Putting other half on mortgage and deeds (gay!)

cardinal tetra · 10-08-2020 9:19pm #1

Hi

Quick breakdown. Me and other half bought a house 7 years ago ( pair of gays!)
I was on contract work at the time so only my partner went on.
We opened a joint account for the mortgage and ploughed on fine.

Cut to 2020 and we are doing an detention so now is the perfect time to go on the deeds and the mortgage.
As we are remortgaging, the whole thing is being treated as like a new mortgage. That's fine and it's all gone through.
Solicitor rings and says here's the options to get around stamp duty.

1. Do a tenancy agreement in a 1 to 99 or 1 to 9 which at 1% of the mortgage gives an interest in the property to me but only a share of it, not 50 50 as we would like the split to be.

2. Pay stamp and go 50 50 but I'd incur capital acquisitions tax in the region of 50k. To go on the deeds of my own effin house!

3. Get married. Not happening. And we are ready to go for the start of September with build so wouldn't be an option anyway.

Surely 2 lads living together 7 years in the same house paying 800 a month each equally into a joint account that the mortgage comes out of I should be entitled to just go on the deeds as a cohabitant withoutt the need to pay c.a.t,

I'm a bit upset at option one as everything we have done has been down the middle and I feel I've gotten the Raw end of the stick.
Option 2 is even worse for the money. Option 3 we are not entertaining. Mot for a mortgage and tax loop hole anyway. Certainly want to be proposed to in a more romantic way then ' will you fiddle the tax system with me for the rest of my life'

Any I put or if you know a gay couple that were in this position and how they resolved the issue I would be greatly appreciative of some advice

Many thanks

Tetra

drunkmonkey · 10-08-2020 10:11pm

You don't have a lot of choice I think, it's number 3 if you don't want to pay cat.

It's more if you broke up the issue arises can you prove you paid half the deposit? Your 50/50 on the mortgage but they could argue that's just rent if you can't prove anything more of a contribution.

As it stands you have no ownership, the house is not in your name. Same as if any coupe done the same thing

El Tarangu · 10-08-2020 10:12pm

Go with 1), and then get married later at the time and in the manner of your convenience. Once you are married, the house will belong to you both 50/50.

I don't know if anyone on a message board would be able to give you better advice that your solicitor.

jlm29 · 10-08-2020 10:25pm

It’s nothing to do with being gay. We were cohabiting and had 4 kids together and I couldn’t be put on the deeds without the same obstacles you’ve come up with. We just got married (well we wanted to do that anyhow like, it wasn’t just because of the house)

jlm29 · 10-08-2020 10:26pm

jlm29 wrote: »

It’s nothing to do with being gay. We were cohabiting and had 4 kids together and I couldn’t be put on the deeds without the same obstacles you’ve come up with. We just got married (well we wanted to do that anyhow like, it wasn’t just because of the house)

Remember also that if your partner dies suddenly you won’t be able to avoid the taxman

jimmycrackcorm · 10-08-2020 10:50pm

drunkmonkey wrote: »

You don't have a lot of choice I think, it's number 3 if you don't want to pay cat.

It's more if you broke up the issue arises can you prove you paid half the deposit? Your 50/50 on the mortgage but they could argue that's just rent if you can't prove anything more of a contribution.

As it stands you have no ownership, the house is not in your name. Same as if any coupe done the same thing

+1

Op, you're thinking that you are like a couple, but to the revenue, you and your OH are like me who owns my house and the male lodger I have in the rent a room scheme.

He can't turn round one day and say I've been paying money here for years so I'm entitled to go on the deeds.

If you want the benefits of being legally being protected then ether get married or a civil partnership. (Also useful for stuff like shared tax credits etc).

cardinal tetra · 11-08-2020 1:04am

Thanks all.
I thought i was quite savvy. From the coonversation i had with the bank manager back in 13, he said that down the line there would be no problem putting me on the mortgage and it wouldnt cost anything. I dont thinkni differentiated between the mortgahe and the deeds at the time and to be honest, i dont think he had a ****ing iota himself. I feel so stupid about this and the position i have put myself in. Covid hasnt helped with the threat of impending doom aroumd every corner. Both of us would be in the higher etchlons of risk category so we just wamt to be on an equal footing. I feel like im in a very nichè situation but someones gonna come up with a seriously brilliant resolution for this. I can feel it in my ovaries.

