Catalan independence referendum, 2017

EagererBeaver · 21-09-2017 3:15pm

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Puigdemont article for the Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/21/catalonia-bloack-catalonia-referendum-rights-mariano-rajoy-carles-puigdemont#comments

The standard propaganda piece. For the international stage, Puigdemont is only delighted to paint this as the big bad boys in Madrid oppressing and robbing the poor, downtrodden Catalans.

eire4 · 21-09-2017 4:38pm

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Puigdemont article for the Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/21/catalonia-bloack-catalonia-referendum-rights-mariano-rajoy-carles-puigdemont#comments

Have to wonder will the heavy handed Madrid approach stepped up in recent days with the arrests for example back fire on them and actually end up increasing support for Catalan independence.. Which seems a very silly policy IMHO as if they just let the Catalans do their thing and vote the vote would more then likely be a no at least according to previous polls I have seen and likely a solid double digit margin in favour of no. But now I would say Madrids approach will likely only strengthen support for independence.

An Ciarraioch · 21-09-2017 4:39pm

Eagerer - surely agreeing a vote would increase the likelihood of a No win, and put the issue to bed? That would also lessen the likelihood of any referendum in the Basque Country.

EagererBeaver · 21-09-2017 5:28pm

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Eagerer - surely agreeing a vote would increase the likelihood of a No win, and put the issue to bed? That would also lessen the likelihood of any referendum in the Basque Country.

Any vote that would declared to be "legally binding" would be illegal. No voters would refuse to accept it and still wouldn't turn out, so no gain for Rajoy doing that.

Other than the fact it could set a precedent, it's too simplistic to draw a line to the Basque question. Basque and Catalan nationalism are really two completely different kettles of fish.

feargale · 21-09-2017 8:25pm

Catalonia has as much, if not more right to independence than Ireland had in the early 20th century, if the Catalans should choose it. Can anybody demonstrate otherwise here? Aragon was independent of Madrid until 1479, and Catalonia regained its separate status for a time in the 17th century.
The days of holding a people against their will should be over. Madrid's response does not compare favourably with Westminster's treatment of Scotland, can only harden attitudes and may ultimately lead to war.

EagererBeaver · 21-09-2017 8:36pm

feargale wrote: »

The days of holding a people against their will should be over.

Your realise the people "being held against their will" constitute a minority of the Catalan population?

An Ciarraioch · 21-09-2017 8:51pm

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Your realise the people "being held against their will" constitute a minority of the Catalan population?

The "overall polls" (including voters from all parties) put Yes ahead more often than not, it would appear:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_referendum%2C_2017

feargale · 21-09-2017 9:40pm

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Your realise the people "being held against their will" constitute a minority of the Catalan population?

Irrelevant. I said "if they choose." Any civilised government would allow them the chance to choose.

I don't presume to know what they will choose, but as sure as hell events of the last few days will not diminish the yes vote. Some people should pay more attention to Irish history. As was said a century ago, "jails are bad denationalisers."

An Ciarraioch · 22-09-2017 5:16pm

Spain's High Court brings charges of sedition against all demonstrators:

http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20170922/431465405340/fiscalia-denuncia-sedicion-referendum-1-o.html

A Little Pony · 22-09-2017 5:32pm

If it is the will of the people in Catalonia then so be it. Put it to the vote.

eire4 · 22-09-2017 6:00pm

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Spain's High Court brings charges of sedition against all demonstrators:

http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20170922/431465405340/fiscalia-denuncia-sedicion-referendum-1-o.html

Wow they could hardly be doing any more to bolster the supporters of Catalan independence and pushing those on the fence into the yes camp if they tried.

EagererBeaver · 22-09-2017 6:24pm

A Little Pony wrote: »

If it is the will of the people in Catalonia then so be it. Put it to the vote.

But it's not? It's the minority of the population.

I want a united Ireland like, but I accept that my view is the minority opinion in the six counties.

recedite · 22-09-2017 7:09pm

EagererBeaver wrote: »

But it's not? It's the minority of the population.

I want a united Ireland like, but I accept that my view is the minority opinion in the six counties.

