel free on P/T so gardai on the way to or from work in stations could use P/T and solve the double parking issues at Pearse and Kevin Street;)

    Then on-duty Gardai monitoring anti-social behaviour could also monitor mobile phone use in cars as some UK forces do from buses. you're up high and view is good.

    So all in all a great idea if actually implemented, just struck me I've never seen an identifiable garda on a bus or train.


    Even if it's not official policy, they could do that now. All they'd have to do, even in civilian clothes, is flash their badge and they'd be waved through without a second thought. Perhaps they should be encouraged to do this.


    Nobody at IE is going to stand in their way and demand they buy a ticket.


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    #34
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    XPS_Zero wrote: »
    Even if it's not official policy, they could do that now. All they'd have to do, even in civilian clothes, is flash their badge and they'd be waved through without a second thought. Perhaps they should be encouraged to do this.


    Nobody at IE is going to stand in their way and demand they buy a ticket.

    I think maintaining a visible uniformed presence is better than a plain clothes presence as it would act as a reassurance to regaualr passengers and a deterrent to scum.


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    #35
    PhilOssophy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    XPS_Zero wrote: »
    Even if it's not official policy, they could do that now. All they'd have to do, even in civilian clothes, is flash their badge and they'd be waved through without a second thought. Perhaps they should be encouraged to do this.


    Nobody at IE is going to stand in their way and demand they buy a ticket.

    I think maintaining a visible uniformed presence is better than a plain clothes presence as it would act as a reassurance to regaualr passengers and a deterrent to scum.

    Why not have both?


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    #36
    XPS_Zero
    Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭XPS_Zero


    My thinking with plain clothes officers is that skangers are more likley to do something with them around, then get caught, an d taken out of circulation for a while.


    Whereas if they have a uniform there, they won't do anything on that train but will just get off and do something on the next one.


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    #37
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    XPS_Zero wrote: »
    My thinking with plain clothes officers is that skangers are more likley to do something with them around, then get caught, an d taken out of circulation for a while.


    Whereas if they have a uniform there, they won't do anything on that train but will just get off and do something on the next one.

    Whether you have police officers or not on board the vast majority of trips will pass off without incident. People have preconceptions and believe what they hear in th media etc. but the likelihood is nothing will happen to them despite their preconceptions. Having uniformed police officers on board will help make people feel safer while using public transport.


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    #38
    XPS_Zero
    Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭XPS_Zero


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Whether you have police officers or not on board the vast majority of trips will pass off without incident. People have preconceptions and believe what they hear in th media etc. but the likelihood is nothing will happen to them despite their preconceptions. Having uniformed police officers on board will help make people feel safer while using public transport.


    It's not just that the majority are ok, it's all at specific time slots and mostly north of Connolly station, so we should be targeting those times and places.
    They can also have a separate CCTV team watching those hot spots and a rapid response unit ready to move to a location where someone is being hassled or intimidated.


    Doing this for PR is a waste of money, the resources should be targeted where they can do the most good and we should learn from experience


    The broken windows policy / zero tolerance is mostly a statistics scam but it does get one thing right, if they get away with smaller things it makes them bolder and leads to bigger things, it's human nature to push boundaries, if we can make a big response out of it when they are intimidating people then we can make them think going further than that will get an even worse response.


    All this is possible there is just no will there to do it cos the people in charge of making these decisions at senior management and politicos are never on public transport at night in those dodgy areas.


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    #39
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Fair enough targeting specific services and areas which are known for trouble with plain clothes Gardai. I was thinking more for everyday more routine stuff I would prefer they had a uniformed presence.

    The fear of crime and anti social or nuisance behaviour is something that puts people off using public transport so having a uniformed presence would act as reassurance to those passengers and encourage them to use public transport and act as a deterrent to potential troublemakers. Remember preventing crime happening in the first place is better than bringing people to justice after the crime has been committed.


