Property Market 2020

L1011 · 08-01-2020 4:48pm

Sleepy wrote: »

Yeah, not a bill you want to be facing unexpectedly and with little time to shop around to get sorted!

Unless the tech gets much, much cheaper, I can see a lot of these new A2/A3 homes ending up being retrograded to use oil / gas / solid fuel burners when the original units begin to reach end-of-life.

The likelyhood is that within a decade gas/oil boilers will only be legally available for replacement of existing systems and you'd need to find a grey market way to get your hands on them.

The_Conductor · 08-01-2020 4:51pm

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

*Shudders

Facking hell

Not sure why its so high.
They've started putting heat exchangers in some car marques as an efficient way to manage climate control. Its standard in 2020 A5s and upwards and an option on lower models- for example. Once its rolled out as the defacto standard on cars- it can only really become a cheaper option for homes etc.

Most people got SEI grants for heat exchangers to begin with- perhaps there will be a grant to pay for their upgrade when the time comes?

sweetie · 08-01-2020 4:55pm

Ush1 wrote: »

Huh? Why would they do that?

Because it's too warm and it takes too long to cool down so opening a window is quicker. My sister has this type of system.

Sleepy · 08-01-2020 5:07pm

L1011 wrote: »

The likelyhood is that within a decade gas/oil boilers will only be legally available for replacement of existing systems and you'd need to find a grey market way to get your hands on them.

I don't disagree. I'm just wondering if such policies are going to have serious unintended consequences down the road. Repair bills of that level are likely to put a financial strain on most normal households...

Ush1 wrote: »

Huh? Why would they do that?

Even in our C rated home, myself and Mrs Sleepy have the window of our bedroom open 90% of the time despite the radiator in that room being switched off most of the time.

I presume we're not the only ones who find it more comfortable sleep in a room with a cooler temperature and higher levels of fresh air than other areas of the house?

SozBbz · 08-01-2020 5:38pm

Ush1 wrote: »

Huh? Why would they do that?

Have you spent time in an A rated house? They can be immensely warm, warmer than is comfortable for most.

I recently went to visit my friend in her new build home and she was cooking dinner for myself and one other friend in her kitchen (large, open plan room with den area attached). We were just sat on stools at the island and wearing leggings and t shirts, and still needed to open the windows because we were too warm.

There was no heating on and it was December.

Padre_Pio · 08-01-2020 6:19pm

SozBbz wrote: »

Have you spent time in an A rated house? They can be immensely warm, warmer than is comfortable for most.

I recently went to visit my friend in her new build home and she was cooking dinner for myself and one other friend in her kitchen (large, open plan room with den area attached). We were just sat on stools at the island and wearing leggings and t shirts, and still needed to open the windows because we were too warm.

There was no heating on and it was December.

Friends built a large passive house and put a small wood burner stove in the kitchen/dining room.

6 years later and it's never been lit. They have a second, larger stove in the living room that they light on cold nights and it heats the entire house. Windows and doors are generally left open in summer to keep the place cool. It's a lovely house to walk into, but you'd never need a jumper. He usually wears shorts and a tshirt inside.

Cuddlesworth · 08-01-2020 7:54pm

Sleepy wrote: »

I'd have been of the same opinion but had an interesting conversation with a co-worker today that made me wonder about it. His 15 year old heat exchanger packed in on him on Christmas Eve. He didn't have the 12-15k he was quoted to replace it with a like-for-like heat exchanger and ended up having to get an oil-fired boiler based heating system and oil tank installed for about 8k.

When our own gas boiler went last year, we had a new one installed and all controls etc. upgraded for around 3k. Had we been looking at a similar level of bill as my colleague, we'd have been screwed.

It makes me wonder how maintainable some of the new standards will be for homeowners if the costs of replacing these highly efficient heating systems are so high...

I pulled the solar water system out of my house. The pump went, I spent 3 months trying to get somebody who would repair it and got back quotes that were more expensive then quotes to fit a brand new system. Then the lifetime hot water tank sprung a leak on one of its welded fittings and that was it, ripped the whole lot out and put in a combi boiler.

