Mains smoke alarm

cranefly · 23-11-2020 8:45pm #1

I decided to change an old mains smoke alarm with a battery that was installed in 2006. so i bought a new one and tried to fit it myself, a BRK 660 MBX from Amazon. i looked at a few youtube videos and thought i would give it a go, i removed the old one, i knew the connection would not fit the new baseplate, so i turned off the fuse at the fusebox, took the old connection off the wires, and fed each wire separately into the baseplate and tightened the small screws.

This is a ceiling fitting on a dormer bungalow, as i was doing this, the white wire came away from whatever it was attached too, it has some plastic yoke with tape around it, i was fairly surprised at this, so i put searched around with my fingers to see where this wire came from, on the rafter a couple of inches into the ceiling was a plastic yoke on the rafter, so i assumed that was where the white wire was from, so i pushed it back into this plastic yoke, with the wires in the baseplate, i put the smoke alarm on the baseplate, a push fit, rather than the turn type.
I turned on the fuse and went to check the smoke alarm, the red light was blinking every minute or so from the battery, but their was no green light for the mains part, so i turned the light on, and the green light came on, turned the light switch off, and the green light went out, as the old one worked with the light switch off, im guessing i did something wrong, maybe with the white wire, maybe i did not put it back right on the rafter, as the tape might have been in the way for the two pieces of plastic to touch each other, im only guessing at that. does anyone know what i need to do to get this smoke alarm working without turning the light switch on.

aido79 · 24-11-2020 9:05am

cranefly wrote: »

I decided to change an old mains smoke alarm with a battery that was installed in 2006. so i bought a new one and tried to fit it myself, a BRK 660 MBX from Amazon. i looked at a few youtube videos and thought i would give it a go, i removed the old one, i knew the connection would not fit the new baseplate, so i turned off the fuse at the fusebox, took the old connection off the wires, and fed each wire separately into the baseplate and tightened the small screws.

This is a ceiling fitting on a dormer bungalow, as i was doing this, the white wire came away from whatever it was attached too, it has some plastic yoke with tape around it, i was fairly surprised at this, so i put searched around with my fingers to see where this wire came from, on the rafter a couple of inches into the ceiling was a plastic yoke on the rafter, so i assumed that was where the white wire was from, so i pushed it back into this plastic yoke, with the wires in the baseplate, i put the smoke alarm on the baseplate, a push fit, rather than the turn type.
I turned on the fuse and went to check the smoke alarm, the red light was blinking every minute or so from the battery, but their was no green light for the mains part, so i turned the light on, and the green light came on, turned the light switch off, and the green light went out, as the old one worked with the light switch off, im guessing i did something wrong, maybe with the white wire, maybe i did not put it back right on the rafter, as the tape might have been in the way for the two pieces of plastic to touch each other, im only guessing at that. does anyone know what i need to do to get this smoke alarm working without turning the light switch on.

I'm not sure what exactly you have done for this to happen but the best thing you could do is get an electrician to have a look at it.
Are you sure the old smoke alarm was working with the light switch off? The switch wire for the light should not be anywhere near the smoke alarm so I really don't know how this could have happened.
Any chance of a picture of the "plastic yoke"?

cranefly · 25-11-2020 5:44am

The green light was on alright with the old one, i will try and get a pic of that plastic yoke, its grey in colour smallish a little over an inch long with a arch and held on with a screw at one end, i pushed the white wire with the tape around it into the arch.

cranefly · 29-11-2020 2:10am

So i think i would need to call an electrician, well, that is not going to happen, the call out charge alone would be well over the top for this small job. I have come to the conclusion that these wired smoke alarms should be banned, as they give people a false sense of security. I say this only because you can now buy these alarms with a 10 year battery life, and as the manufacturers say the sensors in these alarms only last 10 years before they degrade, some people could keep these wired alarms well past the 10 years, changing the battery every time it runs low, so i can see some people having them well past the 10 years with degraded sensors.

