County council are happy with their tenants overholding

hawkelady · 09-02-2018 11:29am

Just to update ,,, my solicitor was in talks with the council a few times. He called me yesterday to say he has hit a brick wall. Everything is in writing which I can use I suppose but basically the council have said it's their main concern and legal requirement that they house the tenant !! If they overhold because they can't get anywhere else , so be it. The council are keen to say that it might not happen but it's a tough market and the area that the tenant wants to move to is a very highly sought after area !! I'm also aware that the tenant has been in touch with Richard Boyd Barrett which makes me despair even more.

The media might be an option in the future after all. Expect me to be hung drawn and quartered on O'Connell bridge at midday !! (For the sensitive , that was humour )

c.p.w.g.w · 09-02-2018 11:36am

Can the OP try and get the council to buy his house... Since there is such a shortage of council housing?

hawkelady · 09-02-2018 11:42am

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Can the OP try and get the council to buy his house... Since there is such a shortage of council housing?

They have been asked by me and my solicitor and the council have said that they are interested in putting in an offer but the councils rules are that the property has to be vacant before they put in an offer !

I know I know. Madness

Dardania · 09-02-2018 11:44am

Would any of the housing associations buy with a sitting tenant?

The_Conductor · 09-02-2018 11:48am

Dardania wrote: »

Would any of the housing associations buy with a sitting tenant?

They have to follow Department guidelines- and under no circumstances are they allowed to purchase a property unless they have vacant possession of the property. The pre-existing tenant- does not have priority for the particular property- its the next on the list of priority from the local authority.

No- is the short and simple- they need vacant possession.

c.p.w.g.w · 09-02-2018 11:56am

The council bought the house next to my mother, and it's been occupied during the whole process, and the council are leaving the tenant stay as she is a HAP or some other housing benefit. The tenant had lived there for the previous 12 years and continues to live there

09-02-2018 12:03pm

I wouldn’t involve the media hawklady, you’d be crucified.

Are you within your rights to up the rent? Throw in legal costs and admin costs?

KellyXX · 09-02-2018 12:06pm

hawkelady wrote: »

Just to update ,,, my solicitor was in talks with the council a few times. He called me yesterday to say he has hit a brick wall. Everything is in writing which I can use I suppose but basically the council have said it's their main concern and legal requirement that they house the tenant !! If they overhold because they can't get anywhere else , so be it. The council are keen to say that it might not happen but it's a tough market and the area that the tenant wants to move to is a very highly sought after area !! I'm also aware that the tenant has been in touch with Richard Boyd Barrett which makes me despair even more.

The media might be an option in the future after all. Expect me to be hung drawn and quartered on O'Connell bridge at midday !! (For the sensitive , that was humour )

I bet the media will get involved alright but it will be Boyd Barret calling them first and you'll be crucified alright.

hawkelady · 09-02-2018 12:09pm

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

I wouldn’t involve the media hawklady, you’d be crucified.

Are you within your rights to up the rent? Throw in legal costs and admin costs?

Can't do that .. the rpz etc.

One thing my solicitor said was that if I had said I want the property back so I can live in it I might have a quicker resolution but the fact that I want to sell it the council will see it as a " no rush" case.

09-02-2018 12:15pm

I’m getting out of the game as soon part 4 is up. Too one sided as it is and I can only see it getting worse.

pc7 · 09-02-2018 12:16pm

Jesus OP that really is brutal, if you have written proof the council are suggesting they 'might overhold' I'd risk Joe Duffy before Boyd Barrett or the likes pipes up. Terrible stressful situation, is it possible to take a case against the council for mental stress??

hawkelady · 09-02-2018 12:23pm

pc7 wrote: »

Jesus OP that really is brutal, if you have written proof the council are suggesting they 'might overhold' I'd risk Joe Duffy before Boyd Barrett or the likes pipes up. Terrible stressful situation, is it possible to take a case against the council for mental stress??