When you say "minority of the population" do you mean the population of Spain, or the population of Catalonia?
If you mean Spain, then your analogy falls flat on its face, because NI is a separate state.
If you mean Catalonia, then the opinion polls linked a few posts back indicate that you don't know what you are talking about.

lawred2 · 22-09-2017 7:12pm

EagererBeaver wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

If it is the will of the people in Catalonia then so be it. Put it to the vote.

But it's not? It's the minority of the population.

I want a united Ireland like, but I accept that my view is the minority opinion in the six counties.

What? Stop talking balls.

The majority of Catalans want Independence. What population are you referring to?

lawred2 · 22-09-2017 7:14pm

The carry on in Madrid is hardly going to do anything but further strengthen the resolve of Catalans to achieve Independence.

EagererBeaver · 22-09-2017 8:31pm

lawred2 wrote: »

EagererBeaver wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

If it is the will of the people in Catalonia then so be it. Put it to the vote.

But it's not? It's the minority of the population.

I want a united Ireland like, but I accept that my view is the minority opinion in the six counties.

What? Stop talking balls.

The majority of Catalans want Independence. What population are you referring to?

This is an absolute myth. As for stop talking balls, which one of us here actually lives there and has a clue? It's clearly not you. What do you know of Catalan nationalism? Or anti independence sentiment amongst Catalans. Absolutely nothing, that's what.

If there was a legally binding referendum held tomorrow, the no vote would win hands down.

EagererBeaver · 22-09-2017 8:35pm

recedite wrote: »

EagererBeaver wrote: »

But it's not? It's the minority of the population.

I want a united Ireland like, but I accept that my view is the minority opinion in the six counties.

When you say "minority of the population" do you mean the population of Spain, or the population of Catalonia?
If you mean Spain, then your analogy falls flat on its face, because NI is a separate state.
If you mean Catalonia, then the opinion polls linked a few posts back indicate that you don't know what you are talking about.

More absolute bollocks. The north is a self governing entity within the UK. You can argue it's a "country" or "state" all you want - it's no more separate than the autonomous community of Catalunya.

Opinion polls? We'd better ****ing run absolutely everything by opinion polls. I forgot Hilary Clinton was the president of the United States.

eire4 · 22-09-2017 9:00pm

EagererBeaver wrote: »

More absolute bollocks. The north is a self governing entity within the UK. You can argue it's a "country" or "state" all you want - it's no more separate than the autonomous community of Catalunya.

Opinion polls? We'd better ****ing run absolutely everything by opinion polls. I forgot Hilary Clinton was the president of the United States.

Actually the opinion polls in the US were correct. They showed Clinton winning by a small margin of a few percent and that is what happened. However she lost the election because the US election is decided by a voter college not the vote of the actual people.

EagererBeaver · 22-09-2017 10:01pm

Lots out on the streets tonight.

An Ciarraioch · 22-09-2017 10:58pm

Apparently Barca's answer to Patrick's Day today.

EagererBeaver · 22-09-2017 11:03pm

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Apparently Barca's answer to Patrick's Day today.

Barna. Barca refers only to the football team.

It's the Mercè - the annual city wide festival. Each district in the city has a "festa major" every year that goes on for a week or so. The Mercè is the equivalent for the whole city.

EagererBeaver · 23-09-2017 10:26am

Good article here.

http://www.ecfr.eu/article/commentary_three_myths_about_catalonias_independence_movement

FTA69 · 23-09-2017 11:11am

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Good article here.

http://www.ecfr.eu/article/commentary_three_myths_about_catalonias_independence_movement

Looks like a load of PP-style toss to be honest.

Regardless of whether people are convinced about Catalonia or not, one thing that is definite is that the reaction of the Spanish state has been nothing short of a disgrace. Talk about how the referendum is "unconstitutional" is a farce considering that constitution itself was a heavily fascist-influenced document specifically designed to prevent any form of self determination for Catalunya or Euskal Herria. The Catalonian government made umpteen petitions for a referendum which were shot down in Madrid, they are now using their local government machinery to hold the referendum and fair play to them.