I have found that household plumbers don't want to know anything about these systems right now and if they do, they only deal with a specific brand or type of system. I would assume assume they are going to have to learn, they they have had it pretty easy the last 3 decades with boilers that were just a power source, gas source and some basic plumbing.

lawred2 · 08-01-2020 8:39pm

sweetie wrote: »

Because it's too warm and it takes too long to cool down so opening a window is quicker. My sister has this type of system.

They've not configured the heating or the heat recovery correctly then.. we would rarely see fit to open windows

Idbatterim · 08-01-2020 9:08pm

the price decreases are being caused by the lending rules, which I totally support. But in this total banana republic and with the rental market the way it is. People would buy at nearly any price if the banks allowed it, like the boom. Hence I totally support the current restrictions imposed by the CB...

Idbatterim · 08-01-2020 9:12pm

Assetbacked wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/another-year-of-dysfunction-ahead-for-ireland-s-property-market-1.4133293

Some information in this article which stuck out for me;

"Realis is reported to be planning a 25-year agreement with Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council, which will pay up to €3,000 a month to rent these properties to accommodate people on its social housing list.

This would set a high benchmark for people trying to rent under their own steam in the area, who then struggle to save the deposit required by the Central Bank to buy a house, which would be cheaper for them financially than paying sky-high rents."

This is astonishing - there is an extremely powerful lobby which has clearly come to some arrangement with the department in order to secure phenomenal returns on their investment at the expense of the taxpayer. €36k rent per annum is sickening for taxpayers to be paying. This is more than the median salary in Ireland! Talk about a disincentive to work.

The upcoming general election here is another possible fly in the ointment, with the potential for some politician or other to utter a throwaway comment on the housing crisis that could spook the market. It’s hard to imagine builders pressing the button on new builds until they know the shape of the next government and their likely policies on property.

"Throwaway comment" i.e. making a comment to speak out on behalf of the citizens rather than the institutional investors? Or talking about the market failure by not delivering to meet the needs of society? This is from the IT Business Editor so it is quite clear that his bread is buttered by certain vested interests.

Depraved, I have to say, I was still somewhat shocked here! and I thought nothing could shock me in this banana republic anymore! Why not give them E500 weekly M and S vouchers too! hell, throw in cleaners too!

bdmc5 · 09-01-2020 1:41am

SozBbz wrote: »

Have you spent time in an A rated house? They can be immensely warm, warmer than is comfortable for most.

I recently went to visit my friend in her new build home and she was cooking dinner for myself and one other friend in her kitchen (large, open plan room with den area attached). We were just sat on stools at the island and wearing leggings and t shirts, and still needed to open the windows because we were too warm.

There was no heating on and it was December.

Are you seriously saying because you once visited a friend who new house was warm that suddenly the majority of people would find A rated homes uncomfortably warm?

One of best features of our new build is how cosy the house always is without being too warm or ever cold in fact. Consider drop in energy cost as well -- It certainly takes some getting used to to find the right level of heat and timings on the air to water but once you find the sweet spot would never go back to winter ICE boxes of the older lower BER rated homes again.

Padre_Pio · 09-01-2020 1:54am

bdmc5 wrote: »

Are you seriously saying because you once visited a friend who new house was warm that suddenly the majority of people would find A rated homes uncomfortably warm?
.

A rated houses aren't all the same.
The BER system can be gamed too. If all you're looking for is that A rating, you can do some unnecessary things just to tick the box and get your rating.

Ush1 · 09-01-2020 9:18am

sweetie wrote: »

Because it's too warm and it takes too long to cool down so opening a window is quicker. My sister has this type of system.

That shouldn't happen in a house that has proper levels of heating control, ventilation and air tightness.

Ush1 · 09-01-2020 9:21am

Sleepy wrote: »

Even in our C rated home, myself and Mrs Sleepy have the window of our bedroom open 90% of the time despite the radiator in that room being switched off most of the time.

I presume we're not the only ones who find it more comfortable sleep in a room with a cooler temperature and higher levels of fresh air than other areas of the house?

