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Appeal court rules against public naming of deceased child.

2

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭political analyst


    It is possible that the Supreme Court will overturn the judgement on the grounds that it is an unjustified interference with freedom of expression.

    By the way, the appeal court judgement hasn't prevented the naming of the victim of this killing.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/1116/1178462-dundrum-stabbing/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,861 ✭✭✭Nokia6230i


    It is possible that the Supreme Court will overturn the judgement on the grounds that it is an unjustified interference with freedom of expression.

    By the way, the appeal court judgement hasn't prevented the naming of the victim of this murder.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/1116/1178462-dundrum-stabbing/

    Thought of this thread when I read that case today also; great minds think alike!

    It appears the court judgment is retrospective but also selective?

    Childrens Act needs updating in general terms; 2001 was an era of no social media; traditional media are hamstrung legally whereas Group X or Page Y & unscrupulous Admins. or Mods who don't vet their comments threads mean this rule can be over-ridden; look at the mob who named/shamed (allegedly) the Athlone Double Rapist a few years ago not to mention the baying mob who named Boy A & B (in some cases identifying the wrong person but sure it's no skin off their teeth it appears) & Jamie Bulgers killers too.

    In the case of bringing the baying mobs to heel perhaps this ruling is a Godsend but it's so difficult to prosecute given how widespread these Chinese Whispers become so fast; Whackamole comes to mind.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭political analyst


    The judgement hasn't prevented the naming of the victim or of the perpetrator in the following case.

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-40084016.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭political analyst


    RTÉ was unwilling to say the name of the woman whose sons were murdered by their father but it has named the victim and the perpetrator in this abuse case.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2020/1117/1178796-assault-cork/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭political analyst


    Nokia6230i wrote: »
    Thought of this thread when I read that case today also; great minds think alike!

    It appears the court judgment is retrospective but also selective?

    Childrens Act needs updating in general terms; 2001 was an era of no social media; traditional media are hamstrung legally whereas Group X or Page Y & unscrupulous Admins. or Mods who don't vet their comments threads mean this rule can be over-ridden; look at the mob who named/shamed (allegedly) the Athlone Double Rapist a few years ago not to mention the baying mob who named Boy A & B (in some cases identifying the wrong person but sure it's no skin off their teeth it appears) & Jamie Bulgers killers too.

    In the case of bringing the baying mobs to heel perhaps this ruling is a Godsend but it's so difficult to prosecute given how widespread these Chinese Whispers become so fast; Whackamole comes to mind.

    That's illegal anyway - people are awaiting trial for violating the anonymity order in relation Boys A and B.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭political analyst


    https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2020/1123/1180011-court-rape-name/
    A victim of child rape has succeeded in having her rapist named, 18 months after his conviction.

    The woman, who is now an adult, had also wished to waive her right to anonymity and speak in person about her case.

    However, because of a recent ruling concerning the law on identification of child victims of crime, the media is prevented from publishing her name.

    Declan Hannon, 50, first raped the nine-year-old child during a game of hide-and-seek when he was aged 17. He raped her three more times during the summer in around 1987 or 1989.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,758 ✭✭✭stockshares


    The judgement hasn't prevented the naming of the victim or of the perpetrator in the following case.

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-40084016.html
    RTÉ was unwilling to say the name of the woman whose sons were murdered by their father but it has named the victim and the perpetrator in this abuse case.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2020/1117/1178796-assault-cork/

    Any idea of why the inconsistency?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,861 ✭✭✭Nokia6230i


    Am sure we all know of the case but now that a person has been charged their names become anonymised til further notice/bill amended > https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/1129/1181259-murder-charge/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭political analyst


    Any idea of why the inconsistency?

    No.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭political analyst


    Micheál Martin has told the Irish Daily Star that the government will take swift action to have the law changed to permit the naming of murderers of children.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭political analyst




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,758 ✭✭✭stockshares



    I hope so but I would be skeptical of anything she says.

    The amount of decisions that are made in the courts that don't benefit children at all would make you wonder about the Judges that made them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,002 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    I think it will be changed.

    To not change it would be a kick in the face for many who have lost children in fairness. It is ridiculous as it stands and everyone knows it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭political analyst


    I hope so but I would be skeptical of anything she says.

