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Sound Engineering where to start?

  • 02-07-2008 6:38pm
    #1
    sinjin_smythe
    Registered Users Posts: 995 ✭✭✭


    I'm 22 working full time and have an ordinary degree in manufacturing engineering but what im doin right now is only on a temporary basis. I have really thought about going back to study, and this course really appeals to me because its something id be really interested in doing. Ive looked at the schools and decided im gion to do the introduction weekend lesson in protools (101) before i make any full time commitment to study. My question is where should i go?

    Pulse recording

    Poppyhill

    Ballyfermot

    and another thing. Can i get a grant to easy the pain of college fees for this course? i heard Fas offer one but what would i need to qualify?

    so just if i can get a few views to get me in the right direction id really appreciate it. cheers lads !


«1

Comments

  • #2
    jtsuited
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,401 ✭✭✭jtsuited


    ok before everyone else chimes in saying this I'll say it first. The chances of you ever getting employment out of these courses are so slim that you better be doing it for reasons other that a serious career ambition.

    If you are doing this solely because you're interested, your money would be better spent on equipment.
    It's really not an area that needs this type of education anyway. It's not that difficult to get into if you have an interest anyway.

    I've got an M.A in music technology/computer music, and honestly the amount of information I acquired in that masters is insignificant in what I've learnt from experience over the years.

    If you've got a half decent brain, good ears, and a desire to learn, you really don't need those types of places whatsoever.

    edit: so my suggestion would be get a recording setup, get recording, mixing, producing, etc.


  • #3
    dav nagle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,182 ✭✭✭dav nagle


    jtsuited wrote: »
    ok before everyone else chimes in saying this I'll say it first. The chances of you ever getting employment out of these courses are so slim that you better be doing it for reasons other that a serious career ambition.

    If you are doing this solely because you're interested, your money would be better spent on equipment.
    It's really not an area that needs this type of education anyway. It's not that difficult to get into if you have an interest anyway.

    I've got an M.A in music technology/computer music, and honestly the amount of information I acquired in that masters is insignificant in what I've learnt from experience over the years.

    If you've got a half decent brain, good ears, and a desire to learn, you really don't need those types of places whatsoever.

    edit: so my suggestion would be get a recording setup, get recording, mixing, producing, etc.

    +1

    This is the truth so help me God


  • #4
    PaulBrewer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,790 ✭✭✭PaulBrewer


    weedhead wrote: »
    I'm 22 working full time and have an ordinary degree in manufacturing engineering but what im doin right now is only on a temporary basis. I have really thought about going back to study, and this course really appeals to me because its something id be really interested in doing. Ive looked at the schools and decided im gion to do the introduction weekend lesson in protools (101) before i make any full time commitment to study. My question is where should i go?

    Pulse recording

    Poppyhill

    Ballyfermot

    and another thing. Can i get a grant to easy the pain of college fees for this course? i heard Fas offer one but what would i need to qualify?

    so just if i can get a few views to get me in the right direction id really appreciate it. cheers lads !

    To answer your question -

    All of the above have pretty good reputations.

    I know Pulse is well equipped and Poppyhill has been around for some time. I seem to remember someone from Poppyhill posting before.


    I think your plan of using the 101 to help make your decision re full time education is a wise one, particularly as you're already gainfully employed.
    Perhaps you have more to lose than some.

    While it's true you could probably read the manual and learn as much - the 101 will give you a basic grounding quickly and should be fun. Armed with that knowledge, you should be better equipped to evaluate your various options - not doing any full time course at all being one!

    Best of Luck.


  • #5
    dav nagle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,182 ✭✭✭dav nagle


    PaulBrewer wrote: »
    To answer your question -

    All of the above have pretty good reputations.

    I know Pulse is well equipped and Poppyhill has been around for some time. I seem to remember someone from Poppyhill posting before.


    I think your plan of using the 101 to help make your decision re full time education is a wise one, particularly as you're already gainfully employed.
    Perhaps you have more to lose than some.

    While it's true you could probably read the manual and learn as much - the 101 will give you a basic grounding quickly and should be fun. Armed with that knowledge, you should be better equipped to evaluate your various options - not doing any full time course at all being one!

    Best of Luck.

    True, a good steady job is a solid living, better than living on the edge


  • #6
    studiorat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭studiorat


    If you have a degree, what's that level 5?
    Those courses are a lower level than a degree, diplomas etc. You won't get funding to do a course that will give you a lower award.