This isn't really much to do with BER which is a poor measurement anyway. If you have to have your window open all the time it's a ventilation or heating controls issue.

Your house shouldn't get too hot, especially in the winter, if it's designed correctly.

Ush1 · 09-01-2020 9:26am

SozBbz wrote: »

Have you spent time in an A rated house? They can be immensely warm, warmer than is comfortable for most.

I recently went to visit my friend in her new build home and she was cooking dinner for myself and one other friend in her kitchen (large, open plan room with den area attached). We were just sat on stools at the island and wearing leggings and t shirts, and still needed to open the windows because we were too warm.

There was no heating on and it was December.

Yes, and again, A rating doesn't mean all that much.

The house won't get a whole lot warmer than the ambient temp outside if there has been no heating on. How could it? A cooker on in a room will obviously warm that room up to some extent.

It sounds like a heating control issue to be honest.

SozBbz · 09-01-2020 10:28am

Ush1 wrote: »

Yes, and again, A rating doesn't mean all that much.

The house won't get a whole lot warmer than the ambient temp outside if there has been no heating on. How could it? A cooker on in a room will obviously warm that room up to some extent.

It sounds like a heating control issue to be honest.

If you read my post, I already said the heating was not on. The house has underfloor heating and we were in our socks (new house, shoes left at the door) so we would have felt it.

It was just having 3 people in the room and using cooking facilities and it became too warm.

Its not the first new house I've noticed this in and other posters have cited it before here.

Cuddlesworth · 09-01-2020 10:39am

Ush1 wrote: »

The house won't get a whole lot warmer than the ambient temp outside if there has been no heating on. How could it?

Lots of large windows and a big giant round heater in the sky, combined with no real way for heat to escape(except via heat/cooling system), plus a couple of small scale human heaters in there too.

bdmc5 · 09-01-2020 10:53am

SozBbz wrote: »

If you read my post, I already said the heating was not on. The house has underfloor heating and we were in our socks (new house, shoes left at the door) so we would have felt it.

It was just having 3 people in the room and using cooking facilities and it became too warm.

Its not the first new house I've noticed this in and other posters have cited it before here.

Unfortunately i did read your comment and this 2nd comment only confirms that some personal observations on your part doesnt in any way shape or form constitute the "majority of people"

In fact, it seems you may have abit of A Rated home envy

cruizer101 · 09-01-2020 11:04am

Ush1 wrote: »

Yes, and again, A rating doesn't mean all that much.

The house won't get a whole lot warmer than the ambient temp outside if there has been no heating on. How could it? A cooker on in a room will obviously warm that room up to some extent.

It sounds like a heating control issue to be honest.

An A1 rated house is supposed to use less than 25 kWh/m2/year, so for a 100m2 house that is 2500 kWh/year.

The solar energy that falls on a south facing window ranges between 0.97 and 2.68 kWh/m2/day, though its over 2 for 8 months of year, and average is about 2 (source).
Lets take the average 2, and lets say 10m2 of windows south facing.
Solar Heat Gain Coefficient, SHGC, is factor for amount of solar energy that gets through window typically ranges between 0.3 and 0.5.
2 kWh/m2/day * 10m2 * 0.3 = 6kWh/day solar heat gain, which is over 2000kWh/year in just solar gain.

Add that to other heat sources and its easy to see how it could get too warm in a house and easily warmer than outside.

lawred2 · 09-01-2020 11:13am

cruizer101 wrote: »

An A1 rated house is supposed to use less than 25 kWh/m2/year, so for a 100m2 house that is 2500 kWh/year.

The solar energy that falls on a south facing window ranges between 0.97 and 2.68 kWh/m2/day, though its over 2 for 8 months of year, and average is about 2 (source).
Lets take the average 2, and lets say 10m2 of windows south facing.
Solar Heat Gain Coefficient, SHGC, is factor for amount of solar energy that gets through window typically ranges between 0.3 and 0.5.
2 kWh/m2/day * 10m2 * 0.3 = 6kWh/day solar heat gain, which is over 2000kWh/year in just solar gain.