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    #40
    PhilOssophy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    Nothing wrong with having a mix of both. If you don't know who the cop is on the bus, are you likely to cut up? As somebody said above, target the known problem spots as a starting point.


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    #41
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,458 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    gozunda wrote: »

    The Gardai could regularly use public transport whilst on duty. City centre for example they can move from area to area using public transport and still maintain a presence on the street.

    I can't see that working out in practical terms though. Gardaí patrol areas based on the district they are assigned to, and in the City Centre alone Connolly Station, Tara Street, Pearse Street and Grand Canal are all in different districts so you will not have Gardaí travelling between these stations on regular patrol. You defiantly won't have Gardaí travelling from one end of the line to another on regular patrol. If they aren't specifically directed to patrol public transport between districts then it won't happen.

    Personally I think we should see a dedicated Garda unit for policing public transport services, similar to the Roads Policing Unit. If such a unit is created then their 'regular beat' could consist entirely of patrolling public transport stations and in and around stations / platforms.


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    #42
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    We already have two police forces for transport.

    1: The Airport police.

    2: The Dublin Harbour Police Force and also The Dún Laoghaire Harbour Police

    So why not a Transport Police Force?

    They would need the legal power of arrest, and require the support of the Gardai to prosecute.


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    #43
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    We already have two police forces for transport.

    1: The Airport police.

    2: The Dublin Harbour Police Force and also The Dún Laoghaire Harbour Police

    So why not a Transport Police Force?

    They would need the legal power of arrest, and require the support of the Gardai to prosecute.

    Cost I would assume would be the main reason all are very small compared to the resources that a transport police would require on the scale of the BTP for example. The harbour police in Dun Laogahire afaik are little more than glorified clampers with powers of arrest and detention which I have yet to hear of them using.

    A police force separate to Gardai would cost serious amounts of money which the state, the NTA or CIE simply do not have. It would be a wasteful duplication of Garda resources if you ask me a Garda transport unit would be cheaper to set up and have the same desired effect as a separate police force.


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    #44
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Cost I would assume would be the main reason all are very small compared to the resources that a transport police would require on the scale of the BTP for example. The harbour police in Dun Laogahire afaik are little more than glorified clampers with powers of arrest and detention which I have yet to hear of them using.

    A police force separate to Gardai would cost serious amounts of money which the state, the NTA or CIE simply do not have. It would be a wasteful duplication of Garda resources if you ask me a Garda transport unit would be cheaper to set up and have the same desired effect as a separate police force.

    If it's not an entirely separate unit they will be used for all sorts of things as manpower in other areas is needed.

    ****



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    #45
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Cost I would assume would be the main reason all are very small compared to the resources that a transport police would require on the scale of the BTP for example. The harbour police in Dun Laogahire afaik are little more than glorified clampers with powers of arrest and detention which I have yet to hear of them using.

    A police force separate to Gardai would cost serious amounts of money which the state, the NTA or CIE simply do not have. It would be a wasteful duplication of Garda resources if you ask me a Garda transport unit would be cheaper to set up and have the same desired effect as a separate police force.
    Del.Monte wrote: »
    If it's not an entirely separate unit they will be used for all sorts of things as manpower in other areas is needed.

    There is a division of the Gardai - Pads Policing - that is tasked with what it says on the side of the car. It could be similar to setup a version for Transport Policing - providing what is required to improve safety and convenience for passengers.

    It needs to be afforded/

    .


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    #46
    dashcamdanny
    Registered Users Posts: 1,920 ✭✭✭dashcamdanny


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    To stop people causing trouble on the bus surely. I think DB should deploy security at certain times on certain routes like on the Luas not for every route just the ones where there's regular trouble like the 13, 27, 40 and 77a.

    I will be honest here Stephen. I very rarely have any trouble inside the bus.

    Its the little knackers outside that are the problem. Attacked this week again with stones. As normal , teenagers in tracksuits, hoods and masks in these so call poor deprived areas that need a bus.

    What we need is more staff cars. I think the ones we have hide somewhere. Apparently they are out there doing something.

