County council are happy with their tenants overholding

hawkelady · 24-01-2018 2:47pm #1

I issued a termination notice to my tenants a number of weeks ago. They are on RAS , so are county council tenants. I received an email today from the council stating that if they cannot find them suitable accommodation in the same area they will be overholding !! They told me to check my notice of termination that it's in order as I'll need it when it goes to the RTB .. I was shocked at the manner of the county council put this email together .... it proves that landlords aren't protected whatsoever by them.
They give you 20% below market rent but tell you you are secure with them. They effectively told me today that I'm to lodge a complaint with the RTB and the notice isn't even up for another two months.

ted1 · 24-01-2018 2:53pm

I assume that they will still be paying you.

On what grounds are you evicting them ?

hawkelady · 24-01-2018 3:03pm

I'm selling up. I'd imagine that I'd still get paid cause it's the council. But I want to sell. I feel utterly betrayed by the council. What if I wanted to move back in the myself ?? Jesus , I can't wait to get out of being a landlord !!

lawred2 · 24-01-2018 3:06pm

hawkelady wrote: »

I'm selling up. I'd imagine that I'd still get paid cause it's the council. But I want to sell. I feel utterly betrayed by the council. What if I wanted to move back in the myself ?? Jesus , I can't wait to get out of being a landlord !!

their remit is to keep roofs over people's heads.. You are not their priority so I wouldn't take it personally. Feelings of betrayal are pointless.

presuming that this is Dublin - there is a chronic housing shortage as I'm sure that you're aware.

hawkelady · 24-01-2018 3:13pm

Well aware of the crisis alright although I can't be blamed for it tbf

lawred2 · 24-01-2018 3:19pm

hawkelady wrote: »

Well aware of the crisis alright although I can't be blamed for it tbf

nope - certainly not but their actions are going to be driven by it.

Browney7 · 24-01-2018 3:27pm

Maybe they might buy it?

daheff · 24-01-2018 3:47pm

Browney7 wrote: »

Maybe they might buy it?

they wont pay market value though...so screwed twice.

If you do sell...make sure you let the housing charities know. they have been known to pay good money for houses...often above what you think they will pay.

hawkelady · 24-01-2018 3:54pm

Which housing charities ??

hawkelady · 24-01-2018 3:57pm

Browney7 wrote: »

Maybe they might buy it?

They said they won't even consider it until the property is vacant !! Go figure

mel123 · 24-01-2018 3:59pm

Nothing of value to add OP, other than its disgraceful carry on. You want to sell YOUR house, and cant until they find suitable accommodation for the tenant, and who knows how long that will take. Its an absolute farce.

dar100 · 24-01-2018 4:01pm

hawkelady wrote: »

Which housing charities ??

Peter mc verry trust are buying houses I believe

The Student · 24-01-2018 4:14pm

hawkelady wrote: »

I issued a termination notice to my tenants a number of weeks ago. They are on RAS , so are county council tenants. I received an email today from the council stating that if they cannot find them suitable accommodation in the same area they will be overholding !! They told me to check my notice of termination that it's in order as I'll need it when it goes to the RTB .. I was shocked at the manner of the county council put this email together .... it proves that landlords aren't protected whatsoever by them.
They give you 20% below market rent but tell you you are secure with them. They effectively told me today that I'm to lodge a complaint with the RTB and the notice isn't even up for another two months.

Can I suggest you revert back to the council and advise them that if you need to go to the RTB you will and once you win your case against them you will issue legal proceedings for breach of contract. Normally its not worth issuing proceedings against individuals as they have nothing to discharge the debt, Councils on the other hand have.

Remember your contract is between you and the Council and they have the right to nominate a tenant but ultimately they are the party who contracted with you.

daheff · 24-01-2018 4:20pm

hawkelady wrote: »

Which housing charities ??

try people like PMVT, Cluid etc.

google some, ask the local estate agents they might know of some who are buying in the area.

Michael D Not Higgins · 24-01-2018 4:21pm

The Student wrote: »

Can I suggest you revert back to the council and advise them that if you need to go to the RTB you will and once you win your case against them you will issue legal proceedings for breach of contract. Normally its not worth issuing proceedings against individuals as they have nothing to discharge the debt, Councils on the other hand have.

Remember your contract is between you and the Council and they have the right to nominate a tenant but ultimately they are the party who contracted with you.

RAS does not discharge any responsibilities between landlords and tenants under the RTA to the council. The action in the RTB would be against the occupying tenant and the council would assume no responsibility for the tenant's actions.

The only contract between the council and the landlord is for payment of the agreed rent for the term. They wouldn't be in default of that contract if they continue paying during the period of overholding.

