Driving licence - absolute farce of a system and 83,000 waiting

sunshine1977 · 14-02-2019 5:27pm #1

Just need to put this out there as its been bugging me for sometime.
You have a 60% failure rate against you before you even put a foot in the door in Finglas and most of Dublin – 2018 stats.
On the other hand, down the country, where most of the tragedies are happening, you have approx 60% pass rate.
You are failed on outlandish things like not looking over your shoulder once or twice extra. Reversing around the corner (perfectly) doesn’t seem to count if you don’t check your shoulders enough. Hitting the brakes too quickly when someone stops suddenly is apparently a fail also.
In my first test, in Finglas, I was told I handled the car very well, that there was nothing wrong with my driving, but still failed.
Second time, I had a horrible human terminator, who made me very nervous and had me failed before even looking at me.
I am so stressed and p+*sed of with the system in this country. You can’t even repeat your test before waiting another 3 mths for a cancellation or 6 months, you’ve to go through the whole long withdrawn system again, they’ll squeeze every penny out of you, and then fail you.
I have little confidence and faith left.
Minister Ross is an absolute sham of a minister, he put’s all the onus back on the public to sort out his mess that he hasn’t the aptitude to fix.
So hey, lets bring in the Clancy amendment and seize ALL their cars, but lets not look at the crux of the problem - Deliberately low pass rates, archaic passing system, back log of 6 months, 83,000 people waiting to sit their sits, accident blackspots with high pass rates, I could go on and on. And not to mention the nice little pot of money he’s putting back into the coffers of the country. SHAM – IT’S BROKEN MINISTER ROSS – BROKEN.

Amirani · 14-02-2019 6:00pm

If you drive better in your test then you'll pass it. If you want to ensure you drive better then you should do more lessons and/or practice.

Witcher · 14-02-2019 6:03pm

How many times have you really failed now OP?

jimmycrackcorm · 14-02-2019 7:05pm

sunshine1977 wrote:

Just need to put this out there as its been bugging me for sometime. You have a 60% failure rate against you before you even put a foot in the door in Finglas and most of Dublin â€“ 2018 stats. On the other hand, down the country, where most of the tragedies are happening, you have approx 60% pass rate. .

You think that the tragedies are a result of pass rates and not because the disparity with travel speed in clogged up Dublin?

Dravokivich · 14-02-2019 7:22pm

Nothing wrong with my licence. Had it within 5 days of giving in my cert to the ndls too.

Plumbthedepths · 14-02-2019 7:25pm

All I get from your post is it's someone else's fault you failed your test 2 times. If you truly believe it's easier pass outside of Dublin, apply elsewhere.

ASOT · 14-02-2019 7:31pm

I passed first time in Finglas, if you deserve to pass youll pass.

Simple_Simone · 14-02-2019 7:33pm

So, if Shame Ross loses his seat in the next election you reckon that the problems with the driving test will magically disappear overnight? God bless your innocence!

I suggest that you buy a taxsaver commuter ticket and/or a bicycle and quit moaning, problem solved!

Start here: https://www.taxsaver.ie

ayux4rj6zql2ph · 14-02-2019 7:47pm

OP I did my tests in 3 separate counties, I assure you it’s not what you insinuate, I.e a quota based system. Are you getting lessons/ practicing the route?

Fail to prepare, prepare to fail

donkey balls · 15-02-2019 12:30am

Will be doing the Mini bus test sometime this year it be my first test in 21 years last test was Artic out of Finglas.

Jim Gazebo · 15-02-2019 1:04am

While I do feel OP is influenced by his current predicament, I feel he is touching on an important issue, I do feel the rule changes and way things are being managed are an unnecessary pressure on the learner.

Take for example, OP works hard at his first job. Gets a car, with L plates, to learn to drive. His parents don't drive. His only sister is the same. He wants to progress himself but has no one to to drive with him. He then abides by the rules, just paying for lessons with his instructor. Then, one night there is an emergency at his job, they ask him to come in, so he drives. On the way, a fully licenced driver smashes into the car after three pints. The first thing garda looks at is the unaccompanied driver I guarantee you. It then becomes one of the stat when clearly the drunk fully licenced driver is the only problem.

