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23-01-2021, 22:50   #1
PTH2009
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House of Orange Question

Just a quick question

The house of orange which was/is massive in Northern Irish history with King Williams victory at the battle of the boyne but i often hear about a supportive South African connection with Orange/unionest sides in Northern Ireland. throughout the last few centuries. I imagine it's something to do with the Dutch/afrikaner heritage in South Africa.

Does anyone know the actual history and connection they have ?
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25-01-2021, 07:50   #2
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Orange is a town in southern France, about 20 km from Avignon.

It's a pretty small place now, but back in the twelfth century it was something of a regional centre. There was a Count of Orange who ran things locally, who by 1163 had become wealthy enough, or powerful enough, or had licked enough arses, to be promoted by the Emperor to become Prince of Orange, ruling over (and collecting taxes from) a small part of what is now France, centred around the town of Orange.

The title was hereditary, and could be inherited by a woman. The family of the Princes of Orange were known as the House of Orange. In the late fourteenh century, the title passed to Princess Mary, who married John, Lord of Chalons-Arlay, another small state. Their son John inherited both Orange and Chalons-Orlay, and thereafter the family was known as the House of Orange-Chalons.

In the 16th century a female member of the family, Claudia, married Henry of Nassau, who ruled a largish chunk of what is now the Netherlands. Nassau was a much larger and more important place and Orange, so she married well. She and Henry had a son, Rene. Her elder brother Philibert was Prince of Orange and, when he died childless, Rene was his heir. Rene thus became Prince of Orange and, when his own father died, Prince of Nassau also. Thereafter the family was known as the House of Orange-Nassau. They continued to live in Nassau, but ruled over Orange as well until the early eighteenth century, when they sold it to France.

William of Orange-Nassau, known to us as William of Orange, was a member of this family. He married Mary Stuart, daughter of King James II of England/VI of Scotland. When James was deposed, William and Mary were invited to take the throne in his place. Thus the House of Orange-Nassau became the ruling house of England and Scotland.

(But not for long, since William and Mary died childless and the throne passed to Mary's sister Anne, a Stuart, and from her to George I, a Hanover.)

Meanwhile the House of Orange-Nassau continued to rule large chunks of the Netherlands and, when the Kingdom of the Netherlands was established in 1815 the first King, William 1, was a member of the House of Orange-Nassau. The House of Orange-Nassau is still the royal house of the Netherlands.

The connection with South Africa is that there were Dutch colonies, and Dutch settlers established there and the name "Orange" was carried there as, e.g. the name of a river, in the name of the Orange Free State, etc, etc. But this happened long after the House of Orange's rather brief involvement in British (and Irish) history, so it's not the foundation for any link between Ireland/NI and South Africa. Any linkage between certain strands of loyalism and Afrikaner politics is simply based on a shared liking for extreme right-wing politics and a shared affinity for racism, and has nothing to do with the House of Orange.
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25-01-2021, 15:20   #3
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Thanks for that, They kind of have the same political philosophys

Kind of funny that it was actually a Dutch king that began the birth of the troubles
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25-01-2021, 15:27   #4
 
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It has nothing to do with me, just so everybody knows. I just liked the name 'Wilhelm', and I decided to throw a few 'I's in there - because I also like Roman Numerals, a couple of days ago I realised my username very closely resembles this very man's name.

NOTHING TO DO WITH ME!
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28-01-2021, 06:15   #5
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Thanks for that, They kind of have the same political philosophys

Kind of funny that it was actually a Dutch king that began the birth of the troubles
William of Orange was also alleged to be homosexual and more than just friends with William Bentinck who became Earl of Portland and Arnold Van Keppel who became Earl of Albemarle.
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08-02-2021, 01:13   #6
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There’s a bit more to it than what’s mentioned above. In the early 16th century the Spanish Netherlands ( current Belgium, Netherlands and a good chunk of Northern France ) were under the rule of Emperor Charles V. Roll on the early 16th century and rampant corruption in the Empire and the Catholic Church. People were getting fed up and started to publicly disagree, including some clergy and theologians, the best known among them probably Luther and Calvin.

Anyway, due to the availability of a dangerous piece of technology called the printing press the new dangerous ideas spread like wildfire ultimately leading to the Iconoclastic Fury in the Netherlands and the implementation of the Spanish Inquisition by the Emperor.