A 10 year battery life smoke or heat alarm therefore will start beeping near, or at the end of its 10 year life, and as most of the batteries in these alarms are sealed, so you can not change them, it means the whole unit needs to be changed, therefore guaranteeing that it is not left on the ceiling with a possible degraded sensor. So i will keep my mains powered alarm and just change the battery every so often, but buy an extra one with the 10 year battery life, as this should work out less expensive, and safer than calling out an electrician and paying all that extra, totally unnecessary extra expense.

Lenar3556 · 29-11-2020 2:22am

cranefly wrote: »

So i think i would need to call an electrician, well, that is not going to happen, the call out charge alone would be well over the top for this small job. I have come to the conclusion that these wired smoke alarms should be banned, as they give people a false sense of security. I say this only because you can now buy these alarms with a 10 year battery life, and as the manufacturers say the sensors in these alarms only last 10 years before they degrade, some people could keep these wired alarms well past the 10 years, changing the battery every time it runs low, so i can see some people having them well past the 10 years with degraded sensors.

A 10 year battery life smoke or heat alarm therefore will start beeping near, or at the end of its 10 year life, and as most of the batteries in these alarms are sealed, so you can not change them, it means the whole unit needs to be changed, therefore guaranteeing that it is not left on the ceiling with a possible degraded sensor. So i will keep my mains powered alarm and just change the battery every so often, but buy an extra one with the 10 year battery life, as this should work out less expensive, and safer than calling out an electrician and paying all that extra, totally unnecessary extra expense.

Mains powered are still required, in order to comply with building regulations in most cases.

The 10 year battery alarms are good, but the battery only versions may not last that long - it depends on the number of activations. I have seen cases where they didn’t last 12 months. Mains with lithium battery backup is always the preferred option.

JustAThought · 29-11-2020 2:34am

OP - I think you are right - I had to replace 3 of mine - one beeped until I nearly lost my reason - it beeped when connected, when disconnected, and kept beeping even when I took the battery out. I stuck it in the booth of the car Nd eventually drove it to the firebrigade station where the guys explained exactly what you said to me. I agree they should come with a warning.

My house insurance requires me to have an integrated system - I think in all 3 storey houses its a new thing. I also had that clip in part and was worrying about electrocuting myself and turned off the mains - turns out its just a fancy way of wiring it in aNd maKing it accessible to replace without calling an electrician!

First world problems!

Its fairly put me off installing a carbon monoxide one which I really should do downstairs but the combined smoke/CM ones that I’ve seen are double the size and a different shape. Can they not make them smaller ffs - look at phones and all the technology in them!

Saralace · 29-11-2020 2:38am

Pull out your mains cable out the hole if you can't pull it out go into attic and push it down then connect it to the base blue nuteral to n
L is live if it connects to others there's a intoconecting wire you should have wiring digram in the box

When wired screw up base then plug in smoke detector

cranefly · 29-11-2020 7:36pm

Saralace wrote: »

Pull out your mains cable out the hole if you can't pull it out go into attic and push it down then connect it to the base blue nuteral to n
L is live if it connects to others there's a intoconecting wire you should have wiring digram in the box

When wired screw up base then plug in smoke detector

I will give it another try, it does work, but only when the light switch is on, the brown and blue wire is connected right, but the white wire just fell through the hole, so i am thinking the problem is with the white wire.

cranefly · 29-11-2020 7:40pm

JustAThought wrote: »

OP - I think you are right - I had to replace 3 of mine - one beeped until I nearly lost my reason - it beeped when connected, when disconnected, and kept beeping even when I took the battery out. I stuck it in the booth of the car Nd eventually drove it to the firebrigade station where the guys explained exactly what you said to me. I agree they should come with a warning.

My house insurance requires me to have an integrated system - I think in all 3 storey houses its a new thing. I also had that clip in part and was worrying about electrocuting myself and turned off the mains - turns out its just a fancy way of wiring it in aNd maKing it accessible to replace without calling an electrician!

First world problems!

Its fairly put me off installing a carbon monoxide one which I really should do downstairs but the combined smoke/CM ones that I’ve seen are double the size and a different shape. Can they not make them smaller ffs - look at phones and all the technology in them!