    Ballyfermot and Bray offer higher level awards AFIK and are about 1/10th the price of the private courses.

    Masters would be more suitable. Doesn't guarantee a job either.


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  • #7
    sinjin_smythe
    Registered Users Posts: 995 ✭✭✭sinjin_smythe


    true, i got through college by people telling me i need a course with plenty of job offers and thats steady in later life, I can see where these people are coming from but i dont want any of that at my age right now. Maybe i might change my mind after the introduction 101 but if i dont i want to take this and at least ill have something to fall back on if it doesnt work. But if you guys got more to say id really appreciate it.. cheers for ur comments already


  • #8
    sinjin_smythe
    Registered Users Posts: 995 ✭✭✭sinjin_smythe


    level 6


  • #9
    seannash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,672 ✭✭✭seannash


    i think jtsuited hit it on the head when he said your money will be better spent on your own equipment.
    do you want to make your own music and are doing the course to get your head around how to do it or do you just wanna record bands in a studio.
    if you just wanna record bands hit up any studio you know and ask them for some work experience(youll probably just run errands and make tea).hopefully youll find a place where you can get some experience.
    if you just wanna make your own stuff,buy equipment and teach yourself,youll be far better off.
    i attended the pulse course a few years ago.i was honestly too young to appreciate it and take it seriously.i found it good but i spent the year learning how to piece stuff together on a reel to reel tape machine,splicing,soldering cables etc.i didnt find it interesting but its all aspects that you "may" need.

    if you buy your own equipment youll be able to go to a more advanced course a year from now where you will probably learn more.theres nothing worse than going to a course where they teach you stuff you already know.


  • #10
    cdutd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17 ✭cdutd


    :eek:Wow , this all puts me in a bit of a predicament. I was fully focused on attending a course in the near future.( fas would be ideal money wise) I can see the point about if you have what it takes then you don't need it, in the music scene. However i was in the mind of producing music for tv, film , video games and such. Surely it's good to have some educational back round if you want to approach these areas, no??


  • #11
    PaulBrewer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,790 ✭✭✭PaulBrewer


    cdutd wrote: »
    :eek:Wow , this all puts me in a bit of a predicament. I was fully focused on attending a course in the near future.( fas would be ideal money wise) I can see the point about if you have what it takes then you don't need it, in the music scene. However i was in the mind of producing music for tv, film , video games and such. Surely it's good to have some educational back round if you want to approach these areas, no??

    It all depends on your situation. My comments were in reference to the Original posters situation, which perhaps, is slightly different than many insofar as he's talking about giving up a job.

    Also he's talking about a short, weekend low commitment course initially.

    People like StudioRat have a very good overview of this area and should be listened to.
    He works as a Professional sound engineer.
    He works as a Teacher for a City+ Guilds Course in Bray.


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  • #12
    studiorat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭studiorat


    PaulBrewer wrote: »
    He works as a Teacher for a City+ Guilds in Bray.

    Bray and Ballyfermot actually do a Higher National Diploma at this stage. They are tied in to colleges in the UK that give you the option to continue on to a degree with an extra year in the UK.

    It's also wise to note that recording music, bands etc. is not the only route you may take after finishing any sound course. Video Games, Content creation, Film Sound recordist, Film sound mixer the list goes on. Most of which while not being as "sexy" as Record Producer are much better paid.


  • #13
    jimi_t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,579 ✭✭✭jimi_t


    studiorat wrote: »
    Bray and Ballyfermot actually do a Higher National Diploma at this stage. They are tied in to colleges in the UK that give you the option to continue on to a degree with an extra year in the UK.

    I looked into it myself at length through courses offered, FAS and the CAO (I had a leaving of 450 so my options were fairly open). The only one worth doing from people I talked to was the course in Manchester (Huddersfield?) and I didn't have the cash so I went off to do me English degree and kept the music stuff as a hobby.

    The City and Guilds, as a qualification, is a complete waste of time. The courses (esp. Ballyfermot) seem well rounded and interesting - not to mention a great way of meeting like-minded people - but the qualification itself isn't worth the paper its printed on.
    It's also wise to note that recording music, bands etc. is not the only route you may take after finishing any sound course. Video Games, Content creation, Film Sound recordist, Film sound mixer the list goes on. Most of which while not being as "sexy" as Record Producer are much better paid.

    A massive pipe-dream. There are no indigenous games companies in this country (and the concept of hiring 'unknowns' to do in-game music has been dying since the days of WipeOut 2097). There is feck all by way of indigenous cinema (and before someone starts going on about Element Pictures or whoever else, realise that the majority of the post-production goes on in England. RTE are a blundering behemoth more focused on getting 'Off the Rails' and 'Fair City' out the door). You just can't get employment.