11-08-2020 1:26am

A civil partnership, or whatever, is the means to the end you’re looking for and romantic proposals have no bearing on a legal registration of something that’s already in effect, in all but the legal sense. You can go off and do it discretely without all the fuss and drama.

7 years together, bought a house together, you might as well. You refer to being naive in 2013 but refusing to formalise the relationship now to benefit from some of the pertinent protections and entitlements just because it’s not romantic is much more so. And sort out appropriate life insurance cover and your wills while you’re at it.

Also put the Covid doom rubbish to one side. This is all about normalising a situation you created for yourselves. Time to use common sense and dispense with the notions or else leave yourselves exposed to the risk of one of you losing the house if something happens to the other. That’s serious stuff so time to get busy and take action.

jlm29 · 11-08-2020 8:05am

Ye dude in the bank was right, you can go On the mortgage no bother. But that just gets you have the debt, not half the house

Mrs OBumble · 11-08-2020 8:11am

JayZeus wrote: »

A civil partnership, or whatever, is the means to the end you’re looking for and romantic proposals have no bearing on a legal registration of something that’s already in effect, in all but the legal sense. You can go off and do it discretely without all the fuss and drama.

Since the enactment of the Marriage Act, 2015 no new Civil Partnerships may be registered in Ireland.

Marriage is the only option.

The Irish state systemically discriminates against couples who choose not to marry. Gay or straight.

cardinal tetra · 11-08-2020 10:19am

So for now the best course of action is to do the tenancy agreement and get an interest in the house and down the line then broach the marriage thing. That takes 3 months and we need to be moving by september.

11-08-2020 10:22am

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Since the enactment of the Marriage Act, 2015 no new Civil Partnerships may be registered in Ireland.

Marriage is the only option.

The Irish state systemically discriminates against couples who choose not to marry. Gay or straight.

"or whatever"

Grand so. Wedding then. That's the means to the end.

As for the assertion that there's systematic discrimination, that's a whole other subject for a whole other thread.

cardinal tetra · 11-08-2020 10:35am

JayZeus wrote: »

"or whatever"

Grand so. Wedding then. That's the means to the end.

As for the assertion that there's systematic discrimination, that's a whole other subject for a whole other thread.

If common sense were to prevail. Id go on the deeds in the morning and that would ve the end of it.
Im getting double f**ked here as i take all the risk with the minimal amount of a legal footing.

seamus · 11-08-2020 10:58am

There has to be a legal way to recognise the difference between two individuals purchasing property as investment partners, or as a family. Marriage is this legal way.

While I appreciate the switch that it flicks in one's head, it's not exactly common sense to say that "I should be able to be legally connected to my partner in this one specific way because it suits my needs".

There's no reason why a property purchase should be a special case when it comes to the recognition of a non-blood relationship. If you want formal legal recognition of your partnership, you get married.

Mrs OBumble · 11-08-2020 12:00pm

cardinal tetra wrote: »

If common sense were to prevail. Id go on the deeds in the morning and that would ve the end of it.

There is. But its a taxable transaction. So, do it and pay the tax. Or take the risk of getting married.

AdesR · 11-08-2020 12:21pm

Gay married man here. This is why we fought for these rights.

Also: as an already non-traditional couple, you are also free to completely decouple the tradition from the legal aspect if you want.

You don't have to get married in a church, you don't have to have a big wedding (or one at all), you don't have to wear rings, you don't have to take each other's names etc.
You can take whatever you want from it, and whatever is meaningful to you.

DavyD_83 · 11-08-2020 1:00pm

I'm not sure anything here is different due to the fact you are gay.
If you were a hetero couple the exact same rules would apply, unless I've missed some key information.

You were not on the deeds from the start, for financial reasons. But if you were dead set on having your half-ownership be officia you should not have taken this course.
Your partner currently owns the house.

Yes, there probably should be a way for 2 people, who are in a relationship but not married, to have their status recognised, but at the moment from my understanding there is not.

And if we being entirely un-romantic, that's essentially what marriage is, a contractual sharing of resources. So maybe we just need to think of marriage differently rather than making up a new thing.

fishy_fishy · 11-08-2020 1:45pm

This has nothing to do with gender or sexuality. This is purely that you're not related in law.

You may have big dreams of grand romantic gestures to get engaged but you need to grow up. Easily the majority of couples of any and all sexualities decide to get married because they want to secure things like rights to the family home, guardianship of children, medical next of kin status.