    The amount of decisions that are made in the courts that don't benefit children at all would make you wonder about the Judges that made them.

    Why? She seems sincere.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭political analyst


    https://www.newstalk.com/news/laws-allowing-child-killers-to-be-named-will-be-tabled-as-soon-as-possible-mcentee-1116612
    She said she expects to bring forward the new legislation by January at the latest.

    “I would like to bring the heads of bills or proposal to Government in the next few weeks,” she said.

    “It might not be possible as we have only two weeks left in the Dáil but if it is not before Christmas, it will certainly be in January.”


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,861 ✭✭✭Nokia6230i


    Another case; I don't think the person charged here (there was another charged with impeding investigation subsequently to killing also) would necessarily identify the suspect as a family member which is what I suspect a lot of Section 252 mis/interpretation was/is about but the killing is notorious & I guess locally if the mans name was given out the kid could be identified that way.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/1213/1184141-man-charged-teen-death/

    No matter what we think of the kids actions he is just that in eyes of law at 17, a child, a juvenile, a minor.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭political analyst


    Nokia6230i wrote: »
    Another case; I don't think the person charged here (there was another charged with impeding investigation subsequently to killing also) would necessarily identify the suspect as a family member which is what I suspect a lot of Section 252 mis/interpretation was/is about but the killing is notorious & I guess locally if the mans name was given out the kid could be identified that way.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/1213/1184141-man-charged-teen-death/

    No matter what we think of the kids actions he is just that in eyes of law at 17, a child, a juvenile, a minor.

    After you posted that link the article was updated to state the defendant's name. Obviously, he's not related to the deceased.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭political analyst


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Never mind the constitution, there's a plain common-sense requirement that legislators should consider legislation carefully before they enact it.

    We're in the position we're in because the existing legislation wasn't fully thought through when it was enacted. And you want to solve that by passing new legislation with even less consideration than the existing legislation got. What could possibly go wrong?

    Brenda Power wrote in The Sunday Times last week that the change in the law only requires the addition of one sentence. Why is it taking weeks or months to do that?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,462 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Brenda Power wrote in The Sunday Times last week that the change in the law only requires the addition of one sentence. Why is it taking weeks or months to do that?

    Brenda Power the expert in drafting legislation? Or Brenda Power the Junior Counsel who doesn't claim any expertise in drafting legislation?

    https://www.lawlibrary.ie/members/Brenda-Power/1113.aspx


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭political analyst


    Brenda Power the expert in drafting legislation? Or Brenda Power the Junior Counsel who doesn't claim any expertise in drafting legislation?

    https://www.lawlibrary.ie/members/Brenda-Power/1113.aspx

    It can't be much more difficult than a barrister's day-to-day work.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,226 ✭✭✭Credit Checker Moose


    It is an expert job to draft legislation.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,491 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    It can't be much more difficult than a barrister's day-to-day work.

    The thing is, many barristers focus on particular areas of work. Some only do tax law, company law, planning law, etc. That rules all of them out. There there is criminal law - a chunk of them focus on finding the loopholes to protect their clients. You are left with a list of those who prosecute very serious crimes and those that deal with child protection issue. That overlap might be quite small. Whoever you pick then has to review the entire law to make sure there is no conflict between existing law (criminal, civil rights, child protection, etc.) and the proposed law. It is not straightforward.

    I did law as a subject in college, not a course. I review council bye-laws. Often if can take me only minutes to find an error. Some of the errors I find are profound. Would you condemn the memory of children to precipitous action?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,552 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Does she even practice anymore? Thought she'd gone fully for the op/ed and broadcasting work by now.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭political analyst


    Victor wrote: »
    The thing is, many barristers focus on particular areas of work. Some only do tax law, company law, planning law, etc. That rules all of them out. There there is criminal law - a chunk of them focus on finding the loopholes to protect their clients. You are left with a list of those who prosecute very serious crimes and those that deal with child protection issue. That overlap might be quite small. Whoever you pick then has to review the entire law to make sure there is no conflict between existing law (criminal, civil rights, child protection, etc.) and the proposed law. It is not straightforward.