I have written proof all right. Joe Duffy would be on the tenants side and he'd have every Bernie in Dublin calling in saying how awful I am for evicting someone ! It's a balls

I hope we haven't gone full American just yet with the mental stress stuff ! I'm sure some lawyers would see dollars but I'm a firm believer in fairness so suing someone wouldn't be something I'd like to do here ...

hawkelady · 09-02-2018 12:26pm

Oh I asked the council is it legal what they are planning to do and was told that " its come from the top that it's government policy ". Listen , if my solicitor hit a wall I can't see any way this is going to end like it's meant to !! I have his costs now too.
Hint to future landlords. Do not deal with the council ! Rent it privately.

Dardania · 09-02-2018 12:28pm

hawkelady wrote: »

Oh I asked the council is it legal what they are planning to do and was told that " its come from the top that it's government policy ". Listen , if my solicitor hit a wall I can't see any way this is going to end like it's meant to !! I have his costs now too.
Hint to future landlords. Do not deal with the council ! Rent it privately.

Just as well we have a separate judiciary

beauf · 09-02-2018 12:29pm

The council are still paying the rent though aren't they. Would be a lot worse if they weren't. Some LLs are in that situation.

The council find it hard to get LL to rent to them now. It will impossible soon.

hawkelady · 09-02-2018 12:31pm

beauf wrote: »

The council are still paying the rent though aren't they. Would be a lot worse if they weren't. Some LLs are in that situation.

The council find it hard to get LL to rent to them now. It will impossible soon.

Indeed. Yes I'm still getting rent , I'm also still paying tax on it and it's crippling !

....... · 09-02-2018 1:10pm

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4ensic15 · 09-02-2018 1:13pm

....... wrote: »

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What is the point of option 3? The tenant will overhold if they get notice.

....... · 09-02-2018 1:16pm

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Dardania · 09-02-2018 1:31pm

....... wrote: »

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See OPs update above where it will be seen as more urgent if she needs to move back in.

A 4th option might be to stop paying the mortgage on it and let the bank move on it - the bank might have more power to insist to the council that it is sold.[/quote]
Cutting your nose off to spite your face?

beauf · 09-02-2018 1:36pm

At the end of the day its about picking the least expensive option going forward. That would seem to be raising the rent at the legal limit, and staying a LL until it can be sold at a acceptable price.

....... · 09-02-2018 1:37pm

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pc7 · 09-02-2018 1:38pm

beauf wrote: »

At the end of the day its about picking the least expensive option going forward. That would seem to be raising the rent at the legal limit, and staying a LL until it can be sold at a acceptable price.

The fear among many landlords I know (myself included) is that going forward the government will stop you being able to sell. I cannot think of any other industry/sector where the government interferes so much.

whoopsadoodles · 09-02-2018 1:40pm

....... wrote: »

Why?

The bank will certainly have more legal power behind them than the OP will.

What? You don't see why that's such an abysmal idea?

Because the OP will be in bad credit for years for one.

....... · 09-02-2018 1:42pm

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beauf · 09-02-2018 1:43pm

pc7 wrote: »

The fear among many landlords I know (myself included) is that going forward the government will stop you being able to sell. I cannot think of any other industry/sector where the government interferes so much.

Its seems like that are making it an miserable business that you can't get out of. Which is way so many are trying to get out of it.

beauf · 09-02-2018 1:44pm

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Its a last resort in my opinion.

....... · 09-02-2018 1:55pm

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Bass Reeves · 09-02-2018 3:08pm

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whoopsadoodles wrote: »

What? You don't see why that's such an abysmal idea?

Because the OP will be in bad credit for years for one.

Aside from a bad credit rating the bank will charge penalties and interest on unpaid payments and have show that they are unwilling to let mortgage debt let off lightly. This is not even an option unless you cannot afford the rep[ayments

....... · 09-02-2018 4:07pm

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Fkall · 10-02-2018 1:21pm

hawkelady wrote: »

They have been asked by me and my solicitor and the council have said that they are interested in putting in an offer but the councils rules are that the property has to be vacant before they put in an offer !