    As an aside, hands up (no teachers or tutors please) who did a city and guilds and is making at least 400 quid a week in any aspect of the industry? I mean its obviously not all about the money if you love what you're doing, but you honestly would want to make 400 a week otherwise you're as well off doing it on the side and claiming the bloody dole.


  • #14
    PaulBrewer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,790 ✭✭✭PaulBrewer


    jimi_t wrote: »



    As an aside, hands up who is making at least 400 quid a week in any aspect of the industry?
    Or even this?


  • #15
    gaillimheach
    Registered Users Posts: 114 ✭✭gaillimheach


    You'd get 150 quid a week tax free (I'm almost certain it's tax free) from Udaras na Gaeltacha if you did the new diploma course in the arranging and staging of trad music, run by NUIG and starting this September! This course includes a very strong music-related sound engineering component.

    Only snag is, tis taught as Gaeilge.


  • #16
    PaulBrewer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,790 ✭✭✭PaulBrewer


    gaillimheach wrote: »
    You'd get 150 quid a week tax free (I'm almost certain it's tax free) from Udaras na Gaeltacha if you did the new diploma course in the arranging and staging of trad music, run by NUIG and starting this September! This course includes a very strong music-related sound engineering component.

    Only snag is, tis taught as Gaeilge.

    Only a snag if you don't speak da Lingo!


  • #17
    studiorat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭studiorat


    weedhead wrote: »
    level 6

    I stand corrected.

    I don't have any formal qualifications in Sound Engineering. I do ok though.


  • #18
    ICN
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,214 ✭✭✭ICN


    Everyone is right.

    Do a course now - get it out of your system.

    You'll always regret it if you don't do it.

    If you have no real responsibilities @ the moment _ as in:

    1.Women
    2.Job
    3.Mortgage

    .. Then do it.

    Its far harder to find the time to go back to it when you have a career & all the stuff that goes with getting older.

    There will never be a better time to do it.


    That said - I totally agree with JT & Sean - Keep buying stuff / software / hardware / instruments whatever you are into. Supplement it all with a good dose of personal research via Forums / Internet / Music Magazines & Books.

    I fall into the 2nd category here - I'm a human sponge. I wish I had of spent some time after school / college, just to have it under my belt. Its never too late to do a course, of course(!), but the aul motivational energy in the evenings after work ain't high enough to go out & listen to stuff that I already probably know.

    Like Johnny 5 said in Short Circuit - "..Need more input!! Need more input!!"


    LOL :pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:


  • #19
    i57dwun4yb1pt8
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭i57dwun4yb1pt8


    heave you ever recorded anything ?
    do you have a tape machine , a mic ?
    have you downloaded REAPER and used it ?

    you need to try recording sound before doing a course in it - read some books get some basic gear and try it - then you will know if you need a course in it
    ( which you wont cos you will have learned to do it at home )

    you need to do this stuff to learn it - get the nitty gritty down before wasting money on a course - you learn more by DOING than having someone tell you how to do it .

    and im not being a hard ass, this stuff is really something you need to be doing every day . its like saying - should i do a course in drums ? - if you dont play a bit already - how will you know ?


  • #20
    seannash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,672 ✭✭✭seannash


    DaDumTish wrote: »
    heave you ever recorded anything ?
    do you have a tape machine , a mic ?
    have you downloaded REAPER and used it ?

    you need to try recording sound before doing a course in it - read some books get some basic gear and try it - then you will know if you need a course in it
    ( which you wont cos you will have learned to do it at home )

    you need to do this stuff to learn it - get the nitty gritty down before wasting money on a course - you learn more by DOING than having someone tell you how to do it .

    and im not being a hard ass, this stuff is really something you need to be doing every day . its like saying - should i do a course in drums ? - if you dont play a bit already - how will you know ?
    tape machine????