I know it is hypothetical and things can change but I guess the point I am trying to make is that, I am a fully licenced driver about 6 months now and my dad freely admits to me, as a man who has driven for 50 years, that L and N drivers are (excl. A minority) the most careful on the road. That when he gets in the car with me he notices I check tenfold more than him and don't take as many risks. This shows the system works for the majority of normal young people. I didnt drive unaccompanied at all. But I was lucky I could afford to learn like that as it was all lessons , after working In a decent job. Not many can.

So maybe we should trust our system and leave it as it was and try and help young people progress on wit life at a young age? Rather than restricting them at every turn in life.

Plumbthedepths · 15-02-2019 1:17am

Jim Gazebo wrote:

So maybe we should trust our system and leave it as it was and try and help young people progress on wit life at a young age? Rather than restricting them at every turn in life.

The 'system' already forbid 'L' drivers from driving unaccompanied, the only difference is that now it is being enforced and rightly so.

Jim Gazebo · 15-02-2019 1:27am

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

The 'system' already forbid 'L' drivers from driving unaccompanied, the only difference is that now it is being enforced and rightly so.

I'm disagreeing with you here, it's been done to death, but we hold back our young people too much. The amount of people my age who can't drive, or even move out of home is astonishing. I'm 25!!!

Not disagreeing that law was there and being enforced now, disagreeing about the rightly so part.

Plumbthedepths · 15-02-2019 1:37am

Jim Gazebo wrote:

I'm disagreeing with you here, it's been done to death, but we hold back our young people too much. The amount of people my age who can't drive, or even move out of home is astonishing. I'm 25!!!

Holding people back by enforcing existing laws, lol. You're 25?

doolox · 15-02-2019 2:06am

...to finance some peoples driving instruction and testing costs in order to get them mobile and out of the many rural unemployment hellholes that exist outside the urban areas of this badly planned and chaotic island.

Unless there are jobs and a vibrant economic environment people should not be allowed to build houses in isolated places and have children when they cannot afford to teach them to drive and rely on a Nelsonian blind eye solution to a big problem.

Learners were allowed to drive unaccompanied because the state would not hire and use enough testers to go through tests in a reasonable time.

Too much pandering to vested unionised interests and overzealous consideration to safety "experts" is taking place at a high level simply because learner drivers have no political power and the licencing authority holds all the aces.

Too many established qualified adult drivers perceive young novice drivers as a nuisance and a bother on the roads and are happy to let this travesty continue.

Test times are 17 weeks in Kilrush, while they are 6 weeks in Deansgrange, not a million miles from Ross's local area. You can bet the denizens of DLR would not tolerate a 17 week waiting time as the poor misfortunates have to endure in Kilrush.

Several things are needed to alleviate this crisis. More testers. Less pandering to union vested interests and increased service hours and availability like is done with NCT, to their credit, who work weekends and evenings to provide a service to the overtaxed and harrassed motoring public.

Also needed is standardisation and uniformity in the results and failure rates accrued in the different test areas. Teachers and testers of state exams have to attend training in marking exams so as to ensure uniformity in results and allay public fears of corruption or skewing of test results. Does the same thing apply to driver testers??? Does the government allow them "self regulation" or let them away with a highly variable and slow service???

The state needs to get its own house in order before going after young people and robbing their cars unless they can enable them to get the necessary licences in a reasonable time frame. 6 weeks would be far better than a near farcical 17 weeks. Hopefully the compulsory 12 lessons should improve standards pre test . But the standard of instruction can be a lottery.

the_syco · 15-02-2019 3:47am

sunshine1977 wrote: »

You are failed on outlandish things like not looking over your shoulder once or twice extra.

Otherwise called checking your blindspot. Got T-boned by some fecker in a carpark as they didn't check their blind spot.

sunshine1977 wrote: »

Reversing around the corner (perfectly) doesn’t seem to count if you don’t check your shoulders enough.

Again. blind spots.

sunshine1977 wrote: »

Hitting the brakes too quickly when someone stops suddenly is apparently a fail also.

So you too near them?

sunshine1977 wrote: »

In my first test, in Finglas, I was told I handled the car very well, that there was nothing wrong with my driving, but still failed.