I know I know. Madness

One option to explore would be to sell the house with the tenant in-situ. Without doubt this will substantially reduce the sales price however the council may very well be liable for the loss suffered.

Without doubt the threat will evoke a response

hawkelady · 10-02-2018 1:53pm

Fkall wrote: »

hawkelady wrote: »

They have been asked by me and my solicitor and the council have said that they are interested in putting in an offer but the councils rules are that the property has to be vacant before they put in an offer !

I know I know. Madness

One option to explore would be to sell the house with the tenant in-situ. Without doubt this will substantially reduce the sales price however the council may very well be liable for the loss suffered.

Without doubt the threat will evoke a response

Are you saying I tell the council I'm prepared to sell with tenant still living there?? The EA I was in discussions with have said to me that I'm to have it empty and a deep clean before they will put the for sale sign up.
I might say it to the council anyway to get a reaction at least. Is there any way they can come back to me and say I can't do this ?

whoopsadoodles · 10-02-2018 1:58pm

hawkelady wrote: »

Are you saying I tell the council I'm prepared to sell with tenant still living there?? The EA I was in discussions with have said to me that I'm to have it empty and a deep clean before they will put the for sale sign up.
I might say it to the council anyway to get a reaction at least. Is there any way they can come back to me and say I can't do this ?

Well that seems like a lot of nonsense for a start. Estate agents begin the sale of houses with tenants in situ every day of the week. Talk to someone else.

hawkelady · 10-02-2018 2:08pm

whoopsadoodles wrote: »

hawkelady wrote: »

Are you saying I tell the council I'm prepared to sell with tenant still living there?? The EA I was in discussions with have said to me that I'm to have it empty and a deep clean before they will put the for sale sign up.
I might say it to the council anyway to get a reaction at least. Is there any way they can come back to me and say I can't do this ?

Well that seems like a lot of nonsense for a start. Estate agents begin the sale of houses with tenants in situ every day of the week. Talk to someone else.

It's one of the top 3 estate agents !! They told me cause the council are involved this is the best route !! Maybe they knew more than they let on when I went into them. I have heard stories of tenants having the place in a tip when viewings were going on as it's in the tenants interests to stall a sale !!

scouserstation · 10-02-2018 5:19pm

hawkelady wrote: »

It's one of the top 3 estate agents !! They told me cause the council are involved this is the best route !! Maybe they knew more than they let on when I went into them. I have heard stories of tenants having the place in a tip when viewings were going on as it's in the tenants interests to stall a sale !!

Different estate agents have different sales strategies, some will not take on a sale with in-situ tenants as its more difficult to sell the property, some agents specialise in selling such houses, these would have the best experience with this type of sale. I know of at least 1 of the bigger estate agents in Dublin which sells a lot of property with tenants in-situ, though cant name them here

hawkelady · 10-02-2018 6:28pm

scouserstation wrote: »

hawkelady wrote: »

It's one of the top 3 estate agents !! They told me cause the council are involved this is the best route !! Maybe they knew more than they let on when I went into them. I have heard stories of tenants having the place in a tip when viewings were going on as it's in the tenants interests to stall a sale !!

Different estate agents have different sales strategies, some will not take on a sale with in-situ tenants as its more difficult to sell the property, some agents specialise in selling such houses, these would have the best experience with this type of sale. I know of at least 1 of the bigger estate agents in Dublin which sells a lot of property with tenants in-situ, though cant name them here

Can you pm me with the name please ?

scouserstation · 10-02-2018 7:58pm

hawkelady wrote: »

Can you pm me with the name please ?

Pm sent

hawkelady · 10-02-2018 8:27pm

Got it. Thanks a million

11-02-2018 10:36am

I don’t think it’s allowed in this country but I’d love if you could set up a competition to buy your house.