Add that to other heat sources and its easy to see how it could get too warm in a house and easily warmer than outside.

yes an A rated house keeps it heat

and yes an A rated house requires very little heating and adequately ventilated reaches a stable ambient temperature very quickly..

If you were in an A rated house that didn't allow for a stable ambient temperature then the ventilation system is either not configured properly or not functioning correctly..

SozBbz · 09-01-2020 11:24am

bdmc5 wrote: »

Unfortunately i did read your comment and this 2nd comment only confirms that some personal observations on your part doesnt in any way shape or form constitute the "majority of people"

In fact, it seems you may have a bit of A Rated home envy

You're clearly having a senior moment then.

Also - where did I say fact? Is this or is this not a discussion forum where people are entitled to give their opinions based on real life observations and experiences?

Sure, a good energy rating would be nice, but I don't know if A rated is actually what I'd want.

I've a period home in a mature location on a large site which I'm gradually improving. I would not swap it for a 3 story terraced rectangular block in an estate for all the energy savings in the world.

sweetie · 09-01-2020 11:31am

Can we get back to the market....please?

Ush1 · 09-01-2020 2:20pm

SozBbz wrote: »

If you read my post, I already said the heating was not on. The house has underfloor heating and we were in our socks (new house, shoes left at the door) so we would have felt it.

It was just having 3 people in the room and using cooking facilities and it became too warm.

Its not the first new house I've noticed this in and other posters have cited it before here.

If you have to open a window to let heat out, the ventilation system isn't working right.

Ush1 · 09-01-2020 2:22pm

cruizer101 wrote: »

An A1 rated house is supposed to use less than 25 kWh/m2/year, so for a 100m2 house that is 2500 kWh/year.

The solar energy that falls on a south facing window ranges between 0.97 and 2.68 kWh/m2/day, though its over 2 for 8 months of year, and average is about 2 (source).
Lets take the average 2, and lets say 10m2 of windows south facing.
Solar Heat Gain Coefficient, SHGC, is factor for amount of solar energy that gets through window typically ranges between 0.3 and 0.5.
2 kWh/m2/day * 10m2 * 0.3 = 6kWh/day solar heat gain, which is over 2000kWh/year in just solar gain.

Add that to other heat sources and its easy to see how it could get too warm in a house and easily warmer than outside.

Making a lot of assumptions there, your solar gains are going to be very different in summer to winter.

Also, how many new builds are A1 rated? If the house is overheating there is a problem with regards ventilation. They are designed to maintain ambient temps which you can set.

Sleepy · 09-01-2020 2:53pm

Ush1 wrote: »

This isn't really much to do with BER which is a poor measurement anyway. If you have to have your window open all the time it's a ventilation or heating controls issue.

Your house shouldn't get too hot, especially in the winter, if it's designed correctly.

My house would have been designed in the 1910's or 20's so you'd be right on that. Effectively the heat escaping from the living room below warms our bedroom which leads to that one room being too hot. Adding additional ventilation to the room isn't an option as we're in an Architectural Conservation Area where drilling new ventilation through the wall wouldn't be an option either (and tbh, why bother when you can just open the window a crack!).

davedub2015 · 09-01-2020 2:55pm

Is this thread about the property market or a rated homes ?? Give it a rest lads set a new thread up

Sweet.Science · 09-01-2020 3:00pm

Would the market for homes under 300k still be as competitive in 2020
Thinking about upsizing at the end of the year
All depends on what i'd get for mine

q85dw7osi4lebg · 09-01-2020 3:06pm

Looking at daft in the past 7 days alone 3 houses in my area have gone sale agreed, these were all on the market over six months, 250-300k bracket in the north east.

Possibly exemptions.

Assetbacked · 09-01-2020 3:07pm

davedub2015 wrote: »

Is this thread about the property market or a rated homes ?? Give it a rest lads set a new thread up

A G-Rated discussion about whether people feel cold in an A-Rated home, unBERable.

Whodanoob · 09-01-2020 5:38pm

Does anyone know how much the houses in the last phase of the Wicklow Hills were? Or how much the next phase might be?