In response to this mass exercise in democracy, the Spanish state has basically arrested people for sedition, beaten up people holding meetings, arrested those handing out leaflets and is now preparing to deploy the Guardia (a force up to its neck in torture and murder) onto the streets to prevent people from voting.

As I said above, if you think the notion of Catalonian independence is fanciful then fair enough - but there's no denying that the Spanish state is behaving apallingly.

EagererBeaver · 23-09-2017 12:47pm

The reaction from Madrid has been idiotic and ill thought out from a political perspective. However it has been lawful.

A mass exercise in democracy you say? Yet you denigrate the constitution. The 1978 constitutional referendum passed with 95% approval in Catalunya on 68% turnout. How's that for democracy for you?

FTA69 · 23-09-2017 1:12pm

I do denigrate the constitution because it makes absolutely no provision for change. It's 40 years old; 40 years ago in Scotland sentiment for independence was probably quite low but the situation in 2015 warranted a referendum on the issue. The Catalans have tried and tried to go a legal route and had it rebuffed by a Madrid-based judiciary. A local referendum is the only way to go for them.

Whether the Madrid response is legal or not shouldn't be the only consideration here, there's a difference between morality and legality. Armed police breaking up meetings and thumping people while charging people for handing out leaflets or displaying posters can never be condoned. Madrid has actively and enthusiastically created conditions for violence here and they'll be to blame should any unrest arise.

An Ciarraioch · 23-09-2017 1:30pm

This afternoon, Madrid has taken control of the Catalan regional police (Mossos d'Esquadra) from the Generalitat.

recedite · 23-09-2017 2:32pm

The local Mossos police have been "less than enthusiastic" about cracking down on demonstrators and arresting people for sedition. I think after this change in the control structure, the Guardia Civil will hope to be able to rely more on the local police for back-up as activities hostile to the local population ramp up. Whether that happens, or whether the Mossos will now suffer some kind of "blue flu" has yet to be seen though.

Members of the Catalan National Assembly, a group of separatist activists, set up a security cordon outside the economy department’s headquarters, trapping a Civil Guard squad inside as demonstrators vandalized their vehicles. The Mossos watched impassively for more than 12 hours. On Friday, Spanish prosecutors opened a probe into the events for possible charges of sedition.

Madrid claims the right to seize control of local police;

Article 155 of the Spanish Constitution allows the central government to take control of a regional administration if it poses a threat to the national interest

Also an interesting development is reported in this article, a massive cruise ship called "Rhapsody" has moored in the harbour..

Officials in Madrid have quietly hired cruise ships to moor in the Port of Barcelona as temporary housing as they amass what El Correo newspaper said may be more than 16,000 riot police and other security officers before the planned poll.

EagererBeaver · 23-09-2017 2:32pm

FTA69 wrote: »

I do denigrate the constitution because it makes absolutely no provision for change.

Of course it makes provision for change. Via national referendum. It is the Constitution of Spain, not parts of Spain. I wonder do you hold the same views on the Confederate states seceding during the American Civil War...

EagererBeaver · 23-09-2017 2:57pm

recedite wrote: »

Also an interesting development is reported in this article, a massive cruise ship called "Rhapsody" has moored in the harbour..

Officials in Madrid have quietly hired cruise ships to moor in the Port of Barcelona as temporary housing as they amass what El Correo newspaper said may be more than 16,000 riot police and other security officers before the planned poll.

There are at least 3 of these in the harbour at the minute.

recedite · 23-09-2017 3:34pm

EagererBeaver wrote: »

There are at least 3 of these in the harbour at the minute.

The Brits had a name for it; "Gunboat Diplomacy" :pac:

FTA69 · 24-09-2017 6:36am

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Of course it makes provision for change. Via national referendum. It is the Constitution of Spain, not parts of Spain. I wonder do you hold the same views on the Confederate states seceding during the American Civil War...

Yeah so basically the self-determination of Euskal Herria and Catalonia relies on the Spanish permitting it, which as we've seen will never happen. That's literally the equivalent of a Scottish referendum going ahead only if people from England tolerate it, there's a word for that.

