Sound Engineering where to start?

jtsuited · 19-07-2008 10:17am

Gel wrote: »

1. If you want to become an airline pilot would you attend a course or listen to guys telling you to "take her up yourself and you'll get the hang of it!"

If airplanes weren't dangerous and the course was completely irrelevant to actually getting a job, then yes I would "take her up yourself and you'll get the hang of it!"

PaulBrewer · 19-07-2008 11:09am

Gel wrote: »

Okay, I feel obliged to respond.
I'm the owner of Poppyhill School...and proud of it!
1. If you want to become an airline pilot would you attend a course or listen to guys telling you to "take her up yourself and you'll get the hang of it!"

2. I get students every year who've been working with equipment for years and realise "I don't really know what I'm doing!" I need to learn this properly!

3. You can mess around with equipment all you want but it will take you 10 times as long to do anything properly as it would if you learn to really understand the technology!

4. When I started out I did a training course. I wouldn't have had a clue of where to start or how to start if I didn't!

5. I gave up a pensionable job to do this because I really wanted it! I've no regrets! If you really want to work in this business you can! How much do you want it!

6. I'm tired of listening to individuals saying it was a waste of time! Training to be a sound engineer is not about " Hey man! look at me, with all these light, knobs and stuff! Don't I look cool!" It's about hard work! Do you want it? then go for it and work for it!

7. Not all colleges who teach sound engineering are trying to strip you of all your cash! Like any business we have to survive and try to keep our facilities updated plus pay tutors and all that. I can only speak for Poppyhill in saying that we honestly care about our students and give them the best training we possibly can as well as the moral support they need.
That's why we've survived for almost 20 years!
To conclude...whereever you go ..go for it!!!

Good Post Gel. Nice to see a bit of passion combined with sense here! That's what I like to see. I hope we'll see more regular posts from you.

JimiTime · 19-07-2008 11:29am

I did the Ballyfermot course about 8 years ago. Excellent! I was 17 and fresh out of leaving cert. i had a band and did a little recording. It was a wealth of knowledge and help. Since I did it, the equipment etc has improved 10 fold. The course head (Larry O'Toole) is a genius when it comes to sound engineering also. I couldn't recommend it enough. A few things though:

1) Try do some independant learning first, get a little experience etc. The places are very limited on the course, and the interview will determine your entry. I'd love to go back and do it again, after acquiring the experience I have now.

2) The huge regret I have, is that I got involved in a bit of engineering snobbery when I was there. I.E. a bit of an us and them attitude to musicians. If you see this attitude, avoid it like the plague. I was 17 and foolish.

If its ur dream, follow it! Forget about jobs etc. When you take the plunge, and you're motivated, you'll find something when your finished. Its a career where you really do start at the bottom in most cases though.

Good luck,
J.

studiorat · 19-07-2008 2:31pm

I teach...
I understand the complications of running a course and to my mind there's a real issue with the price of what it costs to run a course and the value the people attending get out of it with regards to employment etc.

That said, there's always a couple of people each year who just seem to apply themselves and get the work done. These are usually successful.

I was involved in developing a course a few years back and was amazed that the college could afford to pay me and fit out a studio once they got a certain amount of students attending in the first year, about half of what we could have handled per year. They had plenty of space so that wasn't a real issue and I'm sure other courses on the campus would have subsidised insurance etc. in the first year if numbers were low...

Running courses and training is a vital part of a lot of recording studios income these day's it would seem. It used to be overnight sessions and the like, but my take on it is that that "unsigned" rate has turned into courses just as those particular customers have begun to buy their own gear as opposed to booking studio time.

To this end we also run short courses. Most of our customers are working and doing it one or two nights a week. We've structured it so you can a course for 4 or 8 weeks, then do a follow up more advanced and move along like as you feel you need to. If someones a DJ they may not need to spend time studying how microphones are made or the like...

It's more for people who are performing, DJ's, musicians etc. Personal development kind of thing... Rather than people who are directly seeking employment in the industry, I wouldn't fancy the responsibility of that!

PaulBrewer · 19-07-2008 3:54pm

JimiTime wrote: »

2) The huge regret I have, is that I got involved in a bit of engineering snobbery when I was there. I.E. a bit of an us and them attitude to musicians. If you see this attitude, avoid it like the plague. I was 17 and foolish.

I think we've all seen that at some stage. The hierarchy that seems to produce the best recorded music is Band-Producer-Engineer. That's not to devalue the engineers job, but to place it in context. I too was a Plum at 17!