24-01-2018 4:28pm

If the contract is between landlord and tenant what business do the council have telling the landlord they are overholding?

The Student · 24-01-2018 4:33pm

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

RAS does not discharge any responsibilities between landlords and tenants under the RTA to the council. The action in the RTB would be against the occupying tenant and the council would assume no responsibility for the tenant's actions.

The only contract between the council and the landlord is for payment of the agreed rent for the term. They wouldn't be in default of that contract if they continue paying during the period of overholding.

If my memory serves me right they are liable. When I went into the RAS the LA confirmed to me that they had the right to nominate the tenant and that they were liable for the rent even during void periods. (I would have to have a look at the lease again but this was one of the attractions for me at the time. This was back in 2009 when the rental market was on its knees which is what attracted me to the scheme).

I think you may be confusing the RAS with the HAP. The only relationship the council have with the Landlord under HAP is payment (assuming the LA are paid by the tenant).

I will however stand corrected on the above as I never had a need to look into it although I would be interested in seeing how this situation evolves.

tretorn · 24-01-2018 4:47pm

Simon are buying houses too and have paid up to 300 thousand per house.
Liveline did a programme recently on problem tenants Simon put into the houses bought.
I have stopped giving money to all these housing charities, they are driving house prices up for lower paid working people to put workshy people with numerous children into houses bought with money donated by the public and vast sums of taxpayers money diverted to them through grants.
The whole system is a holy mess.

hawkelady · 24-01-2018 4:47pm

The Student wrote: »

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

RAS does not discharge any responsibilities between landlords and tenants under the RTA to the council. The action in the RTB would be against the occupying tenant and the council would assume no responsibility for the tenant's actions.

The only contract between the council and the landlord is for payment of the agreed rent for the term. They wouldn't be in default of that contract if they continue paying during the period of overholding.

If my memory serves me right they are liable. When I went into the RAS the LA confirmed to me that they had the right to nominate the tenant and that they were liable for the rent even during void periods. (I would have to have a look at the lease again but this was one of the attractions for me at the time. This was back in 2009 when the rental market was on its knees which is what attracted me to the scheme).

I think you may be confusing the RAS with the HAP. The only relationship the council have with the Landlord under HAP is payment (assuming the LA are paid by the tenant).

I will however stand corrected on the above as I never had a need to look into it although I would be interested in seeing how this situation evolves.

You are correct regarding RAS. I don't know much regarding hap.

sjb25 · 24-01-2018 4:53pm

lawred2 wrote: »

their remit is to keep roofs over people's heads.. You are not their priority so I wouldn't take it personally. Feelings of betrayal are pointless.

presuming that this is Dublin - there is a chronic housing shortage as I'm sure that you're aware.

I’m not a landlord I’m a tenant but surely the OP can sell HIS/HER house if they wish And should not feel bad or made guilty for it
Or made wait till the council or whoever is ready
I could never be a landlord lads

southstar · 24-01-2018 5:08pm

hawkelady wrote: »

I issued a termination notice to my tenants a number of weeks ago. They are on RAS , so are county council tenants. I received an email today from the council stating that if they cannot find them suitable accommodation in the same area they will be overholding !! They told me to check my notice of termination that it's in order as I'll need it when it goes to the RTB .. I was shocked at the manner of the county council put this email together .... it proves that landlords aren't protected whatsoever by them.
They give you 20% below market rent but tell you you are secure with them. They effectively told me today that I'm to lodge a complaint with the RTB and the notice isn't even up for another two months.

I'm confused ....if they are they county council tenants then did they sign a lease,an enforceable contract, with the county council or with you? Did you not establish the rights and duties of all the parties before entering into the arrangement in the first place?
Excuse me if I'm a little suspicious as on three separate radio shows yesterday there were landlords on pleading hardship...and a raft of rather suspicious messages being posted in.. in the same vein.It all seemed a little bit too coordinated...(perhaps the work of Residential Landlords Association of Ireland ??)...how odd I thought given that The Social Democrats are presently trying to draft a bill to extend tenants rights.. just wondering like..
The fact is that for the most part it is tenants who are being squeezed with many unwilling to enforce their rights due to the uncertainty and insecurity inherent with present day renting.

hawkelady · 24-01-2018 5:24pm

southstar wrote: »

I'm confused ....if they are they county council tenants then did they sign a lease,an enforceable contract, with the county council or with you? Did you not establish the rights and duties of all the parties before entering into the arrangement in the first place?
Excuse me if I'm a little suspicious as on three separate radio shows yesterday there were landlords on pleading hardship...and a raft of rather suspicious messages being posted in.. in the same vein.It all seemed a little bit too coordinated...(perhaps the work of Residential Landlords Association of Ireland ??)...how odd I thought given that The Social Democrats are presently trying to draft a bill to extend tenants rights.. just wondering like..
The fact is that for the most part it is tenants who are being squeezed with many unwilling to enforce their rights due to the uncertainty and insecurity inherent with present day renting.