One can imagine that all this did not happen without a fight and quite some bloodshed and warfare. Anyway after decades of slaughter, pillaging, alliance and betrayal the Spanish had control over the Southern Netherlands ( roughly the current country of Belgium and the utmost northwestern departments of modern France ). Thorough ethnic cleansing had practically cleared this region of Protestants who had sought refuge and safety North of the great rivers of Scheldt, Meuse and Rhine.

Their military position, especially their naval prowess ( Water Geuzen, Sea Beggars ) had made their position quite strong, too strong for an empire balancing on the edge of bankruptcy to successfully attack.

In that Protestant controlled territory William of Orange-Nassau ( the Taciturn ) who was politically very prominent even before all the turmoil and religiously a bit of a lukewarm Lutheran had been pushed to the fore as head of state by the real power, the Calvinist elite, as a compromise figure who would be palatable to the powerful German Lutheran nobility and other non Habsburg nobility.

This explains the South African / Afrikaner connection; the Dutch East Indies company would subsequently become the first European entity to establish a substantial colony in the Cape, principally for ship repair and resupply with fresh water and food on their voyages to and from the Dutch East Indies. Now that food was grown by farmers, boer in Dutch.

William the Taciturn as any good nobleman in his time made sure he had offspring to carry on the bloodlines which through his fifteenth ( yes 15th ) legitimate child lead to the birth of who’d become William III, Prince of Orange and defacto head of state of the Netherlands and also King Billy of England, Scotland and Ireland through marriage and a bit of rather well documented disagreement in the family.
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08-02-2021, 07:17   #7
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Just one nitpick: the food in the VOC Cape Colony wasn't grown by farmers; it was grown by slaves. The farmers just organised it.

Slavery wasn't abolished in the Cape Colony until 1834 (by which time the British were running the show).
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19-02-2021, 07:49   #8
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Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
Orange is a town in southern France, about 20 km from Avignon.

It's a pretty small place now, but back in the twelfth century it was something of a regional centre. There was a Count of Orange who ran things locally, who by 1163 had become wealthy enough, or powerful enough, or had licked enough arses, to be promoted by the Emperor to become Prince of Orange, ruling over (and collecting taxes from) a small part of what is now France, centred around the town of Orange.

The title was hereditary, and could be inherited by a woman. The family of the Princes of Orange were known as the House of Orange. In the late fourteenh century, the title passed to Princess Mary, who married John, Lord of Chalons-Arlay, another small state. Their son John inherited both Orange and Chalons-Orlay, and thereafter the family was known as the House of Orange-Chalons.

In the 16th century a female member of the family, Claudia, married Henry of Nassau, who ruled a largish chunk of what is now the Netherlands. Nassau was a much larger and more important place and Orange, so she married well. She and Henry had a son, Rene. Her elder brother Philibert was Prince of Orange and, when he died childless, Rene was his heir. Rene thus became Prince of Orange and, when his own father died, Prince of Nassau also. Thereafter the family was known as the House of Orange-Nassau. They continued to live in Nassau, but ruled over Orange as well until the early eighteenth century, when they sold it to France.

William of Orange-Nassau, known to us as William of Orange, was a member of this family. He married Mary Stuart, daughter of King James II of England/VI of Scotland. When James was deposed, William and Mary were invited to take the throne in his place. Thus the House of Orange-Nassau became the ruling house of England and Scotland.

(But not for long, since William and Mary died childless and the throne passed to Mary's sister Anne, a Stuart, and from her to George I, a Hanover.)

Meanwhile the House of Orange-Nassau continued to rule large chunks of the Netherlands and, when the Kingdom of the Netherlands was established in 1815 the first King, William 1, was a member of the House of Orange-Nassau. The House of Orange-Nassau is still the royal house of the Netherlands.

The connection with South Africa is that there were Dutch colonies, and Dutch settlers established there and the name "Orange" was carried there as, e.g. the name of a river, in the name of the Orange Free State, etc, etc. But this happened long after the House of Orange's rather brief involvement in British (and Irish) history, so it's not the foundation for any link between Ireland/NI and South Africa. Any linkage between certain strands of loyalism and Afrikaner politics is simply based on a shared liking for extreme right-wing politics and a shared affinity for racism, and has nothing to do with the House of Orange.
Great post except for the last sentence which is both wrong and unnecessary.
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