So you got failed for not looking over your shoulder to check your blind spots?

sunshine1977 wrote: »

but lets not look at the crux of the problem - Deliberately low pass rates,

Otherwise called; crap drivers?

Eggs For Dinner · 15-02-2019 8:45am

The system is not "broken" OP. In fact it is working perfectly if it means that drivers who fail a basic test as often as you have do not drive unaccompanied until you reach the standard

Wishbone Ash · 15-02-2019 9:09am

sunshine1977 wrote: »

... I was told I handled the car very well ....

Many people who can 'handle' a car very well are not good drivers. When I was a child I lived a few doors from a very well known and nationally successful rally driver. Outside of rallying he drove a small car with L plates as he had trouble passing the test.

sunshine1977 wrote:

...You can’t even repeat your test before waiting another 3 mths for a cancellation or 6 months, you’ve to go through the whole long withdrawn system again.... ......archaic passing system, back log of 6 months, 83,000 people waiting to sit their sits, .

You do realise that much of the waiting times are caused by learners not showing up for their test? There used to be 350,000 on the waiting list with a waiting time of over 2.5 years. It has dramatically improved.

I did the tests in all categories in Finglas. Where I failed, I deserved to fail. There's nothing wrong with Finglas as a test center.

witchgirl26 · 15-02-2019 9:28am

OP I feel you to some degree. I failed my test 3 times before I passed and it was annoying and expensive. That said, there is literally only one of those ones that I would argue. And even then, I'd probably only argue down the red mark I got as opposed to the fail.

Yes it sucks to fail when you think you've done a good job but then that's what tests are - someone is qualified to determine if you have done a good enough job. Part of the reason the fail rates are higher in urban areas is that during the test itself there are often more hazards to deal with in urban areas. I had to pass 3 schools in one of my tests at 3pm in the afternoon when they were all letting out. You wouldn't have that in a lot of the country test centres. I'm not moaning about the country ones btw - just pointing out that it is a slightly different set of skills needed to drive in urban and country areas.

Oh I did my test in both Finglas and Raheny.

Conflats · 15-02-2019 9:45am

I did both my tests in carlow at the time when less than 30% of people were passing. At the time the tester had a awful reputation for failing people if they were practising 1 of the test routes and he seen them in the instructors car.
The next time that instructor had somebody borrow there car for the test he would fail them.

On the day of my 1st test I had a tester and a person assessing the tester. I failed that day for the main reason I got flustered and stalled the car in the middle of a roadworks on a right turn.

6 months later I saved up, bought my 1st car drove it with the auld lady beside me for no reason other than she had to be there. She wasn't in control of the car or able to do anything. I drove her everywhere for a month coming up to my test and passed it with no marks whatsoever with the same tester. Practice makes perfect and driving anywhere and everywhere to build confidence was key.

On day of my test the tester after we got back to the centre came out with the line that stuck with me 'how do you think I drive?' sure what else could I answer knowing his reputation only reply the correct way... He subsequently got removed from his position and I believe carlow had a much better pass rate overnight (my driving instructor was my neighbour and told me).

Long story short op, get out and practice and stop complaining about things you can't change, you can practice and build confidence in driving and become a better safer driver

jimgoose · 15-02-2019 11:38am

When you can take the pebble from my hand, it will be time for you to leave

Pretzill · 16-02-2019 12:15am

I actually think the system is getting better. I think having to complete a series of lessons now is helpful to the L driver. I do think there should be extra lessons on parking. On the outside of the capital versus Dublin test centres and driving. I passed in Sligo, in my test I had to drive partially on a dual carriageway maximum speed 100 and various roundabouts, one way systems, areas with lots of parked cars and built up town and estates. The whole shebang versus a smaller (certainly by area) part of Dublin and a less slow (certainly in terms of Dublin traffic) areas - So I think they are much better training grounds. Mix that with rural, twisty, one vehicle widtb roads and yep driving in the country certainly offers you an all round experience.

Shefwedfan · 16-02-2019 12:23am

A high percentage of people outside Dublin would be from a farming background, learning to drive on a 4 wheel drive tractor with a 20ft trailer on the back of it, been able to reverse that tractor and trailer into gateway etc

Also the access to large fields during summer even to just get hang of driving car without going onto road is great experience

Getting asked to jump into a fiesta and do a 3 point turn is fairly simple then

Jim Gazebo · 16-02-2019 1:06am

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Holding people back by enforcing existing laws, lol. You're 25?