Not sure if this is serious or not?? if it is, please take off the tin foil hat.. I know nothing of a concerted attempt by landlords to" screw tenants over"

I have a contract with the council signed by the council,tenant and myself..
It would seem that they are breaking the contract if they overhold as it states that they will find another property within the notice given if I ever terminated the tenancy.. and then the email today!!

Hope that clears up your "confusion"

The Student · 24-01-2018 5:35pm

southstar wrote: »

I'm confused ....if they are they county council tenants then did they sign a lease,an enforceable contract, with the county council or with you? Did you not establish the rights and duties of all the parties before entering into the arrangement in the first place?
Excuse me if I'm a little suspicious as on three separate radio shows yesterday there were landlords on pleading hardship...and a raft of rather suspicious messages being posted in.. in the same vein.It all seemed a little bit too coordinated...(perhaps the work of Residential Landlords Association of Ireland ??)...how odd I thought given that The Social Democrats are presently trying to draft a bill to extend tenants rights.. just wondering like..
The fact is that for the most part it is tenants who are being squeezed with many unwilling to enforce their rights due to the uncertainty and insecurity inherent with present day renting.

Can you tell me of any other business were the owner is not free to dispose of its assets as it sees fit.

lawred2 · 24-01-2018 5:37pm

sjb25 wrote: »

I’m not a landlord I’m a tenant but surely the OP can sell HIS/HER house if they wish And should not feel bad or made guilty for it
Or made wait till the council or whoever is ready
I could never be a landlord lads

Was that what you think I was doing?

....... · 24-01-2018 5:40pm

This post has been deleted.

Claw Hammer · 24-01-2018 5:40pm

I know someone that happened to. Even with a Determination Order from the PRTB the Council told the tenant to stay put. He got some barrister onto it and they served the tenant with court documents which panicked the tenant and the council. The tenant was re-housed within a few weeks.

hawkelady · 24-01-2018 5:41pm

No cant sell it with the tenants in it.. It has to be vacant.

southstar · 24-01-2018 5:42pm

hawkelady wrote: »

southstar wrote: »

I'm confused ....if they are they county council tenants then did they sign a lease,an enforceable contract, with the county council or with you? Did you not establish the rights and duties of all the parties before entering into the arrangement in the first place?
Excuse me if I'm a little suspicious as on three separate radio shows yesterday there were landlords on pleading hardship...and a raft of rather suspicious messages being posted in.. in the same vein.It all seemed a little bit too coordinated...(perhaps the work of Residential Landlords Association of Ireland ??)...how odd I thought given that The Social Democrats are presently trying to draft a bill to extend tenants rights.. just wondering like..
The fact is that for the most part it is tenants who are being squeezed with many unwilling to enforce their rights due to the uncertainty and insecurity inherent with present day renting.

Not sure if this is serious or not?? if it is, please take off the tin foil hat.. I know nothing of a concerted attempt by landlords to" screw tenants over"

I have a contract with the council signed by the council,tenant and myself..
It would seem that they are breaking the contract if they overhold as it states that they will find another property within the notice given if I ever terminated the tenancy.. and then the email today!!

Hope that clears up your "confusion"

I never accused the landlords association of trying to screw tenants over....just pointing out what may have been a coordinated attempt to sway public opinion in their favour...maybe you should pay more attention to what I read as well as the agreement you entered into....oh and to what you write as well as the second paragraph in your reply is incomprehensible .If they are in breach of contract point this out and then seek to enforce it as necessary.

....... · 24-01-2018 5:44pm

This post has been deleted.

The Student · 24-01-2018 5:44pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

I know someone that happened to. Even with a Determination Order from the PRTB the Council told the tenant to stay put. He got some barrister onto it and they served the tenant with court documents which panicked the tenant and the council. The tenant was re-housed within a few weeks.

If it was me I would still sue the council for any legal costs you incur.

TheChizler · 24-01-2018 5:50pm

The Student wrote: »

If it was me I would still sue the council for any legal costs you incur.

The council have no responsibility over the tenant, their only responsibility beyond placing a tenant in the property is paying rent and acting as guarantor for the rent.

County council are happy with their tenants overholding

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