09-01-2020 6:44pm

Is location all that changes from one estate to another these days? I can't see much different in terms of the general design of estates, layouts, etc. all seem very much copy/paste jobs.

Handful of estates look a bit different (there's a couple I've seen in Rush (Dublin) that look a bit different from the usual) but the vast majority seem like duplicates of each other in almost every way.

Mostly a mix of smooth plaster, and red brick, row of Semi-D, often with a detached at each end, mish-mash of some houses having their own driveway and the random terrace of houses that appears beat in along the way that often has shared parked at the front. Lot of houses having the ground floor extension at the back, aswell, albeit with a post-stamp back garden (haven't seen any houses with a big back garden in a long time).

Bewilders me when you see estates being built in Cavan/Monaghan, etc. where the's no shortage of fields and green space, and the houses still have tiny back gardens you can barely put a table out in.

I wonder is it that the dreadful design of many of the trouble estates around the country has been copped onto and this design seems like a neutral one to keep the scummers at bay. Lots of cul de sacs and estates with just one-way-in, one-way-out entrances to avoid through-traffic?

Also haven't seen an estate of just detached houses appearing in a while (at least not in Dublin/Louth/Meath etc. I wonder is that on purpose to try and beat more people into the estates? or is there just no demand for it as the cost would be prohibitive for the benefits.

TheSheriff · 09-01-2020 7:23pm

Viewed our first house of 2020 last night, a modest 3 bed semi in somewhat close proximity to Castleknock (i.e. castleknock in the name, but eircode says different).

It's over out budget, but hasn't been listed online yet and we were first in the door. We went in case it was 'the house'. It was, in my opinion overpriced by about 50K compared with comparable properties in the area......

So while the newspapers are reporting prices are dropping it seems vendors initial expectations are not. I called out the estate agent on a few things last night including the rubbish of having castleknock in the name, the work and cash needed to bring out the 'potential' he kept talking about and his response was the vendor is confident they'll achieve asking....

We wished him luck.

ZX7R · 09-01-2020 7:52pm

TheSheriff wrote: »

Viewed our first house of 2020 last night, a modest 3 bed semi in somewhat close proximity to Castleknock (i.e. castleknock in the name, but eircode says different).

It's over out budget, but hasn't been listed online yet and we were first in the door. We went in case it was 'the house'. It was, in my opinion overpriced by about 50K compared with comparable properties in the area......

So while the newspapers are reporting prices are dropping it seems vendors initial expectations are not. I called out the estate agent on a few things last night including the rubbish of having castleknock in the name, the work and cash needed to bring out the 'potential' he kept talking about and his response was the vendor is confident they'll achieve asking....

We wished him luck.

So what was the asking price

nerrad01 · 09-01-2020 10:41pm

so whats the months that traditionally have the most properties listed? so few places up at the moment

Padre_Pio · 10-01-2020 12:40am

nerrad01 wrote: »

so whats the months that traditionally have the most properties listed? so few places up at the moment

Spring and Autumn.
Houses look great these times of the year.
Harder to sell a house now when it's miserable, cold and all your garden is in bad shape.

Sleepy · 10-01-2020 11:42am

Deleted User wrote: »

Also haven't seen an estate of just detached houses appearing in a while (at least not in Dublin/Louth/Meath etc. I wonder is that on purpose to try and beat more people into the estates? or is there just no demand for it as the cost would be prohibitive for the benefits.

When 10% of the units have to go to social housing, it makes little sense to build an estate of only detached units.

awec · 10-01-2020 11:57am

Sleepy wrote: »

When 10% of the units have to go to social housing, it makes little sense to build an estate of only detached units.

It's nothing to do with social housing. It makes no sense to build detached units because they take up too much space, and space is valuable.

The houses would end up too expensive and the demand wouldn't be there.

Developers don't build social houses for free, they are paid for them.

Sleepy · 10-01-2020 1:02pm

Yes, and in estates where they want to build detached units, it makes more sense to build semi-detached or terraced units for the social housing units in order to save that space for the detached units where higher margins can be achieved thus resulting in a lack of 100% detached unit estates being built.