  • #21
    i57dwun4yb1pt8
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭i57dwun4yb1pt8


    yeah , a tape machine , you never heard of tape before ?



    alot of drums are still multitracked on to 16 or 24 tracks tape then dumped in to PT or whatever - this allows you to get that rich warm tape saturated sound .

    and some people still use tape to record , not everyone has bitten the PC hard drive bullet yet .


    just saw this as i was writing -

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055331650


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  • #22
    seannash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,672 ✭✭✭seannash


    DaDumTish wrote: »
    yeah , a tape machine , you never heard of tape before ?



    alot of drums are still multitracked on to 16 or 24 tracks tape then dumped in to PT or whatever - this allows you to get that rich warm tape saturated sound .

    and some people still use tape to record , not everyone has bitten the PC hard drive bullet yet .
    of course ive heard of tape but i hardly think its a requirement these days.but thats just my opinion.i do agree with the rest of your post though :D


  • #23
    studiorat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭studiorat


    I'd put my converters up there with any tape machine.
    I've done A/B's and I have found the bottom end more controlled than tape and deeper for that matter. Kick drums sound nicer on digi, maybe saturation of the snare and electric guitars helps a bit but it's negligible.

    Vocals sounded better on analogue compared to earlier digi systems. They are just as good now, better really 'cause you have more dynamic range. The problem was always with sybillance.

    I'll take high sample rate digi with a good clock and front end before tape any day.

    Don't forget a professional 24track was well over €100,000 compared to a half decent computer rig for maybe €25K.


    I digress...


  • #24
    dav nagle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,182 ✭✭✭dav nagle


    studiorat wrote: »
    I'd put my converters up there with any tape machine.
    I've done A/B's and I have found the bottom end more controlled than tape and deeper for that matter. Kick drums sound nicer on digi, maybe saturation of the snare and electric guitars helps a bit but it's negligible.

    Vocals sounded better on analogue compared to earlier digi systems. They are just as good now, better really 'cause you have more dynamic range. The problem was always with sybillance.

    I'll take high sample rate digi with a good clock and front end before tape any day.

    Don't forget a professional 24track was well over €100,000 compared to a half decent computer rig for maybe €25K.


    I digress...



    I would take tape any day ... and throw it in the bin :eek::eek::eek:


  • #25
    i57dwun4yb1pt8
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭i57dwun4yb1pt8


    ERR. OK ! the point is not about tape - its about whether the OP has ever recroded anything - even using a simple tape dake, cassette , whatever. maybe a sharp thorne on a rotating wax cylinder - anything .

    no point doing a course in something you may even hate - ( or love )
    until you have some idea of whats it all about .


  • #26
    zero19
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,641 ✭✭✭zero19


    I was like yourself OP, thought SE would be a great thing to learn, and it is, but the job prospects are terrible as has been said! I did my course with FAS 2 years ago, i certainly wouldn't pay to do a course myself. A few of the chaps i did the course with are working in the industry but this is down to who they know not what a piece of paper says they know...


  • #27
    danjokill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 261 ✭✭danjokill


    dav nagle wrote: »
    I would take tape any day ... and throw it in the bin :eek::eek::eek:

    No more than i expected from you ..... lol :o


  • #28
    studiorat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭studiorat


    Oh yeah! It's a world of hurt alright.

    I don't agree with the 'who you know' think though. It's a bit of an excuse really.
    What's to stop you getting out there and getting to know these people yourself. There's a lot more to it then just sending out a load of CV's. All the people I know in the biz got in there through work experience and just helping out working for nothing.

    Personally my first job in a studio was from a work experience placement I organized myself for 2 weeks. I was doing a radio course at the time 'cause there wasn't a sound engineering course per se. The day I finished the course I called back around to the studio, at the end of the summer they asked was I going back to college and I said no! I'm staying here.


    Mind you here's a job...


    The problem is it's kinda changed now and there's a definite move towards people having to buy there own gear and going on expensive courses. Which is a definite bad thing. I gives the rich kids a head start, I see it when I'm lecturing all the time. The studio game used to be full of people from all over the place, we used to comment on it all the time. I'm seeing a change there.

    I remember one engineer being asked by a work experience guy once, what sort of gear did he have at home and the engineer looking at him all suprised like "why the hell would I have gear at home"!!! This was a man who'd been recording since the 60's and the only piece of kit he brought to the studio with him was a cushion 'cause he didn't like the leather chair!

    Mind you here's a nice job for someone starting out...
    http://uk.music-jobs.com/current/studio-assistant-job-10787996


  • #29
    PaulBrewer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,790 ✭✭✭PaulBrewer


    studiorat wrote: »
    Mind you here's a nice job for someone starting out...
    http://uk.music-jobs.com/current/studio-assistant-job-10787996

    I was going to apply for this but I'm not very good at Gardening ...:confused:


  • #30
    dav nagle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,182 ✭✭✭dav nagle


    DaDumTish wrote: »
    ERR. OK ! the point is not about tape - its about whether the OP has ever recroded anything - even using a simple tape dake, cassette , whatever. maybe a sharp thorne on a rotating wax cylinder - anything .

    no point doing a course in something you may even hate - ( or love )
    until you have some idea of whats it all about .