I have 2 smoke with carbon monoxide alarms due from Amazon this week, they are made by X-Sense, they are a bit deeper alright, from the pictures anyway, they do not look too bad, as we have a stove in the living room, and the chimney stack goes through my nephews bedroom, i thought i would spend the small bit extra for the combination alarms.

cranefly · 29-11-2020 7:51pm

Lenar3556 wrote: »

Mains powered are still required, in order to comply with building regulations in most cases.

The 10 year battery alarms are good, but the battery only versions may not last that long - it depends on the number of activations. I have seen cases where they didn’t last 12 months. Mains with lithium battery backup is always the preferred option.

I would have said the same had everything gone to plan, so this had me thinking a bit more about these mains smoke alarms with a battery back up, and my main point still stands, my old one was fitted by an electrician in 2006, i would quite happily have just kept changing the battery in it every time it ran low, so i may have had the same alarm on the ceiling for 20 years, not knowing that the sensors only last 10 years or so, that is the manufacturers saying this. and i am pretty sure most people would have thought the same.
At least with the battery only alarms with a 10 year battery life, sealed in most cases, once they start giving a low battery beep, you have to trash the whole alarm, i already had a 10 year battery life alarm fitted in 2007 and it still worked up until last week pressing the test button, but i thought it should be changed, but some people might have just left it up there if the test button still worked. but again, how many people actually know that smoke alarm sensors degrade after 10 years, i knew nothing about this, so in my opinion, mains powered smoke alarms should be looked at again by the relevant authorities for building guidelines, soon there will be thousands of these alarms fitted to peoples houses with degraded sensors and people just changing the batteries as required for well past the 10 years life of the unit as a whole.

Lenar3556 · 29-11-2020 9:26pm

cranefly wrote: »

I would have said the same had everything gone to plan, so this had me thinking a bit more about these mains smoke alarms with a battery back up, and my main point still stands, my old one was fitted by an electrician in 2006, i would quite happily have just kept changing the battery in it every time it ran low, so i may have had the same alarm on the ceiling for 20 years, not knowing that the sensors only last 10 years or so, that is the manufacturers saying this. and i am pretty sure most people would have thought the same.
At least with the battery only alarms with a 10 year battery life, sealed in most cases, once they start giving a low battery beep, you have to trash the whole alarm, i already had a 10 year battery life alarm fitted in 2007 and it still worked up until last week pressing the test button, but i thought it should be changed, but some people might have just left it up there if the test button still worked. but again, how many people actually know that smoke alarm sensors degrade after 10 years, i knew nothing about this, so in my opinion, mains powered smoke alarms should be looked at again by the relevant authorities for building guidelines, soon there will be thousands of these alarms fitted to peoples houses with degraded sensors and people just changing the batteries as required for well past the 10 years life of the unit as a whole.

For mains powered alarms with battery backup, you have the option of an alkaline usually 9v or lithium rechargeable cells. The latter is superior and they last much longer 10yr+. The mains powered, and some of the battery products also have end of life indication and chirp not only for a battery fault, but also some other failures within the device which are monitored too.

Smoke and heat detection doesn’t really degrade. The same detection technologies are used in commercial buildings without an expiry date. In domestic settings, smoke detection isn’t functionally tested to the same extent it would be in commercial buildings so the 10 year replacement was an arbitrary figure to mitigate against that.

I’m not knocking the 10yr battery products, particularly those from EI Electronics which are very good. But.....if you have the option to mains power, it’s always better.

Pasteur. · 29-11-2020 9:48pm

The EI battery powered equipment is very good in fairness

There will be an expiry date visible afaik when you change a battery on an alarm

29-11-2020 11:35pm

Yea buy EI (aico in UK).
Made in Ireland too

Pasteur. · 30-11-2020 10:14am

BrownFinger wrote: »

Yea buy EI (aico in UK).
Made in Ireland too

What's the recommended now?