    I did law as a subject in college, not a course. I review council bye-laws. Often if can take me only minutes to find an error. Some of the errors I find are profound. Would you condemn the memory of children to precipitous action?

    But the memory of those children is obscured by the recent appeal court judgement. Those children's families want to be able to talk to the media with the children's names made known to the public. What else matters?!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,690 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Brenda Power wrote in The Sunday Times last week that the change in the law only requires the addition of one sentence. Why is it taking weeks or months to do that?
    Did she by any chance say what the one sentence was?

    If yes, what was it?

    If not, why not?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,690 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    But the memory of those children is obscured by the recent appeal court judgement. Those children's families want to be able to talk to the media with the children's names made known to the public. What else matters?!
    Other children might matter. How does Brenda Power's one sentence affect the cases of other children in different circumstances?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,441 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    I saw the Irish Times yesterday named the 17 year old deceased for the person from Drogheda charged at the Dundalk Courthouse. Surprised that got through based on this.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭political analyst


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Other children might matter. How does Brenda Power's one sentence affect the cases of other children in different circumstances?

    What children might they be? The following was posted earlier on this thread.
    Peregrinus wrote: »
    But we need to think about what change should be made. It would be simple to say that the law doesn't apply to a child who has died, but that might be too crude. Suppose a child who is the victim of a crime has died, but the death is unrelated to the crime. Now the media can identify the child and write what they like; this might cause considerable distress to the child's family. Or, suppose that a child is a victim of murder or manslaughter in circumstances where they child was engaged in sex work, or committing a burglary, or joyriding, or whatever. Again, you can see considerable distress to the family resulting if there is no protection at all.

    So maybe the change should be one in which court permission is still required, but where the child is deceased the court must consider the interests, not of the child, but of the child's family. But, of course, where the offender is a member of the child's family - which, in child death cases, will often be so - then it's not in the interests of the child's family to identify the child, since that will also identify the offender.

    In short, there's a wide variety of possible situations here, and a short one-size-fits-all rule about naming deceased children is not likely to be satisfactory. It's easy to say that the present law is satisfactory; it's a bigger job to work out what a satisfactory law would say. What set of principles should be applied to protect the dignity of a deceased child, and the feelings of the surviving family?

    If a child victim's death is unrelated to the crime, that's academic because a person's death is a matter of public record - not wanting others to know that one of your relatives has died sounds absurd.

    As for a child victim being the victim of prostitution before death, public knowledge of that fact would not diminish the victim's innocence and thus would not be 'victim-blaming'.

    It was secrecy that led to sexual abuse of children in institutions and in families taking place for years before intervention took place.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭political analyst


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Did she by any chance say what the one sentence was?

    If yes, what was it?

    If not, why not?

    No. But it's obvious what she said should happen - change the law so that the names of child murder victims can be mentioned by the media, so that their relatives can make sure that the victims' names are known to the public. Furthermore, there is also the matter of child sexual abuse victims who have since reached adulthood and whose perpetrators have been convicted having the choice of whether to waive anonymity.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,861 ✭✭✭Nokia6230i


    Very interesting case; Mr. Gregory, a Paedophile, might've benefited but the judge here clearly disagreed regarding Section 252

    "The subsequent Court of Appeal did indeed interpret section 252 at extending past the death or “ageing out” of child victims but Justice Hunt said the section still allowed the court to dispense with the reporting prohibition where the court “is satisfied that it is appropriate to do so in the interests of the child”."

    He could've appealed; he had 28 Days to do so but didn't.

    https://www.sundayworld.com/crime/courts/court-lifts-order-preventing-the-naming-of-wicklow-man-who-raped-his-step-sons-39892378.html?fbclid=IwAR2v0P_XybYxWxMH6_inDGCgiuEmKYybCEOkxtGJXJDZj79fJsGuscMugn0

    If the kids, now adults in this, hadn't pursued it, and there is most certainly merit in him being named even if it does identify them (though they're not named in the article; I've no reason, as the reader, to want to know; it was more important for their request he be named to be acceded to & if the media elsewhere've kept their names out of it at national level fair play to them; it's a win-win for the survivors), he could've remained anonymous as so many child sexual abusers are.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,861 ✭✭✭Nokia6230i


    Section 252 strikes again. The victim in the case here & the defendants couldn't be named; the guy got community service in lieu of 4 months in prison.