    To right man, I am all about the digital age the digital buzz! I wouldn't take a 'hiss' on a piece of noisy tape. I'm in the new age, these times we live are times of extreme deadline and impatience.

    I know guys and this is true, I swear, these guys ( 2 different rock bands) went to Spain and recorded and album on reel to reel all the way and they were expecting a REAL sound in their music. They followed their dream and achieved some great results but after all their travels and heart ache they finally woke up one day and said 'what are we doing?' we can get the same results if not even better right here in Dublin or the UK.

    They both believed that vintage this and vintage that was the GOD in sound recording.


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  • #31
    Gel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 240 ✭✭Gel


    Okay, I feel obliged to respond.
    I'm the owner of Poppyhill School...and proud of it!
    1. If you want to become an airline pilot would you attend a course or listen to guys telling you to "take her up yourself and you'll get the hang of it!"

    2. I get students every year who've been working with equipment for years and realise "I don't really know what I'm doing!" I need to learn this properly!

    3. You can mess around with equipment all you want but it will take you 10 times as long to do anything properly as it would if you learn to really understand the technology!

    4. When I started out I did a training course. I wouldn't have had a clue of where to start or how to start if I didn't!

    5. I gave up a pensionable job to do this because I really wanted it! I've no regrets! If you really want to work in this business you can! How much do you want it!

    6. I'm tired of listening to individuals saying it was a waste of time! Training to be a sound engineer is not about " Hey man! look at me, with all these light, knobs and stuff! Don't I look cool!" It's about hard work! Do you want it? then go for it and work for it!

    7. Not all colleges who teach sound engineering are trying to strip you of all your cash! Like any business we have to survive and try to keep our facilities updated plus pay tutors and all that. I can only speak for Poppyhill in saying that we honestly care about our students and give them the best training we possibly can as well as the moral support they need.
    That's why we've survived for almost 20 years!
    To conclude...whereever you go ..go for it!!!


  • #32
    jtsuited
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,401 ✭✭✭jtsuited


    Gel wrote: »
    1. If you want to become an airline pilot would you attend a course or listen to guys telling you to "take her up yourself and you'll get the hang of it!"
    If airplanes weren't dangerous and the course was completely irrelevant to actually getting a job, then yes I would "take her up yourself and you'll get the hang of it!"


  • #33
    PaulBrewer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,790 ✭✭✭PaulBrewer


    Gel wrote: »
    Okay, I feel obliged to respond.
    I'm the owner of Poppyhill School...and proud of it!
    1. If you want to become an airline pilot would you attend a course or listen to guys telling you to "take her up yourself and you'll get the hang of it!"

    2. I get students every year who've been working with equipment for years and realise "I don't really know what I'm doing!" I need to learn this properly!

    3. You can mess around with equipment all you want but it will take you 10 times as long to do anything properly as it would if you learn to really understand the technology!

    4. When I started out I did a training course. I wouldn't have had a clue of where to start or how to start if I didn't!

    5. I gave up a pensionable job to do this because I really wanted it! I've no regrets! If you really want to work in this business you can! How much do you want it!

    6. I'm tired of listening to individuals saying it was a waste of time! Training to be a sound engineer is not about " Hey man! look at me, with all these light, knobs and stuff! Don't I look cool!" It's about hard work! Do you want it? then go for it and work for it!

    7. Not all colleges who teach sound engineering are trying to strip you of all your cash! Like any business we have to survive and try to keep our facilities updated plus pay tutors and all that. I can only speak for Poppyhill in saying that we honestly care about our students and give them the best training we possibly can as well as the moral support they need.
    That's why we've survived for almost 20 years!
    To conclude...whereever you go ..go for it!!!

    Good Post Gel. Nice to see a bit of passion combined with sense here! That's what I like to see. I hope we'll see more regular posts from you.


  • #34
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    I did the Ballyfermot course about 8 years ago. Excellent! I was 17 and fresh out of leaving cert. i had a band and did a little recording. It was a wealth of knowledge and help. Since I did it, the equipment etc has improved 10 fold. The course head (Larry O'Toole) is a genius when it comes to sound engineering also. I couldn't recommend it enough. A few things though:

    1) Try do some independant learning first, get a little experience etc. The places are very limited on the course, and the interview will determine your entry. I'd love to go back and do it again, after acquiring the experience I have now.