Is it optical alarms everywhere except bedrooms?

cranefly · 30-11-2020 8:55pm

Lenar3556 wrote: »

For mains powered alarms with battery backup, you have the option of an alkaline usually 9v or lithium rechargeable cells. The latter is superior and they last much longer 10yr+. The mains powered, and some of the battery products also have end of life indication and chirp not only for a battery fault, but also some other failures within the device which are monitored too.

Smoke and heat detection doesn’t really degrade. The same detection technologies are used in commercial buildings without an expiry date. In domestic settings, smoke detection isn’t functionally tested to the same extent it would be in commercial buildings so the 10 year replacement was an arbitrary figure to mitigate against that.

I’m not knocking the 10yr battery products, particularly those from EI Electronics which are very good. But.....if you have the option to mains power, it’s always better.

I never knew that. so the 10 year unit life is just a guideline, so they could last well past 10 years, maybe 20 years. with a rechargeable battery like you say, that might be way to go, as you say mains powered is the way to go, but with my situation paying a 60 euro call out charge or whatever it is nowadays, just to fix something that i can buy in the shops with a 10 year battery life seems a waste of money, why the electrician who fitted it in the first place left it in such a shambles, that the white wire would just fall out of the ceiling is beyond me.

Pasteur. · 30-11-2020 9:22pm

Those BRK look like sh1t alarms

I think I fitted a lot of them of a different brand name

Build quality of the EI alarms always seemed a cut above the rest

aido79 · 30-11-2020 11:42pm

cranefly wrote: »

I never knew that. so the 10 year unit life is just a guideline, so they could last well past 10 years, maybe 20 years. with a rechargeable battery like you say, that might be way to go, as you say mains powered is the way to go, but with my situation paying a 60 euro call out charge or whatever it is nowadays, just to fix something that i can buy in the shops with a 10 year battery life seems a waste of money, why the electrician who fitted it in the first place left it in such a shambles, that the white wire would just fall out of the ceiling is beyond me.

Will your house insurance cover you if there is a fire and the battery smoke alarm doesn't operate?
It could be the best €60 you ever spend.

cranefly · 01-12-2020 12:08am

OK Lads i kind of get the message now, this thread is a vehicle for a certain brand of smoke alarm, and whatever you do, you need to call on an electrician. I suppose X-sense smoke alarms are probably crap as well, and, No my house insurance is not linked to having a wired smoke alarm, so paying a certified well educated electrician to do a job, oh wait a minute, i actually paid an electrician to do a job all those years back, and he had all the certs needed for his work, and still it was a piss poor job.

aido79 · 01-12-2020 12:33am

cranefly wrote: »

OK Lads i kind of get the message now, this thread is a vehicle for a certain brand of smoke alarm, and whatever you do, you need to call on an electrician. I suppose X-sense smoke alarms are probably crap as well, and, No my house insurance is not linked to having a wired smoke alarm, so paying a certified well educated electrician to do a job, oh wait a minute, i actually paid an electrician to do a job all those years back, and he had all the certs needed for his work, and still it was a piss poor job.

Nobody is pushing you to get any brand of smoke alarm. If you don't want to pay an electrician to fix the issue that's your choice. You're the person who apparently took on to replace a working smoke alarm and hooked it up to a light switch. I'm not sure how you done that to be honest but it should be a very simple fix.
There have been a lot of helpful replies with good advice but you don't seem to be interested. Nobody can force you to follow the regs and install the proper wired smoke alarm so the choice is yours if you want to go with the battery option.

cranefly · 01-12-2020 4:00am

aido79 wrote: »

Nobody is pushing you to get any brand of smoke alarm. If you don't want to pay an electrician to fix the issue that's your choice. You're the person who apparently took on to replace a working smoke alarm and hooked it up to a light switch. I'm not sure how you done that to be honest but it should be a very simple fix.
There have been a lot of helpful replies with good advice but you don't seem to be interested. Nobody can force you to follow the regs and install the proper wired smoke alarm so the choice is yours if you want to go with the battery option.