Gel · 19-07-2008 4:01pm

Okay just a few clear points...

1. There IS work in the industry. If there wasn't it would be a very quiet world!! Why do you want to learn Sound Engineering? Probably because you saw someone else WORKING at it! It's not easy and you won't become rich and you may not get exactly the kind of job you want but it sure beats a lot of other options out there!

2. Why would anyone who is passionate about something not want to do a course to learn it. If you're concerned about the cost, then you probably aren't passionate enough to get somewhere! I would have sold my Granny to do a course when I was starting out!

3. There seems to be a feeling that colleges are a rip off! I'm not going to criticize or defend other colleges but I can tell you straight. Our school needs every penny it gets! We have never received a penny in funding like some of the VECs and it's taken 20 years of hard work and dedication to get our school to where it is. Our students are our lifeline! Sure we charge quite a bit but we give back every cent's worth in dedication to our students. We would be very silly not to because without them we're finished!

4. To say that doing a course is irrelevant to getting work is crazy! To have a qualification in your hand proves that you were/are willing to put the effort in. It's not a certificate of expertise, that only comes with experience. It's a certificate of a genuine will to succeed!
Incidentally we have an opening here at Poppyhill for a Tutor in Sound Engineering & Music Technology and guess what...It's a distinct advantage to have a certified qualification. Pro Tools certification is also required.
If anyone is interested please email info@poppyschool.com
So there you go, that's one job going anyway!

5. The kind of Certificate/Diploma you hold is not really that important. What is important is what you put into and learned from the course.
I would say however that in my honest opinion City & Guilds or the National Diploma have an advantage over Fetac in that they will be better known outside of Ireland. Content wise I would consider a Fetac course to be roughly equivalent to a City & Guilds level 1.
I would also draw a clear distinction between courses offered in Music Technology in Universities and Music Technology courses offered in colleges like our own. The University courses tend to be very academic and focus a lot on the experimental/R&D side and tend to push their students towards careers in that field. That's not to say they're not good courses but they are different.

6. Finally I reckon you are much more likely to get a good education from a private college specializing in one area than a college running a hundred different courses. After all you're probably making a sizable contribution to their overall income and they need you to endorse their training if they want to survive. In a big college if the sound training/music tech course is crap, they've always got science, business etc. etc. etc.!

Okay, I've waffled on a bit and just to point out that none of my comments are directed towards any particular establishment and are simply my opinions.

studiorat · 19-07-2008 8:19pm

A college cert does indeed prove at least an interest in the game, after spending a year or two in college it might be safe to say a prospective employee may stay in the job after being trained it etc. Studios for one are very careful when employing someone as an assistant. It can be a real pain to train in someone and then have them leave because they don't like the hours. It probably takes a two or three months to get someone to this level.

However some still prefer to train in people themselves. Starting off just as a runner and then leaving them as assistant on a session with an engineer who knows the studio well and so on. Most people can pick it up by watching others, it's not exactly hard to do. The hardest lesson in this situation is probably that if you don't know how to do something say so, it's no big deal. You'll be shown how to, and people won't have a problem with it. Also, no one wants to employ someone who thinks because they have done a course they are Bob Clearmountain either, you'll get that too from time to time.

Unbelievable as it may seem I've seen guys with jobs in studios leave to return to college to finish their certificate, believing the piece of paper is important. Where they got this mentality from I just don't know. You'll learn more sitting in a control room assisting on a session than a month in any college, as we all know engineers just love to pontificate on technique and how things should be done.

My advice would be try and get in somewhere, working for free if necessary, anywhere! And if that doesn't work out I'd then start thinking about a course.

sinjin_smythe · 21-07-2008 2:01pm

well since my post i have applied for a trainee position with a well know studio in dublin city (previous experience not essential). So im praying that i will show them how much i want this at the interview casue thats all i got right now. Thanks for everything, you have all shown me alot more then i knew. Thanks

PaulBrewer · 21-07-2008 2:23pm

weedhead wrote: »

well since my post i have applied for a trainee position with a well know studio in dublin city (previous experience not essential). So im praying that i will show them how much i want this at the interview casue thats all i got right now. Thanks for everything, you have all shown me alot more then i knew. Thanks

Best of Luck Squire!

dav nagle · 21-07-2008 6:47pm

weedhead wrote: »

well since my post i have applied for a trainee position with a well know studio in dublin city (previous experience not essential). So im praying that i will show them how much i want this at the interview casue thats all i got right now. Thanks for everything, you have all shown me alot more then i knew. Thanks

Beacon studios by any chance ?

sinjin_smythe · 21-07-2008 11:24pm

dav nagle wrote: »

Beacon studios by any chance ?

well yeah actually, nice guess.

dav nagle · 21-07-2008 11:37pm

weedhead wrote: »

well yeah actually, nice guess.