You base it off the Saturday night bonus ball. So divide the selling price of the house by however many numbers in the lotto. That’s the buy price of a number and whoever chooses the bonus ball wins the House (tenant in situ).

I’ve seen it done with bikes, boats and cars. I’m also still a bit tipsy but trying to think outside the box for ya

KellyXX · 11-02-2018 10:41am

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

I don’t think it’s allowed in this country but I’d love if you could set up a competition to buy your house.

You base it off the Saturday night bonus ball. So divide the selling price of the house by however many numbers in the lotto. That’s the buy price of a number and whoever chooses the bonus ball wins the House (tenant in situ).

I’ve seen it done with bikes, boats and cars. I’m also still a bit tipsy but trying to think outside the box for ya

I bought a raffle ticket for a house being raffked by the local gaa club a good few years ago.
I didn't win.

11-02-2018 3:21pm

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

I don’t think it’s allowed in this country but I’d love if you could set up a competition to buy your house.

You base it off the Saturday night bonus ball. So divide the selling price of the house by however many numbers in the lotto. That’s the buy price of a number and whoever chooses the bonus ball wins the House (tenant in situ).

I’ve seen it done with bikes, boats and cars. I’m also still a bit tipsy but trying to think outside the box for ya

People do that with cars, but the difference is the price.

Lets say your house is worth €150k. There are 50 numbers in the lotto, i believe. That means everyone has to pay €3k for a ticket. Cant see you finding 50 people all willing to spend €3k knowing that 49 of them will walk away with nothing.

perhaps if youve a lot of cash to spare,but the trick is finding 50 people.

KellyXX · 11-02-2018 4:34pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

People do that with cars, but the difference is the price.

Lets say your house is worth €150k. There are 50 numbers in the lotto, i believe. That means everyone has to pay €3k for a ticket. Cant see you finding 50 people all willing to spend €3k knowing that 49 of them will walk away with nothing.

perhaps if youve a lot of cash to spare,but the trick is finding 50 people.

When I entered the raffle for the house there were 2500 tickets at €100 each.

12-02-2018 5:04am

KellyXX wrote: »

When I entered the raffle for the house there were 2500 tickets at €100 each.

Thats your local GAA club? The idea floated was to use the lotto.

Out of curiousity, what was the situation that lead to a GAA club raffling a house? In my head I envisage that it was it only worth half the price of the raffle or so (ie; 125k or 150k or such?) and it was a player's? The idea behind the raffle being to raise money (the difference) for the club?

or am I way off?

April 73 · 12-02-2018 8:59am

I think in your shoes OP I would start the RTB case rolling so that eventually you will get your tenant out by due legal process.

I would have my solicitor write to the council to tell them you are putting the house on the market with the tenant in-situ and if you do not receive the market rate for your property with the tenant still there you will sue for the amount you lost.
Find an estate agent who will take on the property with the tenant there. Put a sign up outside & have scheduled visits. The tenant will see the writing on the wall & they need to start applying pressure to the council to find them accomodation. At the moment it suits the council & the tenant to maintain the status quo. You need to have the tenant agitating the council too.

Completely random idea here but if the tenant could be placed in short term accomodation, your property would be empty & could be purchased by the council. Is there any possibility of this?

My big fear is that the next legislation change will be to remove the right to have your propert back when you want to sell or move in yourself. What the council officer told you about “this coming from the top” is nonsense. Just to put the pressure on I would put in a Freedom of Information request to see where & from whom that has been communicated as council policy. Turn the pressure up!

KellyXX · 12-02-2018 9:15am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Thats your local GAA club? The idea floated was to use the lotto.

Out of curiousity, what was the situation that lead to a GAA club raffling a house? In my head I envisage that it was it only worth half the price of the raffle or so (ie; 125k or 150k or such?) and it was a player's? The idea behind the raffle being to raise money (the difference) for the club?

or am I way off?

Close. Someone willed the house to the club.

