Corporal punishment

Kylta · 06-06-2020 4:35pm #1

I'm at the age when corporal punishment in schools had been in its dying stages. I'm wondering what opinions people have on this.
If it have stayed would kids in this age be differen. Would they be more respectful to their elders.
My opinion is that I don't think it would have change anybodys opinion.
Oh just for the record.
I was boxed in the ears, lifted up by the ears. Hit with a wooden duster, slapped across the fingers with a wooden dowel, smacked with a hurley. But some of the kids got worst hidding than others. No only by christian brothers a lot of the teachers were sadist too. Your opinion on weather it was a good thing or not

endacl · 06-06-2020 4:37pm

Absolutely wasn’t a good idea. Absolutely right to abolish it.

Treppen · 06-06-2020 4:39pm

Ya as a teacher I can say that it is not really a good teaching method.

Kylta · 06-06-2020 4:41pm

endacl wrote: »

Absolutely wasn’t a good idea. Absolutely right to abolish it.

I agree.
But you will often hear people moan about the teachers been to lenient. The older the person moaning the more you'll hear the Christian brothers would've put manners on them

JL555 · 06-06-2020 4:44pm

Ah good ol' corporal punishment, I remember it well. Have the scars (literally) to remind me.

Kylta · 06-06-2020 4:52pm

Treppen wrote: »

Ya as a teacher I can say that it is not really a good teaching method.

We weren't really taught lessons. The lessons were bet into you. Its was a kind of mantra, everybody spoke the answers to questions but many never really knew what the answers meant

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! · 06-06-2020 4:53pm

My dad was battered and abused by a perverted teacher. Absolutely not.

Str8outtaWuhan · 06-06-2020 5:02pm

depends. If you consider humans to be somehow superior to other mammals then CP is abhorrent. If we are no different than other mammals then pain and re-enforcement are the best teachers, that's simple science.

banie01 · 06-06-2020 5:08pm

Kylta wrote: »

If it have stayed would kids in this age be differen. Would they be more respectful to their elders.

Corporal punishment doesn't imbue respect.

Fear of punishment, and offering deference because of it is not respect!
It's fear, I'd recommend learning to understand the difference before yearning for a return to bearing children.

As to children being more respectful, respect is earned.

I do agree that some children could do with better moral standards, and manners.
Those are learned at home however, and not by being beaten into children.

I don't agree that the youth these days are any more "disrespectful" than I was 25yrs ago.
Just far, far more visible and reported on.

Kylta · 06-06-2020 5:15pm

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

depends. If you consider humans to be somehow superior to other mammals then CP is abhorrent. If we are no different than other mammals then pain and re-enforcement are the best teachers, that's simple science.

Living life through the the inflection off pain changes who we are has humans, we don't possess empathy, sympathy, caring loving etc. The answer then to everything is pain and fear

Kylta · 06-06-2020 5:19pm

banie01 wrote: »

Corporal punishment doesn't imbue respect.

Fear of punishment, and offering deference because of it is not respect!
It's fear, I'd recommend learning to understand the difference before yearning for a return to bearing children.

As to children being more respectful, respect is earned.

I do agree that some children could do with better moral standards, and manners.
Those are learned at home however, and not by being beaten into children.

I don't agree that the youth these days are any more "disrespectful" than I was 25yrs ago.
Just far, far more visible and reported on.

I think the youth these days are more opened to the views of the world. I.e. drugs fashion cars etc. Some to show a certain persona have no respect for their own, there respect lays with the people they hang around with.

completedit · 06-06-2020 5:21pm

No, what really good did it do? Were those who came under the thumb of corporal punishment better and more upstanding citizens than the ones who came after? I highly doubt it. There's a lot of things we can do to educate children in society and to teach them values and morals but smacking them over the ear is not one of them.

If anything, the idea that physical violence is a legitimate form of punishment, is detrimental and leads to an eye for an eye approach. Kid does something bad. Wallop. Wife speaks out of turn. Wallop. Get into an argument. Wallop.

whisky_galore · 06-06-2020 5:22pm

All it teaches is that it's ok to hit people smaller and weaker than you are.

banie01 · 06-06-2020 5:24pm

Kylta wrote: »

I think the youth these days are more opened to the views of the world. I.e. drugs fashion cars etc. Some to show a certain persona have no respect for their own, there respect lays with the people they hang around with.

You have a very narrow and sadly in the vast majority of cases distorted view of the youth of Ireland.

For every video of "feral" teens, there are far more young people striving to bring about positive change in their communities through local youth services and comhairle organisations.

A major component of Transition Year has become social placement, volunteering and activism.
Our young people are more responsible, adaptable and aware along with being better educated than ever before.
They are a force for positive change.

But...

They are still young, so let's not get too hung up on their "lack" of respect and remember the stupid things that they do, are part and parcel of learning and growing.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 06-06-2020 5:25pm

What it did was weed out all the substandard teachers.