Best of luck

Niall - Dahlia · 22-07-2008 1:00am

I think if you're determined to get into the business it doesn't matter which route you take, you'll get there in the end if you have the motivation and passion for it.

But anyway, seeing as it's late and I'm bored, here's a bit of an alternative suggestion on "where to start". Nobody has really mentioned it but I seriously considered doing something like this about 2 years ago but my balls weren't big enough.

First off, get your hands on a cheap mBox, the 101/110 course book and a good sound engineering book (something like Sound and Recording, Rumsey). Get your PT chops up to speed and study the book back to front for a couple months, alongside your EQ, comps and gates etc in Pro Tools. Read the audio forums, magazines etc. Just absorb every ounce of information you can (and there's alot on the net, if you can wade through the ****, like possibly this post!)

When you feel you're ready and you're itching to get going, use the 5 grand to book yourself into a decent studio (with yourself as engineer) for as many days as possible. 5 grand will get you over 10 days, probably nearer 20 if you chat to the owner. That might not sound like alot, but that's 150-200 hours of pure studio time, one session a week. Hook up with somebody with a similar interest who's willing to go halves and it's double that. I reckon I got about 8 hours in a studio with a band in the course I did...and that was shared with 6 other students...

Get the equipment list for the studio you've just made your new home, and study them cover to cover. Mics, desk, outboard, everything.

Your first day or two just go in on your own. Mess around with the desk, getting signals in and out, foldback, patch bay etc. Get some signals sent all around the place and into Pro Tools (you're already a whiz at that). You might be lucky enough to have somebody in the studio to show you anything you're not familiar with (ie everything, it's his lucky day). Try out the black chair and a bit of posing at the desk. Take a **** load of notes and photos (of the equipment, not of you pretending you're mixing). Study them when you get home for a week.

The next week you go in with a friend who wants to record a few acoustic songs. Simple ****, acoustic and vocals. Again take a **** load of notes. Once you've cracked that, the next week you bring in a friend's band, who are relaxed and realise they might not get anything at the end of the day other than a day posing infront of a mic. You might completely cock it up, but you'll be learning faster than anybody sat infront of a blackboard talking about polar patterns (but you know all that **** anyway from the book you studied)

By your 5th or 6th session you're dealing with bands you don't know, who expect something at the end of the day. But hey, **** them, it's free, you're just there to learn! You bring in a hard drive and bring all the files home to mix all week long.

By the 10th session you're choosing which mic to use based on sound rather than what somebody told you to use on an internet forum, patching in compressors and concentrating on getting a good sound. Your last few sessions you might even be charging the bands a few quid to help pay the studio fee.

By the end of it all you've got 1. A portfolio CD of the best tracks you recorded 2. A solid understanding of all the key elements in a studio 3. A bit of experience with dealing with bands and egos 4. Possibly some contact with a future employer ie the studio owner, whos studio you can now run better than him!

Sounds easy, eh?

studiorat · 22-07-2008 1:12am

weedhead wrote: »

well since my post i have applied for a trainee position with a well know studio in dublin city (previous experience not essential). So im praying that i will show them how much i want this at the interview casue thats all i got right now. Thanks for everything, you have all shown me alot more then i knew. Thanks

get in there!!!!
Anything we can do to help, just holler!

jimi_t · 22-07-2008 2:27pm

jimi_t wrote: »

As an aside, hands up (no teachers or tutors please) who did a city and guilds and is making at least 400 quid a week in any aspect of the industry? I mean its obviously not all about the money if you love what you're doing, but you honestly would want to make 400 a week otherwise you're as well off doing it on the side and claiming the bloody dole.

Just wanted to bump this again. Anyone?