    Claimed he didn't know it was an offence......of course not lad.........such b/s.

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-40200939.html

    Also in Irish Times Weekend on Saturday they did a list of upcoming events and one of them is an upcoming appeal by a defendant for the murder of a teenager; again we know which one/who it is due to its notoriety.....how long more will we be waiting for Section 252 to be rectified?

    By Summer recess in July maybe?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,861 ✭✭✭Nokia6230i


    Not a clue which one this is/was; the judge even directed the location of the crime be kept out of the media; "South of the Country" doesn't exactly narrow it down.

    Would imagine the media have to retrospectively edit their pieces from when the boy was arrested as well as when the man was arrested.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2021/0118/1190458-south-murder/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,497 ✭✭✭cml387


    Nokia6230i wrote: »
    Not a clue which one this is/was; the judge even directed the location of the crime be kept out of the media; "South of the Country" doesn't exactly narrow it down.

    Would imagine the media have to retrospectively edit their pieces from when the boy was arrested as well as when the man was arrested.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2021/0118/1190458-south-murder/

    A quick Google search will give you the answer.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,861 ✭✭✭Nokia6230i


    Wonder how local & national media will deal retrospecitvely when (eventually.....) Section 252 is altered?

    Will they re-run articles (with consent of victims/families of course)?

    Another one where victim wished to waive her anonymity but Section 252 strikes again > https://www.longfordleader.ie/news/national/603573/man-jailed-for-repeatedly-raping-a-child-over-a-two-year-period.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

    Unusually he is to serve the sentence consecutively to a "15" year term he is already serving dating back, by my interpretation, to 2015 or 2017; would expect a CofA approach on grounds of severity/light at end of tunnel type plea & for it to be reduced and/or to be ordered to run concurrently.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,861 ✭✭✭Mysterypunter


    I would take issue with the law in this case as a lot of people who commit these type of violent crimes, do not accept their guilt, and move away to start a new life, putting other people at risk of falling victim to their tendencies, which in my opinion are not curable or treatable, although the bleeding hearts will always opt for light sentencing and treatment programmes. Psychopathic behaviour is not reverseable, and will always manifest itself in horrible ways, realistically, there are plenty of horrible and dangerous people in society who shouldn't be, because of the soft approach and under resourced prison system. The obvious thing to do is to put yourself in a hypothetical situation. A man, or could be a woman, kills a child, is not named or known, and receives a light sentence due to a grovelling defense team, who would deny Hitler killed millions, the perpetrator is released after 4 years, moves away, joins a dating site, and finds a lovely separated mother of one child. He is charming and fun, and gets on well with the child, which is a real bit of luck. After 3 months, it's all going well, and the woman introduces the man to family and friends gradually, one evening the woman asks him to mind, the child while she heads out for a couple of hours with the girls, I'll leave it there, but I'm sure you can fill in the rest, let's just say she let the fox in charge of the chickens. Many will argue that my mind has gone to fantasy land, but sadly psychopathic behaviour may be much worse than you or I can imagine. This is one of the many reasons for naming and knowing the identity of killers, especially child killers, but as usual, people will have conflicting views.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,690 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I would take issue with the law in this case as a lot of people who commit these type of violent crimes, do not accept their guilt, and move away to start a new life, putting other people at risk of falling victim to their tendencies, which in my opinion are not curable or treatable, although the bleeding hearts will always opt for light sentencing and treatment programmes. Psychopathic behaviour is not reverseable, and will always manifest itself in horrible ways, realistically, there are plenty of horrible and dangerous people in society who shouldn't be, because of the soft approach and under resourced prison system. The obvious thing to do is to put yourself in a hypothetical situation. A man, or could be a woman, kills a child, is not named or known, and receives a light sentence due to a grovelling defense team, who would deny Hitler killed millions, the perpetrator is released after 4 years, moves away, joins a dating site, and finds a lovely separated mother of one child. He is charming and fun, and gets on well with the child, which is a real bit of luck. After 3 months, it's all going well, and the woman introduces the man to family and friends gradually, one evening the woman asks him to mind, the child while she heads out for a couple of hours with the girls, I'll leave it there, but I'm sure you can fill in the rest, let's just say she let the fox in charge of the chickens. Many will argue that my mind has gone to fantasy land, but sadly psychopathic behaviour may be much worse than you or I can imagine. This is one of the many reasons for naming and knowing the identity of killers, especially child killers, but as usual, people will have conflicting views.
    You're in the wrong thread, MP. The discussion here is not about laws on the naming of perpetrators; it's about laws about the naming of victims.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,690 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Nokia6230i wrote: »
    Wonder how local & national media will deal retrospecitvely when (eventually.....) Section 252 is altered?