    2) The huge regret I have, is that I got involved in a bit of engineering snobbery when I was there. I.E. a bit of an us and them attitude to musicians. If you see this attitude, avoid it like the plague. I was 17 and foolish.

    If its ur dream, follow it! Forget about jobs etc. When you take the plunge, and you're motivated, you'll find something when your finished. Its a career where you really do start at the bottom in most cases though.

    Good luck,
    J.


  • #35
    studiorat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭studiorat


    I teach...
    I understand the complications of running a course and to my mind there's a real issue with the price of what it costs to run a course and the value the people attending get out of it with regards to employment etc.

    That said, there's always a couple of people each year who just seem to apply themselves and get the work done. These are usually successful.

    I was involved in developing a course a few years back and was amazed that the college could afford to pay me and fit out a studio once they got a certain amount of students attending in the first year, about half of what we could have handled per year. They had plenty of space so that wasn't a real issue and I'm sure other courses on the campus would have subsidised insurance etc. in the first year if numbers were low...

    Running courses and training is a vital part of a lot of recording studios income these day's it would seem. It used to be overnight sessions and the like, but my take on it is that that "unsigned" rate has turned into courses just as those particular customers have begun to buy their own gear as opposed to booking studio time.

    To this end we also run short courses. Most of our customers are working and doing it one or two nights a week. We've structured it so you can a course for 4 or 8 weeks, then do a follow up more advanced and move along like as you feel you need to. If someones a DJ they may not need to spend time studying how microphones are made or the like...

    It's more for people who are performing, DJ's, musicians etc. Personal development kind of thing... Rather than people who are directly seeking employment in the industry, I wouldn't fancy the responsibility of that!


  • #36
    PaulBrewer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,790 ✭✭✭PaulBrewer


    JimiTime wrote: »



    2) The huge regret I have, is that I got involved in a bit of engineering snobbery when I was there. I.E. a bit of an us and them attitude to musicians. If you see this attitude, avoid it like the plague. I was 17 and foolish.

    I think we've all seen that at some stage. The hierarchy that seems to produce the best recorded music is Band-Producer-Engineer. That's not to devalue the engineers job, but to place it in context. I too was a Plum at 17!


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  • #37
    Gel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 240 ✭✭Gel


    Okay just a few clear points...

    1. There IS work in the industry. If there wasn't it would be a very quiet world!! Why do you want to learn Sound Engineering? Probably because you saw someone else WORKING at it! It's not easy and you won't become rich and you may not get exactly the kind of job you want but it sure beats a lot of other options out there!

    2. Why would anyone who is passionate about something not want to do a course to learn it. If you're concerned about the cost, then you probably aren't passionate enough to get somewhere! I would have sold my Granny to do a course when I was starting out!

    3. There seems to be a feeling that colleges are a rip off! I'm not going to criticize or defend other colleges but I can tell you straight. Our school needs every penny it gets! We have never received a penny in funding like some of the VECs and it's taken 20 years of hard work and dedication to get our school to where it is. Our students are our lifeline! Sure we charge quite a bit but we give back every cent's worth in dedication to our students. We would be very silly not to because without them we're finished!

    4. To say that doing a course is irrelevant to getting work is crazy! To have a qualification in your hand proves that you were/are willing to put the effort in. It's not a certificate of expertise, that only comes with experience. It's a certificate of a genuine will to succeed!
    Incidentally we have an opening here at Poppyhill for a Tutor in Sound Engineering & Music Technology and guess what...It's a distinct advantage to have a certified qualification. Pro Tools certification is also required.
    If anyone is interested please email info@poppyschool.com
    So there you go, that's one job going anyway!

    5. The kind of Certificate/Diploma you hold is not really that important. What is important is what you put into and learned from the course.
    I would say however that in my honest opinion City & Guilds or the National Diploma have an advantage over Fetac in that they will be better known outside of Ireland. Content wise I would consider a Fetac course to be roughly equivalent to a City & Guilds level 1.
    I would also draw a clear distinction between courses offered in Music Technology in Universities and Music Technology courses offered in colleges like our own. The University courses tend to be very academic and focus a lot on the experimental/R&D side and tend to push their students towards careers in that field. That's not to say they're not good courses but they are different.

    6. Finally I reckon you are much more likely to get a good education from a private college specializing in one area than a college running a hundred different courses. After all you're probably making a sizable contribution to their overall income and they need you to endorse their training if they want to survive. In a big college if the sound training/music tech course is crap, they've always got science, business etc. etc. etc.!