Some guys have been very helpful, and i really appreciate that, reading some other posts on this thread you can clearly see some advertising to a certain product, if you do not see that, what more can i say. The regs you quote are for new dwellings, others are only recommended, as for your choice of words, "Took on to replace a working smoke alarm and hooked it up to a light switch" firstly its been up there for 14 years, so it needed changing, or would you not agree with that, and hooking up 3 wires to a new smoke alarm should not be that difficult, that any competent person should be able to handle without the need to call in an electrician, but, low and behold i came across a problem with the way it was wired all those years back, and according to you should be a simple fix, that is why i opened this thread in the first place.

aido79 · 01-12-2020 6:00am

cranefly wrote: »

Some guys have been very helpful, and i really appreciate that, reading some other posts on this thread you can clearly see some advertising to a certain product, if you do not see that, what more can i say. The regs you quote are for new dwellings, others are only recommended, as for your choice of words, "Took on to replace a working smoke alarm and hooked it up to a light switch" firstly its been up there for 14 years, so it needed changing, or would you not agree with that, and hooking up 3 wires to a new smoke alarm should not be that difficult, that any competent person should be able to handle without the need to call in an electrician, but, low and behold i came across a problem with the way it was wired all those years back, and according to you should be a simple fix, that is why i opened this thread in the first place.

Nobody has advertised any device. There have been some models suggested which may be better than others.
You were right to change the smoke alarm if the old one was 14 years old. The regs apply to houses built after 1997 so if your house is newer than that it should have wired smoke alarms. If it is older than then battery ones can be used.
You're right, hooking up 3 wires to a smoke alarm should not be that difficult but if the old smoke alarm worked with these 3 wires independently of the light switch then you have done something wrong.
If you can post a picture of the wiring someone may be able to see what's wrong with it.

01-12-2020 11:52am

Pasteur. wrote: »

What's the recommended now?

Is it optical alarms everywhere except bedrooms?

Good guide here

https://www.aico.co.uk/technical_support/choosing-alarm-sensor-types/

Lenar3556 · 01-12-2020 11:55am

BrownFinger wrote: »

Good guide here

https://www.aico.co.uk/technical_support/choosing-alarm-sensor-types/

Pushing that brand again........tut tut

01-12-2020 1:13pm

Lenar3556 wrote: »

Pushing that brand again........tut tut

Yea I have shares in them :P

Pasteur. · 01-12-2020 4:26pm

BrownFinger wrote: »

Good guide here

https://www.aico.co.uk/technical_support/choosing-alarm-sensor-types/

https://www.eielectronics.ie/fire-alarm-select/

Ionisation/optical/ multisensor bedrooms

Heat kitchen

Optical or multisensor elsewhere

cranefly · 01-12-2020 6:07pm

aido79 wrote: »

Nobody has advertised any device. There have been some models suggested which may be better than others.
You were right to change the smoke alarm if the old one was 14 years old. The regs apply to houses built after 1997 so if your house is newer than that it should have wired smoke alarms. If it is older than then battery ones can be used.
You're right, hooking up 3 wires to a smoke alarm should not be that difficult but if the old smoke alarm worked with these 3 wires independently of the light switch then you have done something wrong.
If you can post a picture of the wiring someone may be able to see what's wrong with it.

I get what your saying, next sunny day i will take a few pics, as i need to turn the fuse off that has the hall lights working, it can get dark up there on these grey days. A few tips on which alarms are better is good to be honest, Amazon has pages of them, its hard to figure out which is the best, the combination smoke and carbon monoxide ones came today, they look and feel kind of decent enough, and not as big as i thought they would be, the 10 year battery life is a godsend. just about half of the houses i have been in have no smoke alarm at all, and those that do, i ask them are they working, a few of them gave them a quick check and there was no batteries in them.
The next thing on my list is to get a couple of fire extinguishers, maybe 3. one for upstairs and 2 for downstairs, i have one already but its going on for 20 years old and is not refillable.

Redy321 · 09-12-2020 1:21pm

Here are some useful tips. Has anyone done the same for a restaurant? I want to open my own.

Pasteur. · 09-12-2020 1:22pm

Redy321 wrote: »

Here are some useful tips. Has anyone done the same for a restaurant? I want to open my own.

Restaurant will have a fire panel not mains alarms

Mains smoke alarm

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