12-02-2018 10:14am

And just like that, a post comes up on my Facebook feed for a raffle for a house in donegal. Sorry mods for the off topic posts

4ensic15 · 13-02-2018 8:12am

April 73 wrote: »

I think in your shoes OP I would start the RTB case rolling so that eventually you will get your tenant out by due legal process.

I would have my solicitor write to the council to tell them you are putting the house on the market with the tenant in-situ and if you do not receive the market rate for your property with the tenant still there you will sue for the amount you lost.
Find an estate agent who will take on the property with the tenant there. Put a sign up outside & have scheduled visits. The tenant will see the writing on the wall & they need to start applying pressure to the council to find them accomodation. At the moment it suits the council & the tenant to maintain the status quo. You need to have the tenant agitating the council too.

Completely random idea here but if the tenant could be placed in short term accomodation, your property would be empty & could be purchased by the council. Is there any possibility of this?

My big fear is that the next legislation change will be to remove the right to have your propert back when you want to sell or move in yourself. What the council officer told you about “this coming from the top” is nonsense. Just to put the pressure on I would put in a Freedom of Information request to see where & from whom that has been communicated as council policy. Turn the pressure up!

The council will not be liable for a tenant overholding and will not be ordered to pay compensation. they have a clause in the agreement with the landlord limiting their liability to one months rent.
Having viewings with a tenant in situ is a breach of the tenants right to quiet enjoyment and could lead to a complaint from the tenant. There is no obligation on the tenant to allow viewings. Even putting up a for sale sign in the garden coud be an interference with the tenants right of quiet enjoyment.

dechol · 13-02-2018 9:06pm

This happened me too earlier in year.Ras Tenant was supposed to move out in mid December. Didn't leave. I lodged a dispute with PRTB immediately. Dispute hearing was set for late Jan but Council moved tenant once dispute hearing date was set. So only took about about four weeks to sort. DCC paid me for that time. I now have keys back. However DCC council said they would check house and call me if any issues. I couldn't meet them at house as only time offered was morning and I work! No phonecall to say any issues so I assumed all was ok. House is wrecked.loads of stuff left behind. Took two skips to clear. Wardrobes broken, rooms painted bright colours, dog **** everywhere even though no pets allowed. Lots missing from house....kettle, toaster, tv was smashed out the back yard and left . Tenant even took all the light bulbs! Bins full and account closed and not collected. I am now trying to get money back from DCC as way beyond wear and tear.

April 73 · 13-02-2018 9:44pm

4ensic15 wrote: »

Having viewings with a tenant in situ is a breach of the tenants right to quiet enjoyment and could lead to a complaint from the tenant. There is no obligation on the tenant to allow viewings. Even putting up a for sale sign in the garden coud be an interference with the tenants right of quiet enjoyment.

The tenant has been given s valid notice to quit. Once they go past that date and are overholding do they still retain their tenants rights? So they can breach their side of an agreement and stay beyond their notice but woe betide a LL putting a For Sale notice in the garden of the property he owns. Because it might interfere with the tenant’s quiet enjoyment of the house they have legitimately been asked to leave? There’s something very wrong with the balance of rights between tenant & landlord these days.

Claw Hammer · 14-02-2018 5:40pm

April 73 wrote: »

The tenant has been given s valid notice to quit. Once they go past that date and are overholding do they still retain their tenants rights? So they can breach their side of an agreement and stay beyond their notice but woe betide a LL putting a For Sale notice in the garden of the property he owns. Because it might interfere with the tenant’s quiet enjoyment of the house they have legitimately been asked to leave? There’s something very wrong with the balance of rights between tenant & landlord these days.

The notice has not been determined to be valid by anyone but the landlord at this stage. If the tenant stays the landlord has to open a dispute with the RTB. It is specifically provided that the tenancy continues during the processing of a dispute. Only when there has been a determination order which has not been complied with does the possibility of the tenant losing rights to quiet enjoyment arise.

County council are happy with their tenants overholding

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