    Okay, I've waffled on a bit and just to point out that none of my comments are directed towards any particular establishment and are simply my opinions.


  • #38
    studiorat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭studiorat


    A college cert does indeed prove at least an interest in the game, after spending a year or two in college it might be safe to say a prospective employee may stay in the job after being trained it etc. Studios for one are very careful when employing someone as an assistant. It can be a real pain to train in someone and then have them leave because they don't like the hours. It probably takes a two or three months to get someone to this level.

    However some still prefer to train in people themselves. Starting off just as a runner and then leaving them as assistant on a session with an engineer who knows the studio well and so on. Most people can pick it up by watching others, it's not exactly hard to do. The hardest lesson in this situation is probably that if you don't know how to do something say so, it's no big deal. You'll be shown how to, and people won't have a problem with it. Also, no one wants to employ someone who thinks because they have done a course they are Bob Clearmountain either, you'll get that too from time to time.

    Unbelievable as it may seem I've seen guys with jobs in studios leave to return to college to finish their certificate, believing the piece of paper is important. Where they got this mentality from I just don't know. You'll learn more sitting in a control room assisting on a session than a month in any college, as we all know engineers just love to pontificate on technique and how things should be done.

    My advice would be try and get in somewhere, working for free if necessary, anywhere! And if that doesn't work out I'd then start thinking about a course.


  • #39
    sinjin_smythe
    Registered Users Posts: 995 ✭✭✭sinjin_smythe


    well since my post i have applied for a trainee position with a well know studio in dublin city (previous experience not essential). So im praying that i will show them how much i want this at the interview casue thats all i got right now. Thanks for everything, you have all shown me alot more then i knew. Thanks


  • #40
    PaulBrewer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,790 ✭✭✭PaulBrewer


    weedhead wrote: »
    well since my post i have applied for a trainee position with a well know studio in dublin city (previous experience not essential). So im praying that i will show them how much i want this at the interview casue thats all i got right now. Thanks for everything, you have all shown me alot more then i knew. Thanks

    Best of Luck Squire!


  • #41
    dav nagle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,182 ✭✭✭dav nagle


    weedhead wrote: »
    well since my post i have applied for a trainee position with a well know studio in dublin city (previous experience not essential). So im praying that i will show them how much i want this at the interview casue thats all i got right now. Thanks for everything, you have all shown me alot more then i knew. Thanks

    Beacon studios by any chance ?


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  • #42
    sinjin_smythe
    Registered Users Posts: 995 ✭✭✭sinjin_smythe


    dav nagle wrote: »
    Beacon studios by any chance ?

    well yeah actually, nice guess.


  • #43
    dav nagle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,182 ✭✭✭dav nagle


    weedhead wrote: »
    well yeah actually, nice guess.

    Best of luck :)


  • #44
    Niall - Dahlia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 820 ✭✭✭Niall - Dahlia


    I think if you're determined to get into the business it doesn't matter which route you take, you'll get there in the end if you have the motivation and passion for it.

    But anyway, seeing as it's late and I'm bored, here's a bit of an alternative suggestion on "where to start". Nobody has really mentioned it but I seriously considered doing something like this about 2 years ago but my balls weren't big enough.

    First off, get your hands on a cheap mBox, the 101/110 course book and a good sound engineering book (something like Sound and Recording, Rumsey). Get your PT chops up to speed and study the book back to front for a couple months, alongside your EQ, comps and gates etc in Pro Tools. Read the audio forums, magazines etc. Just absorb every ounce of information you can (and there's alot on the net, if you can wade through the ****, like possibly this post!)

    When you feel you're ready and you're itching to get going, use the 5 grand to book yourself into a decent studio (with yourself as engineer) for as many days as possible. 5 grand will get you over 10 days, probably nearer 20 if you chat to the owner. That might not sound like alot, but that's 150-200 hours of pure studio time, one session a week. Hook up with somebody with a similar interest who's willing to go halves and it's double that. I reckon I got about 8 hours in a studio with a band in the course I did...and that was shared with 6 other students...

    Get the equipment list for the studio you've just made your new home, and study them cover to cover. Mics, desk, outboard, everything.

    Your first day or two just go in on your own. Mess around with the desk, getting signals in and out, foldback, patch bay etc. Get some signals sent all around the place and into Pro Tools (you're already a whiz at that). You might be lucky enough to have somebody in the studio to show you anything you're not familiar with (ie everything, it's his lucky day). Try out the black chair and a bit of posing at the desk. Take a **** load of notes and photos (of the equipment, not of you pretending you're mixing). Study them when you get home for a week.