    Will they re-run articles (with consent of victims/families of course)?
    I suspect it will depend on how sensational the particular crime was.

    The main point of allowing victims to be names is to allow media coverage that focusses more on the victim, and tells us something about the, so that the public record of this appalling incident presents us with a fuller picture of the victim, who is not just a nameless child that was murdered.

    But, the sad truth is, the public's horrified fascination is generally with the perpetrator more than the victim. We want to know who would do such a thing, what brought them to the point where they would do it, how is such depravity to be understood or accounted for, etc, etc. Rerunning the coverage of the crime, but with the addition of the name and possibly some other information about the victim, doesn't usually contribute more to our undertanding of the perpetrator.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,861 ✭✭✭Nokia6230i


    So, riddle me this then.

    Why doesn't Section 252 kick in here? Because she waived her right to anonymity right?

    If she hadn't, he couldn't've been named because since it was brother/half-sister by naming him it would've effectively named her right?

    The judge here, while wary of Section 252, waived the anonymity clause (both were juveniles when it happened); no point in defendant appealing it was it's not quite something that can be reversed; the genie's out of the bottle now.

    https://www.sundayworld.com/crime/courts/man-who-orally-raped-his-half-sister-when-he-was-teenager-given-one-year-sentence-40023202.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,690 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    There's no riddle.

    Why doesn't section 252 kick in here? It does kick in. Because of s. 252(1), media reports may not name or identify the victim, or publish her picture, or give details likely to lead to her being identified, unless the court makes an order under s.252(2) allowing them to do so. The court can only make an order under s.252(2) " if it is satisfied that it is appropriate to do so in the interests of the child". If it does make such an order, s. 252(3) requires the court to "explain in open court why it is satisfied it should do so".

    And that's exactly what happened. The victim, who was a child at the time but is now an adult, indicated that she wished to be named in reports. The prosecutor applied to court for an order allowing her to be named. The court made the order, and the judge made a statement of his reasoning. All this is described in the linked report.

    The offender could appeal but, as you say, there would be no point now. He could have indicated at the time of the trial that he intended to appeal, and asked for a stay on the order allowing identification, pending the outcome of the appeal against it.

    But on the facts reported it seems unlikely that the appeal would have met with much success. The fact that the offender would be prejudiced by the publication of his name or other identifying matieral is irrelevant; the only consideration the court is required to take into account is whether publication is in the interests of the child victim. So the appeal would have to have argued that it was not in the interests of the victim that the victim or the offender be named, and as the victim is now an adult and considers that it is in her interests, that would be hard argument to make.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,762 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/1029/1174666-court-of-appeal-children/
    Does this mean that, if the Court of Appeal had passed this judgement before Ana was murdered, her parents would have been unable to have her name or family photos of her published in the media?

    I see that a man has been arrested over the stabbing of Josh Dunne, and Josh is named in all the reports. If this man is charged, will papers be unable to name the victim at that stage?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,690 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I see that a man has been arrested over the stabbing of Josh Dunne, and Josh is named in all the reports. If this man is charged, will papers be unable to name the victim at that stage?
    Yes, that's right. Unless and until s. 252 is amended.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,762 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    https://www.buzz.ie/news/man-35-charged-in-connection-with-killing-of-dublin-teenager-415194
    A man has been charged with the killing of 16-year-old in north Dublin and is due to appear before court later this afternoon. 

    The teen, from Ballymun, was wounded in the confrontation at around 9.20pm on Tuesday.
    He was stabbed at least once and was rushed to the Mater Hospital – but lost his fight for life at around 10pm.
    The child cannot be named because reporting restrictions under the Children's Act prevent the release of any information that could lead to the identification of any child victim of crime, living or deceased.

