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Carryarthur (Kilflyn, Limerick) and more Q's...

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  • 27-06-2012 8:00pm
    #1
    Chazz Michael Michaels
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,822 ✭✭✭


    I can't seem to locate where this place is.

    I found it on:

    http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Limerick/Kilflyn/Carryarthur/621189/

    I have been Googling and checking townland lists and no joy. Any idea?


    In addition to this, I have just started to research my family history, starting off with what I can find online and then going to the archives. I decided to focus on one area at a time, so I am chasing any information on my great-grandfather on my father's father's side. Using the census, I have found the following:

    Name: Thomas Patrick Fleming
    1901 Age: 33
    1911 Age: 47
    DOB Range: 1864-1869
    DOB Range +/- 5yrs: 1859-1874
    Marriage: 1892
    Marriage +/- 5yrs: 1887-1897
    Born: Co. Limerick
    1911 Occupation: Grocer (Cork City)
    1901 Occupation: National School Teacher (Glenville, Co. Cork)

    I +/- 5yrs on the recommendation of a John Grenham book.

    In addition, he had a son living with them in 1901 (John Francis), who wasn't with them in 1911. I believe I tracked him down in the 1911 census, living with an aunt in Croom, Co. Limerick, which leads me to believe that the family may be from there. Another clue that leads me there was found on familysearch.org:
    https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FY4G-P3T
Name: Thomas Fleming
Registration District: Croom
Event Type: MARRIAGES
Registration Quarter and Year: Jul - Sep 1891
Estimated Birth Year: 
Age (at Death): 
Mother's Maiden Name: 
Film Number: 101256
Volume Number: 5
Page Number: 129
Digital Folder Number: 4179388
Image Number: 00379
Collection: Ireland, Civil Registration Indexes, 1845-1958

    Which would fall within the above range, but it could be a coincidence.

    So, I am thinking I am ready to hit the NAI to confirm birth/marriage and hopefully get more info from those documents. What do people think?


Comments

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    #2
    shanew
    Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    the name of the townland is actually Garryarthur - see the building return. Kilflyn is the name of the DED, and in this case happens to be the name of the civil parish also.

    The Poor Law Union/ Registration District is Kilmallock

    The marriage you mentioned is a civil Index reference - so the GRO research room would be the place to go..


    Shane


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    #3
    shanew
    Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    Here's the townland on the 1st Edition OSI map - it's located very close to the border with Co. Cork, and quite close to Mitchelstown - c14km. Shane


  • Options
    #4
    shanew
    Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    a quick look at Thomas jnr .. census link for 1911..

    Fleming household - Thomas Davis. St, Cork

    married to Mary Agnes 19 years, so c1891. Parents and eldest child born Co. Limerick, from about 1897 children born in Co. Cork.

    Do you know Mary Agnes's maiden name - e.g. from a birth cert for one of the children ?

    The only possible cross-match I see that marriage reference you mention in 1891/Croom is a 'Mary Nix' ?

    The other brides on the page are Bridget McNamara, Annie Mackay & Mary Casey.


    S.


  • Options
    #5
    Chazz Michael Michaels
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,822 ✭✭✭Chazz Michael Michaels


    Thanks. The GRO it is, then.


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    #6
    shanew
    Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    might be worth starting with a birth cert for one of the children to confirm mother's maiden name - makes the search for the marriage much easier...

    I usually start with the youngest, or the one with the least common name....in this case they are all on the census with middle names, and also registered with them.. so easy to find :
    Name: William Bernard Flemming
    Registration district: Cork
    Event type: Birth
    Quarter and year: Apr-Jun 1907
    volume : 5 / Page: 77

    you can order the certs when you get to the research room with these references - €4 per cert (max 5 per person, per day)

    Not only is it cheaper and much quicker to search the index online before you go, it's far easier than browsing through the index books.


    S.


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    #7
    Chazz Michael Michaels
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,822 ✭✭✭Chazz Michael Michaels


    shanew wrote: »
    a quick look at Thomas jnr .. census link for 1911..

    Fleming household - Thomas Davis. St, Cork

    married to Mary Agnes 19 years, so c1891. Parents and eldest child born Co. Limerick, from about 1987 children born in Co. Cork.

    Do you know Mary Agnes's maiden name - e.g. from a birth cert for one of the children ?

    The only possible cross-match I see that marriage reference you mention in 1891/Croom is a 'Mary Nix' ?

    The other brides on the page are Bridget McNamara, Annie Mackay & Mary Casey.


    S.

    Interesting, as the aunt of John Francis (as mentioned above, seen in 1901 census) is an Alice Nix:

    http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Limerick/Croom/Main_Street/617584/

    Where did you get Mary Nix?


  • Options
    #8
    Chazz Michael Michaels
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,822 ✭✭✭Chazz Michael Michaels


    shanew wrote: »
    might be worth starting with a birth cert for one of the children to confirm mother's maiden name - makes the search for the marriage much easier...

    I usually start with the youngest, or the one with the least common name....in this case they are all on the census with middle names, and also registered with them.. so easy to find :
    Name: William Bernard Flemming
    Registration district: Cork
    Event type: Birth
    Quarter and year: Apr-Jun 1907
    volume : 5 / Page: 77

    you can order the certs when you get to the research room with these references - €4 per cert (max 5 per person, per day)

    Not only is it cheaper and much quicker to search the index online before you go, it's far easier than browsing through the index books.


    S.

    Where is the online index? Thanks for your help on this.


  • Options
    #9
    shanew
    Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    Index is on FamilySearch, see : BMD Index - Ireland

    To search for a possible cross-match for a marriage, search the index for possible partners (e.g. using first name only) in the same year/quarter and district and look for matches with the page & volume numbers. This is more difficult for busy districts like Cork or Dublin.