    The next week you go in with a friend who wants to record a few acoustic songs. Simple ****, acoustic and vocals. Again take a **** load of notes. Once you've cracked that, the next week you bring in a friend's band, who are relaxed and realise they might not get anything at the end of the day other than a day posing infront of a mic. You might completely cock it up, but you'll be learning faster than anybody sat infront of a blackboard talking about polar patterns (but you know all that **** anyway from the book you studied)

    By your 5th or 6th session you're dealing with bands you don't know, who expect something at the end of the day. But hey, **** them, it's free, you're just there to learn! You bring in a hard drive and bring all the files home to mix all week long.

    By the 10th session you're choosing which mic to use based on sound rather than what somebody told you to use on an internet forum, patching in compressors and concentrating on getting a good sound. Your last few sessions you might even be charging the bands a few quid to help pay the studio fee.

    By the end of it all you've got 1. A portfolio CD of the best tracks you recorded 2. A solid understanding of all the key elements in a studio 3. A bit of experience with dealing with bands and egos 4. Possibly some contact with a future employer ie the studio owner, whos studio you can now run better than him!

    Sounds easy, eh?


  • #45
    studiorat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭studiorat


    weedhead wrote: »
    well since my post i have applied for a trainee position with a well know studio in dublin city (previous experience not essential). So im praying that i will show them how much i want this at the interview casue thats all i got right now. Thanks for everything, you have all shown me alot more then i knew. Thanks


    get in there!!!!
    Anything we can do to help, just holler!


  • #46
    jimi_t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,579 ✭✭✭jimi_t


    jimi_t wrote: »
    As an aside, hands up (no teachers or tutors please) who did a city and guilds and is making at least 400 quid a week in any aspect of the industry? I mean its obviously not all about the money if you love what you're doing, but you honestly would want to make 400 a week otherwise you're as well off doing it on the side and claiming the bloody dole.

    Just wanted to bump this again. Anyone?


  • #47
    PaulBrewer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,790 ✭✭✭PaulBrewer


    I didn't and make more than that if that's any good! :pac:


  • #48
    4k
    Registered Users Posts: 44 ✭4k


    this is a great thread guys, i've really enjoyed reading it. so much so that i actually joined the forum after viewing for years. i agree with all of the advise, even if some of it is contradictory. good job.

    one thing i dont get though is where people find information about sound engineering online. for instance the assistant engineer jobs or any jobs for that matter! i've searched and searched and can never find anything. the only jobs i get are by asking every engineer i meet to give me advise. i can never find anything online. but hey, it has been said, it is hard work and one does have to be hardcore to progress in this business.


  • #49
    alphasounds
    Registered Users Posts: 68 ✭✭alphasounds


    I do sound courses for 250 e 12 hrs.
    In Tramore
    Thor


  • #50
    studiorat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭studiorat


    4k wrote: »
    this is a great thread guys, i've really enjoyed reading it. so much so that i actually joined the forum after viewing for years. i agree with all of the advise, even if some of it is contradictory. good job.

    one thing i dont get though is where people find information about sound engineering online. for instance the assistant engineer jobs or any jobs for that matter! i've searched and searched and can never find anything. the only jobs i get are by asking every engineer i meet to give me advise. i can never find anything online. but hey, it has been said, it is hard work and one does have to be hardcore to progress in this business.

    UK music Jobs .com is a good place to start. These jobs aren't usually advertised so it's usually better to just keep in contact with the various employers from time to time. Get to know them and them know you...


  • #51
    TowlieMcD
    Registered Users Posts: 49 ✭TowlieMcD


    Hello everyone, i've been reading through this forum and its been really interesting. I'm 16 and i'm contemplating becoming a sound engineer. It looks to me (from what i've been reading) that its difficult to get a job in this industry. I live been looking at different colleges like Pulse Recordijng College and Sound Training Centre of Ireland. I'm not 100% sure which one of them would be the best. Maybe some of you can enlighten me. it doesn't have to be them either. Whichever college ye feel is up to a high standard. I'm a musician(traditional Irish music) but i'd be more interested into sound engineering in other types of music. Do you need to have certain points from the leaving cert? I have no experience in a recording studio but like music and would love to work in a recording studio or be an audio engineer for video games or something along those lines. Also what is the pay like?:)


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