    How long before this law is changed?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling



    The judge was apparently challenged twice by a news editor as to what law this was under he had ordered the ruling and refused to answer before leaving the bench


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,690 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Gatling wrote: »
    The judge was apparently challenged twice by a news editor as to what law this was under he had ordered the ruling and refused to answer before leaving the bench
    I am very sceptical of this claim; on the face of it it looks like rubbish. News editors don't hang around in courtrooms waiting to leap to their feet and harangue judges on the bench about orders just made; they have actual jobs to do. And if any of them tried it, the resulting imprisonment for contempt would be front-page news.

    Can you give us a source for this? Are you sure you didn't just credulously fall for some sh!te on a freemannish website somewhere?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,896 ✭✭✭Irishphotodesk


    Gatling wrote: »
    The judge was apparently challenged twice by a news editor as to what law this was under he had ordered the ruling and refused to answer before leaving the bench

    It was legals on behalf of a newspaper , which is normal ....is it's normal enough for a judge when challenged to ignore it and walk off the bench ? I have only ever witnessed it when the challenge was some sort of Freeman/strawman type argument.
    I have witnessed legals threaten judges with JR if they continue to ignore.

    Am I correct or wrong when I say that I believe the section applies to the deceased being known to the accused (ie. A relationship parent/child) and is/has been misinterpreted recently.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭political analyst


    Interestingly, the appeal court judgement doesn't prevent newspapers from naming the victim, who has waived her anonymity, in this case. She was also interviewed for this week's Sunday World, which shows a picture of her and her first name with a surname different from the one shown on the following page.

    https://www.thejournal.ie/bernard-maguire-jailed-oral-rape-half-sister-5338373-Jan2021/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,874 ✭✭✭Edgware


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    I am very sceptical of this claim; on the face of it it looks like rubbish. News editors don't hang around in courtrooms waiting to leap to their feet and harangue judges on the bench about orders just made; they have actual jobs to do. And if any of them tried it, the resulting imprisonment for contempt would be front-page news.

    Can you give us a source for this? Are you sure you didn't just credulously fall for some sh!te on a freemannish website somewhere?

    The solicitor was present probably on the instruction of the newspapers legal advisors. Having been brushed off by the Judge they now have cause to go to the High Court to try and get the decision overturned.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,690 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    It was legals on behalf of a newspaper , which is normal ....is it's normal enough for a judge when challenged to ignore it and walk off the bench ? I have only ever witnessed it when the challenge was some sort of Freeman/strawman type argument.
    I have witnessed legals threaten judges with JR if they continue to ignore.
    I'm still not seeing any actual source for this story.
    Am I correct or wrong when I say that I believe the section applies to the deceased being known to the accused (ie. A relationship parent/child) and is/has been misinterpreted recently.
    The section is designed to protect the identity of the child victim. It prohibits the publication of the victim's name, etc, or of anything which would tend to identify the victim. A huge proportion of crimes against children are committed by people related to or known to the child, so identifying the offender will frequently tend to identify the victim also.

    But, yeah - if you had, say, a motoring offence which resulted in the death of a child pedestrian who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time but had no other connection to the offender, naming the offender would not tend to identify the victim, and the media could safely name the offender.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,690 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Interestingly, the appeal court judgement doesn't prevent newspapers from naming the victim, who has waived her anonymity, in this case. She was also interviewed for this week's Sunday World, which shows a picture of her and her first name with a surname different from the one shown on the following page.

    https://www.thejournal.ie/bernard-maguire-jailed-oral-rape-half-sister-5338373-Jan2021/

    The Journal report doesn't say so, but in that case I believe an order was made permitting the victim to be identified (and part of the reasoning for making the order was that the victim was now an adult and wished to be identified).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Peregrinus wrote: »

    Can you give us a source for this?

    I believe it was broadcast on either rte that evening ,
    The reported stated the judge was challenged by a independent media solicitor twice as to what law he applying the restrictions under

    Rte 9 o'clock news Saturday 30-1-21
    10:29 in

    https://www.rte.ie/player/series/rté-news-nine-o-clock/SI0000001468?epguid=IH000399140


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