    There's also a copy of the same Index details on Ancestry, and their search provides a link that shows all the potential matches.


    S.


  • Options
    #10
    Chazz Michael Michaels
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,822 ✭✭✭Chazz Michael Michaels


    Can any read this?

    Earl Barranen?


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    #11
    shanew
    Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    what's the context ?


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    #12
    Chazz Michael Michaels
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,822 ✭✭✭Chazz Michael Michaels


    shanew wrote: »
    what's the context ?

    It was the landholder of my (currently suspected) G-G-Grandfathers house. I am just curious.


  • Options
    #13
    Chazz Michael Michaels
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,822 ✭✭✭Chazz Michael Michaels


    I probably should outline my ultimate goal. I would like to write a book on my families history, even a short one, simply for family use. To fill out the narrative, I would like to write the book thematically, i.e. writing about the local history to provide context to the information I glean about my family history. My hope is that the local history and the (probably sparse) family info will weave together to provide a fuller picture for the reader. Thus, any little piece of local information that I can find (such as the Earl), I want to collect and research.


  • Options
    #14
    shanew
    Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    hadn't come across the surname Nix before... only 60 people with the surname on the 1901 returns, nearly all born Co. Clare or Limerick.

    There are a number of extracted births and marriages for the surname on FamilySearch that might be relevant :

    Nix births

    Nix marriages

    These extracted civil collections include partial details for many, but not all, civil records up to about 1880...


    Shane


  • Options
    #15
    shanew
    Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »
    It was the landholder of my (currently suspected) G-G-Grandfathers house. I am just curious.

    so probably someone who owned some land around Croom.. he might appear in connection with an estate, or large house.

    I'll check if anything likely appears in directories....

    technically this person owned just the land... rather than the house


    S


  • Options
    #16
    Chazz Michael Michaels
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,822 ✭✭✭Chazz Michael Michaels


    Thanks Shane, I appreciate your help.


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    #17
    lottpaul
    Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭lottpaul


    Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »
    Can any read this?

    Earl Barranen?

    Earl Dunraven -- of Adare etc


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    #18
    shanew
    Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    it's a little clearer on one of the other pages.. defintely looks like Earl something, maybe Dunnaven ?

    210789.jpg

    S.


  • Options
    #19
    Chazz Michael Michaels
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,822 ✭✭✭Chazz Michael Michaels


    Looks like Dunraven, alright.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_of_Dunraven


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    #20
    shanew
    Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    The listing for Croom in Slater's 1894 has a John O'Flaherty esq. of
    Dunnaman Castle, Croom - might be him ?

    beginning to think that looks more like Dunraven... plus no mention of an Earl at Dunnaman


    Shane


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    #21
    Chazz Michael Michaels
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,822 ✭✭✭Chazz Michael Michaels


    shanew wrote: »
    The listing for Croom in Slater's 1894 has a John O'Flaherty esq. of
    Donnaman Castle, Croom - might be him ?



    Shane

    The second letter seems like a 'u', in the primary document.


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  • Options
    #22
    shanew
    Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    true - that's a typo by me (now fixed!)


    S.


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    #23
    Chazz Michael Michaels
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,822 ✭✭✭Chazz Michael Michaels


    shanew wrote: »
    true - that's a typo by me (now fixed!)


    S.

    Dunnaman seems a possibility, alright. Had a quick Google, and:

    http://www.landedestates.ie/LandedEstates/jsp/property-show.jsp?id=2576&estate_id=2408


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    #24
    shanew
    Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    If you search Griffith's using Dunraven as surname, and Croom as the civil parish nearly 140 entries show up. There probably more land held by him, but listed under middle men - or immediate Lessors.

    Dunraven property, Croom parish

    this section of the returns were published on the 9th November 1850


    S.


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    #25
    shanew
    Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    there's an O'Flaherty family at Dunnaman townland in 1901.. but no mention of any Earls, and doesn't look like much of a 'Castle'. Just 5 windows in front and between 7 and 9 rooms..

    O'Flaherty household

    the 1st edition OSI maps show the Castle 'in ruins', the later (c1890-1900) show a new building Dunnamancastle House

    think the Dunraven option is much more likely...


    S.


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    #26
    Chazz Michael Michaels
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,822 ✭✭✭Chazz Michael Michaels


    Is it possible that an Eliza Alfred have her named mispelled as Elizabeth Alford? Also, getting married at 15 in 1840?

    Can't seem to locate any other likely match...


  • Options
    #27
    Waitsian
    Registered Users Posts: 1,706 ✭✭✭Waitsian


    Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »
    Also, getting married at 15 in 1840?

    Absolutely, it happened. My ggg-grandmother married in Tralee, aged 15, in 1830.


  • Options
    #28
    Finjosh
    Registered Users Posts: 4 ✭Finjosh


    This is a relatively old post but just saw it today.

    The following is just a snippet of information relating to some of the questions raised in the posts.

    My Great Grandfather Thomas Fleming was a school teacher in Croom prior to moving his family to Glenville where he took up another teaching post as Head Master in Glenville. One of his son's John Francis (Jack - my maternal grandfather) didn't move with the rest of his family to Glenville but rather remained in Croom with his grandmother (Alice Nix) and his aunt (Cecilia). My grandfather Jack worked in the railway station in Croom and married Helene Savage who was also from Croom. My grandmother Helene died in 1962 and grandfather Jack died in 1963.

    I have quite a lot of information on the family tree (if anyone is interested) regarding my great grandfather Thomas Fleming and his great grandparents going back to 1780.

    email me if you wish you can email me at: finjosh(at)hotmail.com


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