Your analogy with the Confederates is ridiculous and inaccurate for a variety of reasons. A far better one would be Ireland in 1918, do you think the British state was entitled to declare the Dáil illegal and arrest those associated with it?

EagererBeaver · 24-09-2017 11:07am

You're waffling completely - nobody in Madrid has declared the Generalitat illegal

Either you don't know your history or you're attempting to manipulate facts for the emotional impact it has by bringing Ireland into it.

EagererBeaver · 24-09-2017 11:13am

FTA69 wrote: »

Yeah so basically the self-determination of Euskal Herria and Catalonia relies on the Spanish permitting it, which as we've seen will never happen. That's literally the equivalent of a Scottish referendum going ahead only if people from England tolerate it, there's a word for that.

You realise the Scottish referendum was negotiated and agreed with the national government in Westminster?

FTA69 · 24-09-2017 2:55pm

You're the one drawing analogies between Catalonia and a 150-year old war fought in America over slavery but I'm waffling? Lol.

Comparisons with Ireland are perfectly valid. Ireland too was once in a unitary state of various national traditions and after being denied self determination they asserted it themselves.

In 2015 in Scotland the British government realised there was a large question over the issue and facilitated a referendum on the issue after the Scottish parliament called for it. What they didn't do was shout and roar about the indivisibility of the UK, arrest the SNP, shut down the Daily Record and then send in the cops to beat up anyone talking about it. The Catalan government has made repeated attempts to do this via the legal channels but have been rejected because of a Spanish establishment rooted in "Una España" b*llocks. They are full entitled to hold the referendum themselves in the face of this nonsense; as would have been the Scots had they been up against the same sort of carry-on.

You either believe in the right to self-determination or you don't; and if you do then you do then there has to be some sympathy for the Catalans and criticism of the Spanish state and their actions.

FTA69 · 24-09-2017 2:59pm

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/c12596c0-a06f-11e7-9e4f-7f5e6a7c98a2

In their latest move, the Spanish government has now wrested control of the local police force and placed it under a single commander in the form of some apparatchik. Hopefully the local police officers will display an ounce of integrity and refuse to comply with orders given to them but I wouldn't bank on it.

EagererBeaver · 24-09-2017 3:31pm

FTA69 wrote: »

You either believe in the right to self-determination or you don't; and if you do then you do then there has to be some sympathy for the Catalans and criticism of the Spanish state and their actions.

I'd wager most people believe in self determination - that does not give the independence leaders the right to break their own parliamentary rules (how does that fit with your democratic ideals?) to rush through legislation to pave the way for the referendum. It does not give them the right to continue to pursue the referendum (and fund it through the public purse) after it has been declared unconstitutional.

The independence leaders are a shower of deceitful bastards. They have spent decades lining their own pockets as protégés of Pujol. They are lying to the public about the post independence utopian future where they'll just walk into the EU as if nobody had noticed, very similar to the Brexit lies spun by the Leave campaign. People continue to buy the myths here that the Madrid Government is persecuting the independence leaders left, right and centre. Attacking judicial rulings etc (it was the judiciary who ordered the raids on Wednesday morning) is again exactly what has happened with Brexit.

recedite · 24-09-2017 3:37pm

EagererBeaver wrote: »

The independence leaders are a shower of deceitful bastards. They have spent decades lining their own pockets as prots of Pujol. They are lying to the public about the post independence utopian future where they'll just walk into the EU as if nobody had noticed, very similar to the Brexit lies spun by the Leave campaign. People continue to buy the myths here that the Madrid Government is persecuting the independence leaders left, right and centre.

Seems like you don't have much respect for the locals there, because you are the only one that understands what is going on.
Its a typical expat kind of attitude.

EagererBeaver · 24-09-2017 4:04pm

recedite wrote: »

EagererBeaver wrote: »

The independence leaders are a shower of deceitful bastards. They have spent decades lining their own pockets as prots of Pujol. They are lying to the public about the post independence utopian future where they'll just walk into the EU as if nobody had noticed, very similar to the Brexit lies spun by the Leave campaign. People continue to buy the myths here that the Madrid Government is persecuting the independence leaders left, right and centre.