PaulBrewer · 22-07-2008 3:47pm

I didn't and make more than that if that's any good! :pac:

4k · 06-08-2008 2:24am

this is a great thread guys, i've really enjoyed reading it. so much so that i actually joined the forum after viewing for years. i agree with all of the advise, even if some of it is contradictory. good job.

one thing i dont get though is where people find information about sound engineering online. for instance the assistant engineer jobs or any jobs for that matter! i've searched and searched and can never find anything. the only jobs i get are by asking every engineer i meet to give me advise. i can never find anything online. but hey, it has been said, it is hard work and one does have to be hardcore to progress in this business.

alphasounds · 06-08-2008 9:31am

I do sound courses for 250 e 12 hrs.
In Tramore
Thor

studiorat · 06-08-2008 11:10am

4k wrote: »

this is a great thread guys, i've really enjoyed reading it. so much so that i actually joined the forum after viewing for years. i agree with all of the advise, even if some of it is contradictory. good job.

one thing i dont get though is where people find information about sound engineering online. for instance the assistant engineer jobs or any jobs for that matter! i've searched and searched and can never find anything. the only jobs i get are by asking every engineer i meet to give me advise. i can never find anything online. but hey, it has been said, it is hard work and one does have to be hardcore to progress in this business.

UK music Jobs .com is a good place to start. These jobs aren't usually advertised so it's usually better to just keep in contact with the various employers from time to time. Get to know them and them know you...

TowlieMcD · 02-10-2008 7:56pm

Hello everyone, i've been reading through this forum and its been really interesting. I'm 16 and i'm contemplating becoming a sound engineer. It looks to me (from what i've been reading) that its difficult to get a job in this industry. I live been looking at different colleges like Pulse Recordijng College and Sound Training Centre of Ireland. I'm not 100% sure which one of them would be the best. Maybe some of you can enlighten me. it doesn't have to be them either. Whichever college ye feel is up to a high standard. I'm a musician(traditional Irish music) but i'd be more interested into sound engineering in other types of music. Do you need to have certain points from the leaving cert? I have no experience in a recording studio but like music and would love to work in a recording studio or be an audio engineer for video games or something along those lines. Also what is the pay like?:)

dav nagle · 02-10-2008 9:11pm

TowlieMcD wrote: »

Hello everyone, i've been reading through this forum and its been really interesting. I'm 16 and i'm contemplating becoming a sound engineer. It looks to me (from what i've been reading) that its difficult to get a job in this industry. I live been looking at different colleges like Pulse Recordijng College and Sound Training Centre of Ireland. I'm not 100% sure which one of them would be the best. Maybe some of you can enlighten me. it doesn't have to be them either. Whichever college ye feel is up to a high standard. I'm a musician(traditional Irish music) but i'd be more interested into sound engineering in other types of music. Do you need to have certain points from the leaving cert? I have no experience in a recording studio but like music and would love to work in a recording studio or be an audio engineer for video games or something along those lines. Also what is the pay like?:)

I cant advise other than the fact that I have been working from home studio for the last 5 years and in Jan I am going pro so what I'll say is you need to build up experience by getting in touch with venues and asking can you sit in on live gigs and studio sessions. Then get some of your own gear and record people. You would be amazed at how many different things there is to think of especially at first with so many different instruments and expectations. You are a young fella so best go to college and get a degree as back up, you may work in television or radio.

grandslamsmith · 19-01-2010 2:25pm

Ok - that all said - I'll take it a stage further:

I'm 36
Recording all my own material
Thinking about a career change from a solid job paying over 60K a year
Looking at Sound production/engineering
Am I nuts

Ta

Slammer

Seziertisch · 19-01-2010 2:38pm

Yeah.

If you were to get trained and enter the market as a freelance sound engineer there is no guarantee of there being any work for you. The freelance studio/live sound game is real hand to mouth stuff.

If you were to open a studio there would also be nothing guaranteed; you would have to have the cash to keep things afloat at least as long as it took to establish yourself and get some sort of regular clientele, and even then there is no guarantee that you would ever get it up and running and paying for itself. Too many variables to say for sure. How good are your production skills? How good are your people skills? How good is your business sense? What could you offer that isn't already being offered by the many studios in town? etc.

Savman · 19-01-2010 2:44pm

Seziertisch wrote: »

Yeah.

+1

rozwoldo · 19-01-2010 3:00pm

Thought so!

Thanks lads - saved my €4K there!!

Slammer

http://soundcloud.com/grand-slam-smith

PaulBrewer · 19-01-2010 3:11pm

grandslamsmith wrote: »

Ok - that all said - I'll take it a stage further:

I'm 36
Recording all my own material
Thinking about a career change from a solid job paying over 60K a year
Looking at Sound production/engineering
Am I nuts

Ta

Slammer

Depends how attached you are to your lifestyle really . I'd guess the number of engineers earning 60k in Ireland you could count on one hand and maybe half a hand!
If your lifestyle doesn't cost 60k then perhaps youre in a position to fast track yourself by throwing a few grand at a course .
What is a fascinating day in the studio for some guys is hell on earth for others !