From what you've said, you are both medically higher risk, and you've both paid half the mortgage on a house that only one of you has a legal right to. This is a no brainer - get married. Don't do the whole ceremonial part if you want to wait for a better time, but DO get the legal part out of the way.

fletch · 11-08-2020 1:52pm

FYI, I think your situation would fall under Civil Partnership and Certain Rights and Obligations of Cohabitants Act 2010 which gives you certain rights, whether or not you are on the deeds. I know it's not relevant to your remortgaging but it should give you some comfort to know you wouldn't be left with nothing if things went wrong

If your relationship breaks down and your name is not on the title deeds to the house, you may still be able to show that you have some ownership rights in relation to the house. These rights are based on the fact that you made a contribution to the purchase price of the house with the intention of gaining a share in the ownership of the house.

Contributions to the purchase price of the house can be direct or indirect. Direct contributions include contributions to the initial down payment for the house or contributions to the mortgage installments. Indirect contributions may include paying some of the other day-to-day household expenses or unpaid work in the legal owner of the house's business. It has been held by the courts that working in the home looking after children and money spent or work done on home improvements are not contributions that give you any right of ownership in relation to the house.

Usually, where you can show that you have made a contribution to the purchase price of the house, you will be entitled to a share in the house in proportion to your contribution. For example, if you have shown that you paid off half of a mortgage that represented 90% of the purchase price, you would be entitled to 45% of the ownership of the property.

As well as showing that you made a financial contribution to the purchase price of the house, you must also show that your contribution was made with the intention of gaining a share in the ownership of the house and that you were not making a gift of the money to the legal owner of the house.

Aside - What is a detention?

StoptheClocks · 11-08-2020 4:00pm

I'm in a similar situation. We're not looking to build an extension (I assume that is what you meant by detention)

Myself and my partner had no intention in getting married. We've cohabited for 15 years and have just bought our 2nd house (sold the first one). The mortgage on the house is about 10%. The equity is about 60/40 in my partners favour. If one of us passes tomorrow, the life insurance would clear the mortgage but the taxman would come after the equity that would be inherited by the other person. We're both on the deeds and mortgage.
This is annoying. We're paying life insurance so the bank can walk away. One of us would be left with a bigger debt than the cleared mortgage.

Eventually we'll be getting married. We've always joked about it because it happened to friends of ours that their children forced them into getting Married. It does take the romance out of it, standing up and doing a speech at the wedding, saying "it just made financial sense"

You can always propose to your partner? In my case, it's difficult because my partner won't find it romantic, she'll know that I'm just being prudent

She'll probably say no and would prefer if we got an extension.

Marcusm · 11-08-2020 9:39pm

StoptheClocks wrote: »

I'm in a similar situation. We're not looking to build an extension (I assume that is what you meant by detention)

Myself and my partner had no intention in getting married. We've cohabited for 15 years and have just bought our 2nd house (sold the first one). The mortgage on the house is about 10%. The equity is about 60/40 in my partners favour. If one of us passes tomorrow, the life insurance would clear the mortgage but the taxman would come after the equity that would be inherited by the other person. We're both on the deeds and mortgage.
This is annoying. We're paying life insurance so the bank can walk away. One of us would be left with a bigger debt than the cleared mortgage.

Eventually we'll be getting married. We've always joked about it because it happened to friends of ours that their children forced them into getting Married. It does take the romance out of it, standing up and doing a speech at the wedding, saying "it just made financial sense"

You can always propose to your partner? In my case, it's difficult because my partner won't find it romantic, she'll know that I'm just being prudent She'll probably say no and would prefer if we got an extension.

Just to be clear, dwelling house exemption would be available on s as n inheritance provided both had lived there for 3 years before, the survivor lives there for 6 years after and owns no other property. It’s not nearly so good as the spouse exemption but it is still useful.

Spanish Eyes · 11-08-2020 9:44pm

Just thinking about this and wonder would you consider selling the property and starting again on a 50/50 basis. No CGT as it is your partner's PPR, no CAT because you will be contributing equally to the new property and so on. Just a thought, but maybe you like where you live. A LOT!

TBH the selling and buying costs of another property are just what they are, and will be far cheaper than 50k in Gift Tax.

Well that's what I would do if you do not plan to marry.

Putting other half on mortgage and deeds (gay!)

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