Seems like you don't have much respect for the locals there, because you are the only one that understands what is going on.
Its a typical expat kind of attitude.

Whereas you, living nowhere near it, with no understanding of Catalan culture or nationality, or local politics and issues, sitting at home behind your keyboard, are uniquely more qualified to comment?

You don't have a clue what you're on about. You say "the locals" and have no idea what that means. Being Catalan is not the same as being pro independence.

Away back to complaining about Islam with you. Actually, why don't you come to Barcelona and complain to all the second and third generation Arabs you can find (hint: there are lots of them) and complain about Islam AND independence.

An Ciarraioch · 24-09-2017 6:38pm

EagererBeaver wrote: »

You realise the Scottish referendum was negotiated and agreed with the national government in Westminster?

Unfortunately, it took Westminster about 100 years to get the message that the best means to counter a nationalist campaign is through the ballot box, rather than by ignoring those involved. The comparisons with Ireland are pertinent, because despite repeated success for the Home Rule Party, self-government was vetoed by UK-wide results, and thereby the British Constitution. It's most unlikely that the Catalan situation will become radicalised to that degree, but unless both sides move back from the brink, next Monday could prove extremely volatile.

recedite · 24-09-2017 7:08pm

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Actually, why don't you come to Barcelona and complain to all the second and third generation Arabs you can find (hint: there are lots of them) and complain about Islam AND independence.

I have visited Barcelona and enjoyed my ramble down Las Ramblas. Catalan culture is something worth preserving IMO, but I can best help with that by staying where I am. Barcelona is crowded enough with foreigners already.

A lot of Europeans find the actions of the Madrid govt. baffling, but we should remember that Franco's fascists were never defeated. They just mellowed over time. The current generation of islamo-fascists that have infiltrated Europe are no better than those 1930's fascists (and please note that I do not include in that description any "second and third generation Arabs" that have successfully integrated into European/Spanish/Catalan culture; these are all valued citizens.
On the other hand, you living among the Catalans, are in danger of acting as part of some Fifth Column which seeks to undermine their culture from within.

Anyhow, I suggest we cease sniping at each other, and focus instead on posting here any interesting news snippets or other info that either of us finds.

oscarBravo · 24-09-2017 7:26pm

recedite wrote: »

...(and please note that I do not include in that description any "second and third generation Arabs" that have successfully integrated into European/Spanish/Catalan culture; these are all valued citizens.
On the other hand, you living among the Catalans, are in danger of acting as part of some Fifth Column which seeks to undermine their culture from within.

I'm puzzled as to how anyone can ever get to be a second or third generation valued citizen if any member of the first generation is reflexively condemned as a fifth columnist.

recedite · 24-09-2017 7:33pm

Its quite possible to move to another country because you like what that country stands for, and have the intention of integrating.

It can also work the other way. There are loads of examples in the UK of second and third generation British Asians who have adopted islamic styles of dress and become sympathetic to radical Islamists, while their own parent's generation always dressed in western clothes and enjoyed going to the pub for a pint with the locals.

An Ciarraioch · 24-09-2017 8:03pm

recedite wrote: »

Its quite possible to move to another country because you like what that country stands for, and have the intention of integrating.

It can also work the other way. There are loads of examples in the UK of second and third generation British Asians who have adopted islamic styles of dress and become sympathetic to radical Islamists, while their own parent's generation always dressed in western clothes and enjoyed going to the pub for a pint with the locals.

The upsurge in dual citizenship shown in last year's Census suggests we are at least tentatively moving towards successful integration - certainly if someone takes the trouble to pursue this, they're highly likely to learn the language and play roles in their new communities.

An Ciarraioch · 24-09-2017 8:49pm

And now the Basques are joining in:

https://www.yahoo.com/amphtml/news/basque-leader-urges-madrid-allow-independence-votes-162831188.html

A Little Pony · 24-09-2017 10:25pm

EagererBeaver wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

If it is the will of the people in Catalonia then so be it. Put it to the vote.

But it's not? It's the minority of the population.