If you're very talented you'll do well.

One of the good things about the music biz is it's a meritocracy (mostly!) cream does go to t.... London/LA !

PMI · 19-01-2010 3:18pm

jimi_t wrote: »

Just wanted to bump this again. Anyone?

Hey Jimi........ ME

I did a City & Guilds back in 1991 ish when you had 180 applicants and 10 places in Westminster College and you had to already have a good bit of knowledge going into it but it was to become an engineer... not like today get a title to impress the girls down the pub and be able to be called a producer

I got C&G 182 parts 1,2 & 3 and got into a top london studio and worked with some **** hot producers, writers and engineers but worked my ass off before, during and after the event...

Now I think the colleges are flooded with young guys thinking they can do it, and its gonna be sooooooooo cool...believe me I meet them all the time

I think your right that a city and guilds wouldnt help now at all, but when I was 17-18 and standing in front of the studio managers at interviews for Strongroom, Sarm West and Red Bus it did matter I guess like everything times are a changing

P.S. 400 is expences & drink money....

krd · 19-01-2010 6:56pm

grandslamsmith wrote: »

Ok - that all said - I'll take it a stage further:

I'm 36
Recording all my own material
Thinking about a career change from a solid job paying over 60K a year
Looking at Sound production/engineering
Am I nuts

Ta

Slammer

You are out of your God damn mind.

However - with your resources you should be able to kit yourself out with some nice stuff. And you could probably get private tuition on specifics you need.

I did a short course before - and I learned nothing from it - so I doubled my sum of knowledge.

But there can be a real value in getting someone who knows what they're doing to show you something in a night or few days, that might take you years to stumble on. (It's a real pain in the arse to hit a button with your elbow and realise "Ah, so that's how that's done")

If you're broke - you won't be able afford ****

I would make a brutal engineer. I mess up my own stuff all the time, because I can't hear a simple but crucial mistakes until it's too late.

But if I was earning you're cash - I would hire people to help me. A skilled experienced ear can probably spot and precisely fix something really fast.

PaulBrewer · 19-01-2010 7:02pm

krd wrote: »

You are out of your God damn mind.

However - with your resources you should be able to kit yourself out with some nice stuff. And you could probably get private tuition on specifics you need.

I did a short course before - and I learned nothing from it - so I doubled my sum of knowledge.

But there can be a real value in getting someone who knows what they're doing to show you something in a night or few days, that might take you years to stumble on. (It's a real pain in the arse to hit a button with your elbow and realise "Ah, so that's how that's done")

If you're broke - you won't be able afford ****

I would make a brutal engineer. I mess up my own stuff all the time, because I can't hear a simple but crucial mistakes until it's too late.

But if I was earning you're cash - I would hire people to help me. A skilled experienced ear can probably spot and precisely fix something really fast.

.

krd · 19-01-2010 7:24pm

Seziertisch wrote: »

Yeah.

If you were to get trained and enter the market as a freelance sound engineer there is no guarantee of there being any work for you. The freelance studio/live sound game is real hand to mouth stuff.

If you were to open a studio there would also be nothing guaranteed; you would have to have the cash to keep things afloat at least as long as it took to establish yourself and get some sort of regular clientele, and even then there is no guarantee that you would ever get it up and running and paying for itself. Too many variables to say for sure. How good are your production skills? How good are your people skills? How good is your business sense? What could you offer that isn't already being offered by the many studios in town? etc.

Years ago, I went out with an American audio producer (I was living in the US). But through her I met a whole host of people who were making really good money for doing corporate audio. Voice overs for everything from the AVR for the phone companies, to little bits for corporate training and stuff. But the money was very very good. If you can get in on it - it's a really good living. It's a couple of hundred quid, to a few thousand for producing a few minutes of voice audio. The thing is it's trickier than it sounds. The voice over actors really have to know what they're doing. Voice over is nothing like normal speech - even though it doesn't sound abnormal the specialist voice over actor is doing some tricky things with their voice.

A lot of the people working in Voice over were former music engs and producers. The work just has to be of a high quality. They don't have to worry about having a hit record.

Anyway - At one point they subcontracted to a bigish Dublin company, who have their own studio. The result was atrocious, and the company delivered really late. Noisey hiss through everything and the voice over actors had no idea what they were doing - A serious amateur night production. NO MORE MONEY

There is corporate work out there if you can get in on it. But the original music business really doesn't pay. You'd need a serious hit record before everyone involved could make decent money.

Sound Engineering where to start?

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