If you can communicate with kids without hitting them, great. If not, stay away from teaching.

kowloon · 06-06-2020 5:27pm

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

depends. If you consider humans to be somehow superior to other mammals then CP is abhorrent. If we are no different than other mammals then pain and re-enforcement are the best teachers, that's simple science.

You don't need to inflict pain to teach a cat or dog either. There are lots of ways to use the carrot and not the rod.

06-06-2020 5:29pm

Kylta wrote: »

I'm at the age when corporal punishment in schools had been in its dying stages. I'm wondering what opinions people have on this.

I'd suggest doing a search. The topic has come up a few times before.... If you're looking for peoples opinions, that is.

mr_fegelien · 06-06-2020 5:31pm

I don't know what you make of it but my cousins in Africa were (and the youngest still is) beaten by my aunt. They're pretty successful (one is a singer).

I'm definitely not saying that you need to be beaten to be successful in life/not end up on the wrong path as I know many people in Ireland whose parents never laid a finger on them.

But maybe my cousins would have been better people if my aunt/uncle had learned modern techniques of discipline.

Kylta · 06-06-2020 5:40pm

banie01 wrote: »

You have a very narrow and sadly in the vast majority of cases distorted view of the youth of Ireland.

For every video of "feral" teens, there are far more young people striving to bring about positive change in their communities through local youth services and comhairle organisations.

A major component of Transition Year has become social placement, volunteering and activism.
Our young people are more responsible, adaptable and aware along with being better educated than ever before.
They are a force for positive change.

But...

They are still young, so let's not get too hung up on their "lack" of respect and remember the stupid things that they do, are part and parcel of learning and growing.

I curious to where you live and where all this volunteering comes from? I don't see any of it where I live. And im well in touch with whats going on around me. Fours weeks ago I was at a funeral where one child gutted another youth with a knife. Its good to say the youth are all volunteering for good but I don't see it. By the way when I was growing up has a youth I hung around with maybe 35/50 teens around the area and nobody volunteered then. I speak up for the youth when I see them do what I think is right for their community. But I'd never base my views on what youths are doing volunteering in other areas or counties

Mad_maxx · 07-06-2020 2:59pm

its not a good idea , my partner and i have never once hit either of our children either , we do lock them in their bedroom for two minutes if they are petulant to an unreasonable degree , they then get a talking to afterwards about why they were punished , we call it a TIME OUT

hitting children debases you and them

Str8outtaWuhan · 07-06-2020 5:44pm

kowloon wrote: »

You don't need to inflict pain to teach a cat or dog either. There are lots of ways to use the carrot and not the rod.

of course not, but again dogs inflict pain on other dogs to teach, same with cats and every other mammal. You are looking at humans through the prism of some type of superior entity, as opposed to just being another mammal.

Treppen · 08-06-2020 9:24am

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

of course not, but again dogs inflict pain on other dogs to teach, same with cats and every other mammal. You are looking at humans through the prism of some type of superior entity, as opposed to just being another mammal.

That's cos humans are superior!
Ever seen a cat program using C++. ?

lazygal · 08-06-2020 9:28am

If you hit your children you've failed as a parent. It's as simple as that.

seamus · 08-06-2020 9:49am

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

depends. If you consider humans to be somehow superior to other mammals then CP is abhorrent. If we are no different than other mammals then pain and re-enforcement are the best teachers, that's simple science.

If it's simple science, you'll be well able to explain it to us then.

How does pain/reinforcement teach mammals to do things? And how is it superior to reward/reinforcement methods?

Do you believe that pain/reinforcement should be the driving method behind all teaching, even for behaviours that we view as desirable? If so, how do you resolve the problem of continuous underperformance when punishment is used as a motivator?

What peer-reviewed papers do you recommend on this topic if someone wishes to learn more?

Bobblehats · 08-06-2020 10:51am

I think mid nineties it seemed to go from teachers beating on pupils the opposite almost overnight? I think there should at least be a middle ground, a trade off. A slugfest to the death on neutral territory

Church on Tuesday · 08-06-2020 11:05am

Violence in the home should end too.

There is no excuse for hitting a child.

the beer revolu · 08-06-2020 11:50am

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

Violence in the home should end too.

There is no excuse for hitting a child.

Surely a sound walloping is a good way to teach children not to hit others?:D

08-06-2020 11:57am

Kylta wrote: »

If it have stayed would kids in this age be differen. Would they be more respectful to their elders.

Hard to say as quite often fear and respect manifest the same way and it is hard to tell which one a person - let alone a child - is actually feeling in any given relationship.

I can only speak for myself but even from a very young age I suffered only massive losses in respect for anyone who required violence to get their way.

I have always felt without being told that violence is what happens when discipline and intellect and empathy all fail you. Especially in the context of an adult raising or guiding a child in their growth - parents teacher or otherwise.

My recent work with young "trouble" teenagers - mostly boys - has been with a mix of kids who have both quite violent and quite pacifistic parents. And it was not the use of violence or the lack of it that had brought them to an extreme disrespect of society and adults. Nor was it the use of violence or the lack of it I would credit for how far I have helped bring them since.