I want a united Ireland like, but I accept that my view is the minority opinion in the six counties.

Put it to the vote then. Let the people in that region decide. It happened in Scotland and they decided to remain in the UK. I have my own doubts on just how it would function as a country outside of Spain.

EagererBeaver · 25-09-2017 12:59am

recedite wrote: »

A lot of Europeans find the actions of the Madrid govt. baffling, but we should remember that Franco's fascists were never defeated. They just mellowed over time. The current generation of islamo-fascists that have infiltrated Europe are no better than those 1930's fascists (and please note that I do not include in that description any "second and third generation Arabs" that have successfully integrated into European/Spanish/Catalan culture; these are all valued citizens.

On the other hand, you living among the Catalans, are in danger of acting as part of some Fifth Column which seeks to undermine their culture from within.

This is amazing. You actually don't have a ****ing clue what you're on about pontificating about Franco and fascism.

Rajoy heads up a PP minority government and is thus in no position to push through this radical right wing agenda you appear to think they possess. PSOE, Podemos and C's all oppose Catalan independence as well.

I support their right for self determination, but it had to be both democratic and legal. There appears to be this idea that this is "democracy in action" when in reality, the pro independence Catalan Govern (which is made up of several parties with significantly differing political views on other topics apart from independence) have run roughshod over their own parliamentary rules, the statute of autonomy that gives them legitimacy and the Constitution that was approved by an overwhelming majority of the population. There is nothing democratic about this referendum at all.

recedite · 25-09-2017 9:31am

EagererBeaver wrote: »

I support their right for self determination, but it had to be both democratic and legal....
.. There is nothing democratic about this referendum at all.

A referendum is, by definition, democratic.

Can you roughly sketch out your ideas for any possible alternative road map open to them that would have been "both democratic and legal"?

Peregrinus · 25-09-2017 9:45am

recedite wrote: »

A referendum is, by definition, democratic.

Well, do you consider the referenda conducted by Adolf Hitler democratic?

josip · 25-09-2017 9:55am

EagererBeaver wrote: »

This is amazing. You actually don't have a ****ing clue what you're on about pontificating about Franco and fascism.

Rajoy heads up a PP minority government and is thus in no position to push through this radical right wing agenda you appear to think they possess. PSOE, Podemos and C's all oppose Catalan independence as well.

I support their right for self determination, but it had to be both democratic and legal. There appears to be this idea that this is "democracy in action" when in reality, the pro independence Catalan Govern (which is made up of several parties with significantly differing political views on other topics apart from independence) have run roughshod over their own parliamentary rules, the statute of autonomy that gives them legitimacy and the Constitution that was approved by an overwhelming majority of the population. There is nothing democratic about this referendum at all.

Eagerer, I have a very simplistic view of the quest for independence based on mainstream media, some history I may not remember correctly and a very interesting fiction novel set in the time that Franco was putting locals in the prison up on the hill. Can you perhaps correct any of the following things I thought to be correct please? (genuine question)

Most Catalans don't/didn't like Franco
Many Catalans associate the Madrid government with a continuation of Franco's rule.
Catalans contribute more financially than they take from Spain's budget.
Catalonia is thus subsidising the other regions (may not be the only region subsidising).
According to the constitution Catalonia cannot legally have a referendum and leave Spain unless a majority of the other regions agree.
Why would any of the regions agree to Catalonia leaving if it's going to impact them negatively financially.
Their isn't any way Catalonia can ever legally leave Spain.
If this was happening at an individual level where somebody agreed to join a religious organisation and some years later they wanted to leave, but weren't allowed to by the other members. If the other members continued to coerce them into contributing a percentage of their income annually, would that be fair?

LeinsterDub · 25-09-2017 10:05am

recedite wrote: »

A referendum is, by definition, democratic.

Can you roughly sketch out your ideas for any possible alternative road map open to them that would have been "both democratic and legal"?

Referendums, unless very carefully crafted and targeted are often highly undemocratic. Biases or loaded wording , unfair campaigning and gerrymandering are all major issues to name a few

Catalan independence referendum, 2017

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