Graham · 10-01-2020 1:07pm

Most local authorities now have a minimum housing density requirement for planning applications.

awec · 10-01-2020 1:15pm

Sleepy wrote: »

Yes, and in estates where they want to build detached units, it makes more sense to build semi-detached or terraced units for the social housing units in order to save that space for the detached units where higher margins can be achieved thus resulting in a lack of 100% detached unit estates being built.

It is very unlikely that you would see a fully detached development, social housing or no social housing. It would not make sense, except for at the very high end of the market.

Cuddlesworth · 10-01-2020 1:26pm

Graham wrote: »

Most local authorities now have a minimum housing density requirement for planning applications.

100% this. A load of applications get rejected for not being dense enough.

SozBbz · 10-01-2020 1:39pm

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

100% this. A load of applications get rejected for not being dense enough.

This is true. We had one beside us rejected for this reason not so long ago. In DLR for example, they've two measures of density, and both are higher than they would have been pre crash.

There is a standard density requirement and then a higher one if you're 1km or less from major transport infrastructure - the Dart, the Luas or a QBC, so that covers quite a large area.

This probably also answers the question as to why so many new builds look the same.

They've obviously found the optimum design/footprint to meet the density requirements and be profitable, and are just building it over and over again with only minor variables.

awec · 10-01-2020 2:20pm

I wouldn't say new builds look the same at all tbh. There's quite a bit of variety between different developments.

gourcuff · 10-01-2020 3:10pm

Graham wrote: »

Most local authorities now have a minimum housing density requirement for planning applications.

Its more being driven by national planning policy and being implemented strongly by ABP under the SHD process. They have a mandate for higher densities as set out in the Guidelines on Sustainable Residential Development in Urban Areas (2009). Public Transport Corridors are 50 units per ha minimum for example.

10-01-2020 6:54pm

Over the years there has been numerous posts calling for amateur landlords to leave the market to “professionals”, is that what was meant?

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/construction/cairn-sells-229-homes-to-landlord-for-78m-1.4135996?mode=amp

As these are new properties, rents will be set at the very top of the market in order to maximise yield, and automatically increase when regs allow. It will increase availability, but at the highest price and none will be available for purchase by families.

10-01-2020 8:47pm

awec wrote: »

It's nothing to do with social housing. It makes no sense to build detached units because they take up too much space, and space is valuable.

The houses would end up too expensive and the demand wouldn't be there.

Developers don't build social houses for free, they are paid for them.

We are not stuck for space in this country. Drive around a condensed country like holland and they are majority detached houses. Not too big. We have an obsession with square footage in Ireland.

awec · 10-01-2020 9:02pm

Deleted User wrote: »

We are not stuck for space in this country. Drive around a condensed country like holland and they are majority detached houses. Not too big. We have an obsession with square footage in Ireland.

We are not stuck for space but land that can actually be developed for housing is expensive and it does not make sense to fill it full of the lowest possible density housing. Especially in the places that are in high demand.

Ultimately if there was a market for detached houses they'd build them, but the reality is the resulting cost of the houses puts them out of reach of the majority of people.

L1011 · 10-01-2020 9:17pm

Recent detached only estates near me have houses with virtually no gardens front or rear and a passageway between each house that's about wide enough for an adult to squeeze both sides of a wall. You could reach and touch both if the wall wasn't there.

Basically detached in name only - you will still hear noise from next door and so on.

10-01-2020 9:22pm

Where supply is needed and land is most constricted, why we don’t build higher instead of wider is beyond me. Dublin CoCo should be allowing higher.

Padre_Pio · 10-01-2020 11:28pm

Dav010 wrote: »

Where supply is needed and land is most constricted, why we don’t build higher instead of wider is beyond me. Dublin CoCo should be allowing higher.

I agree. I'd prefer not to see hectares of estates around every town, just so people can have the illusion of space. So long as there's decent insulation, a semi detatched is perfect.
Same for apartments. The issue is getting decent sound insulation.

It's depressing driving through the country and seeing miles of one off housing up every hill and road.

Property Market 2020

Comments