Kylta · 08-06-2020 3:41pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Hard to say as quite often fear and respect manifest the same way and it is hard to tell which one a person - let alone a child - is actually feeling in any given relationship.

I can only speak for myself but even from a very young age I suffered only massive losses in respect for anyone who required violence to get their way.

I have always felt without being told that violence is what happens when discipline and intellect and empathy all fail you. Especially in the context of an adult raising or guiding a child in their growth - parents teacher or otherwise.

My recent work with young "trouble" teenagers - mostly boys - has been with a mix of kids who have both quite violent and quite pacifistic parents. And it was not the use of violence or the lack of it that had brought them to an extreme disrespect of society and adults. Nor was it the use of violence or the lack of it I would credit for how far I have helped bring them since.

I was involved in a youth club and community stuff years ago. The club we ran catered for kids between 6-,16 boys and girls. As I post this i'm thinking back and I wonder how some of the kids got through the sh!t they had to deal with in this life. I mean the area was rough but my first thought is you look after your own. But some parents are absolute animals who exploited their children for all ends, mothers running their children around with heroin deals (turning some of them in later years into pushers). A father raping all his kids boys and girls.( some which later died from overdoses ). Sometimes when you look at life it can be very unfair. A lot of the time the environment that the child lives in destroys them.

09-06-2020 7:23am

Kylta wrote: »

A lot of the time the environment that the child lives in destroys them. .

The kids I started my "Jedi school" thing for were local trouble makers. And their environment was merely one of neglect. In some cases the neglect is due to parents who simply did not give a crap and were happy to be violent on their kids. In some cases it was parents who really did care but were simply failing due to life's other demands and would never lift a hand of violence to their kids.

Either way the effect was the same. The parents due to desperation or not giving a crap were always sending their teen kids out to "Go play with your friends" just basically wanting them out of the house the whole time. And with a lack of direction - guidance - and parenting the kids just started turning into "scrotes" as people call them on boards. And quite bad at that. No respect for authority or society or people. Which is why I do not think the OPs question is easily answered. Violence alone in parenting or schooling is not going to foster more respect.

And when I got involved it was a shock to me just how little it actually took for me to turn them around. They turned out to be lovely kids in many ways. I call them "my jedi" because of the Jedi Curriculum we used to engage them. And the last big thing I was involved in with them was helping get supplies to little old people when Covid hit.

But if that was just neglect really - I can but imagine what drugs and sexual abuse and other factors like you described can result in.

_Brian · 09-06-2020 7:51am

Corporal punishment was the order of the day when I was in national school, all but one year there we were treated very harshly.
I’m left handed and for the first few years was beaten every day and forced to write right handed. It was brutal and merciless on a young child.

Teaching children that violence is the way to solve problems isn’t a good thing.

machiavellianme · 09-06-2020 8:10am

I think it has its place.
There's no reason for it in school or the home but the amount of repeat offences committed by some thugs today makes me wonder about it in the penal system. Any more than 3 offences and it should be a flogging. These people know no different. If they can't function in society through respect, let them react to it through fear. They have no problem intimidating fear into decent folk. They also have no problem breaking into or stealing other people's property or resorting to violence and racking up convictions seems to be some sort of badge of honour. Jail, detention, etc. do not appear to be an effective means of dissuasion and fines are pointless for people of no means.

TheBoyConor · 09-06-2020 8:36am

Is this really what you want us to go back to? Children flogged asunder.....

https://youtu.be/xPASp69LrBI?t=268

TheBoyConor · 09-06-2020 8:45am

What peer-reviewed papers do you recommend on this topic if someone wishes to learn more?

This always annoys me when people wheel it out on here. This is a forum on the internet - not a university. No-one is going doing a literature review to back up their whimsically formed opinions on a message board.
Always strikes me as someone who is losing the arguement so they then go looking to be proven wrong.

Junkyard Tom · 09-06-2020 9:37am

'My parents battered the shite out of me and it never did me any harm, Lol'

Adolph Hitler.

Heart Break Kid · 09-06-2020 9:42am

Treppen wrote: »

Ya as a teacher I can say that it is not really a good teaching method.

speaking from experience of corporal punishment teaching methods?

CrankyHaus · 09-06-2020 9:49am

I've heard stories from Teachers of some kids that got battered by their parents after the teachers reported the child's bad behaviour to them.

These kids were not well behaved in the first place, the children who weren't battered generally were.
So clearly corporal punishment is a very poor method of encouraging good behaviour in a child.

Kylta · 09-06-2020 3:13pm

I think if you look back you could honestly say that CP was used a tool by educators (don't want to called them teachers) who were most probably frustated with the inability to teach children (which is still does not justify the brutality). If you were anyway slow or maybe suffered with ADHD or special needs well the answer was to punish you for these short coming. Where the teachers today look for these problem and deal with them through the proper channels.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 09-06-2020 6:38pm

Heart Break Kid wrote: »

speaking from experience of corporal punishment teaching methods?

Someties, you don't need to experience something to know it's not really a good idea.

Corporal punishment

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