    Or just pull the buses out for at least a week. And let the community deal with its own rubbish.


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    #47
    Hal3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 818 ✭✭✭Hal3000


    Sub headline - judges to consider the stress of travelling as mitigating factor for crimes committed on public transport


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    #48
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    dashcamdanny wrote: »
    I will be honest here Stephen. I very rarely have any trouble inside the bus.

    Its the little knackers outside that are the problem. Attacked this week again with stones. As normal , teenagers in tracksuits, hoods and masks in these so call poor deprived areas that need a bus.

    What we need is more staff cars. I think the ones we have hide somewhere. Apparently they are out there doing something.

    Or just pull the buses out for at least a week. And let the community deal with its own rubbish.

    So is it rare that passengers give verbal and/or physical abuse to drivers and/or other passengers or you pick up undesirable passengers who by their actions such as taking drugs or drinking alcohol make other passengers feel uncomfortable. Not myself but I believe this makes certain passengers feel uncomfortable using public transport but then again drivers may not see this as they are focusing on the road.

    I've heard on UK based bus forums perhaps you can confirm or deny this is the case in Dublin that certain drivers are quite happy whenever a bus getting stoned as in many cases this means a trip back to the garage and often an early night off for the driver who falls victim.

    Also what do suggest staff cars do to prevent trouble surely that's the job of the Gardai not DB.


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    #49
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 15,746 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    I don't think a transport police will ever happen or a permanent improvement in existing Garda presence as long as law enforcement is funded on a shoestring.
    On the off chance that transport police are set up, you can be sure it will be an Aldi bargain bucket half arsed effort.


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    #50
    dashcamdanny
    Registered Users Posts: 1,920 ✭✭✭dashcamdanny


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    So is it rare that passengers give verbal and/or physical abuse to drivers and/or other passengers or you pick up undesirable passengers who by their actions such as taking drugs or drinking alcohol make other passengers feel uncomfortable. Not myself but I believe this makes certain passengers feel uncomfortable using public transport but then again drivers may not see this as they are focusing on the road.

    I've heard on UK based bus forums perhaps you can confirm or deny this is the case in Dublin that certain drivers are quite happy whenever a bus getting stoned as in many cases this means a trip back to the garage and often an early night off for the driver who falls victim.

    Also what do suggest staff cars do to prevent trouble surely that's the job of the Gardai not DB.

    Yes, there is drugs and lots of drink consumed . But I dont think Garda will make on bit of difference to that. Just walk down the board walk on the quays any dry day of the week. Junkies and drunks set up camp from morning to night there and not a word is said to them by passing Garda.

    I can not confirm or deny what anyone else says .
    Buses will get pulled out of an area for the night is an attack happens after 7. From my experience these attacks often happen late and on your last lap.

    Now instead of going home, you have to drop disgruntled passengers to the next stop, which could be in the middle of the bad area, and wait for a mechanic. We are not allowed to bring the bus in as the broken glass could fall on someone or something. Then there is all the paper work as well. Not to mention the danger to driver and passenger as well.
    Other drivers may be happy only because they dont have to go near these rough areas for the rest of the night if it happens to one. Could you really blame them for that?

    Staff cars are a visible deterrent and stay parked close by. They may have a Garda in them also.


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    #51
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,447 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Sad to see despite the years of warnings about anti social behaviour, the lack of punishments and reprimands for parents and instigators and the city's drug problem we end up in the inevitable slide toward what is only now being described correctly as a crisis.



    This was all said for years and the authorities did nothing, allowed the situation to get worse and now here we are.:(

    I don't have a solution because I think it's too late. The justice system is to blame and I don't see any reform there.

    There was a long winded documentary on the situation in Seattle recently. They are further down the road of the same issues Dublin has - failure to prosecute criminal and delinquent behaviour, tolerance of drug abusers, lax revolving door justice system and police not able to cope.

    It's worth a watch seeing what happens to a city when this is allowed to continue unchallenged.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpAi70WWBlw


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    #52
    kravmaga
    Registered Users Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭kravmaga


    thomasj wrote: »
    Good news.

    https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/gardai-to-travel-on-public-transport-to-tackle-anti-social-behaviour-920688.html

    Im a Dart user, Monday to Friday, have not seen one Garda patrolling the Darts.

    Sure they are already over stretched as it is, how are they going to commit to patrolling the DART system.

    My train home on Friday evening was very unpleasant, 4 skangers with base boomer and drinking cans of beer taking up 2 rows of seats, no security or Garda to be seen, this was a 6pm Dart from Pearse heading Northbound.

    The 4 skangers alighted at Howth Junction.


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    #53
    kravmaga
    Registered Users Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭kravmaga


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    I don't think a transport police will ever happen or a permanent improvement in existing Garda presence as long as law enforcement is funded on a shoestring.
    On the off chance that transport police are set up, you can be sure it will be an Aldi bargain bucket half arsed effort.

    Agreed, they just dont have the budget to stretch to a proper dedicated Transport Police like the UK.

    I have seen the odd OCS security guys patrolling in pairs from Connolly station , staying on Northbound services


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    #54
    thomasj
    Registered Users Posts: 4,785 ✭✭✭thomasj


    https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/cork-dublin-train-line-labelled-a-drug-trafficking-corridor-923819.html


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    #55
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    thomasj wrote: »
    https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/cork-dublin-train-line-labelled-a-drug-trafficking-corridor-923819.html

    We need a national conversation about the problem - think of the money that would save rather than doing anything. Perhaps the Citizens' Assembly could talk about it too...and after all that we could appoint an expensive foreign consultancy company to do a report on the situation.

    ****



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    #56
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 15,746 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    thomasj wrote: »
    https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/cork-dublin-train-line-labelled-a-drug-trafficking-corridor-923819.html

    Our "most vulnerable" who never had to pay for a ticket in their lives.


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    #57
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    In Toronto, the Transit Special Constable were employed by the Transit Commission, but the Toronto Police kept agitating to have them under their control and now they are. This is probably the best solution in Dublin too, as otherwise there is just going to be nonsense about jurisdiction all the time (as has been the case with the Airport Police in the past)


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    #58
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    dowlingm wrote: »
    In Toronto, the Transit Special Constable were employed by the Transit Commission, but the Toronto Police kept agitating to have them under their control and now they are. This is probably the best solution in Dublin too, as otherwise there is just going to be nonsense about jurisdiction all the time (as has been the case with the Airport Police in the past)

    Could the Transit Police (for want of a better name) be treated as part of the Garda Reserve? They would obviously be paid, and need to have the powers of a Garda as far as required to police the Dart/Luas/Bus. Obviously, it would make sense if they were under Garda Management.


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    #59
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,447 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Has Broombridge improved at all since they matched the Luas up there?

    I remember when I use to pass through brickings of trains were not uncommon through there a couple of years back.

    I assume given it's more "open" now it's not as bad as it was?


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    #60
    mikemac2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,926 ✭✭✭mikemac2


    Much improved and this changed even before the Luas construction


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    #61
    XPS_Zero
    Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭XPS_Zero


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Could the Transit Police (for want of a better name) be treated as part of the Garda Reserve? They would obviously be paid, and need to have the powers of a Garda as far as required to police the Dart/Luas/Bus. Obviously, it would make sense if they were under Garda Management.


    No, the Guards went ballistic when the reserve was created because they were afraid of a ''yellow pack cop'' being created that would undermine their T^C's


    From everything I've seen the GR is a gigantic waste of money. The full Guards refuse to even go out on patrol with them in most cases and they are stuck hanging around the station doing nothing useful.
    IMO they should be disbanded OR better yet trained up just gradually, as full police officers with the same pay and conditions but serve as a part time supplemental force.


    At the moment they are wasted.


    We'd need a full specialized transport police or separate transport unit.


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