Yes the existing laws are holding back young people. What age are you? My age was only an example in terms of my experience of the system... I should have been able to get a licence much younger which would have made my college years way easier but the laws forbid me learning.

Bigmac1euro · 16-02-2019 1:07am

Jim Gazebo wrote: »

Take for example, OP works hard at his first job. Gets a car, with L plates, to learn to drive. His parents don't drive. His only sister is the same. He wants to progress himself but has no one to to drive with him. He then abides by the rules, just paying for lessons with his instructor. Then, one night there is an emergency at his job, they ask him to come in, so he drives. On the way, a fully licenced driver smashes into the car after three pints. The first thing garda looks at is the unaccompanied driver I guarantee you. It then becomes one of the stat when clearly the drunk fully licenced driver is the only problem.

Every accident that happens in the country both drivers are breathalysed by gardai when they arrive on the scene. The learner would probably receive points in this case and the drunk driver is automatically banned.

Jim Gazebo · 16-02-2019 1:08am

Conflats wrote: »

I did both my tests in carlow at the time when less than 30% of people were passing. At the time the tester had a awful reputation for failing people if they were practising 1 of the test routes and he seen them in the instructors car.
The next time that instructor had somebody borrow there car for the test he would fail them.

On the day of my 1st test I had a tester and a person assessing the tester. I failed that day for the main reason I got flustered and stalled the car in the middle of a roadworks on a right turn.

6 months later I saved up, bought my 1st car drove it with the auld lady beside me for no reason other than she had to be there. She wasn't in control of the car or able to do anything. I drove her everywhere for a month coming up to my test and passed it with no marks whatsoever with the same tester. Practice makes perfect and driving anywhere and everywhere to build confidence was key.

On day of my test the tester after we got back to the centre came out with the line that stuck with me 'how do you think I drive?' sure what else could I answer knowing his reputation only reply the correct way... He subsequently got removed from his position and I believe carlow had a much better pass rate overnight (my driving instructor was my neighbour and told me).

Long story short op, get out and practice and stop complaining about things you can't change, you can practice and build confidence in driving and become a better safer driver

What if OP cannot practice legally? This is my point.

Jim Gazebo · 16-02-2019 1:09am

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

Every accident that happens in the country both drivers are breathalysed by gardai when they arrive on the scene. The learner would probably receive points in this case and the drunk driver is automatically banned.

I know that would eventually happen at the scene. But in the first instance it is what the garda would recognise.

Charles Babbage · 16-02-2019 1:16am

Jim Gazebo wrote: »

Yes the existing laws are holding back young people. What age are you? My age was only an example in terms of my experience of the system... I should have been able to get a licence much younger which would have made my college years way easier but the laws forbid me learning.

In what way did the laws forbid you learning? You can get a licence at 17.

There is an entitlement culture here, which no doubt contributes to the failure rate.

Plumbthedepths · 16-02-2019 1:22am

Jim Gazebo wrote:

I know that would eventually happen at the scene. But in the first instance it is what the garda would recognise.

In the first instance the Guard would notice the smell of alcohol.

Jim Gazebo · 16-02-2019 1:26am

Charles Babbage wrote: »

In what way did the laws forbid you learning? You can get a licence at 17.

There is an entitlement culture here, which no doubt contributes to the failure rate.

How do you legally practice learning to drive when you have no family with a full licence?

slipperyox · 16-02-2019 1:33am

Amirani wrote: »

If you drive better in your test then you'll pass it. If you want to ensure you drive better then you should do more lessons and/or practice.

Are you allowed an in car camera during test?

That aside

Fail

Repeat test and drive the exact same....

Tester: Big improvement over last time, you passed.

Conclusion: Bell curve

Guy:Incognito · 16-02-2019 1:36am

Jim Gazebo wrote: »

How do you legally practice learning to drive when you have no family with a full licence?

With an instructor.

Jim Gazebo · 16-02-2019 1:38am

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

With an instructor.

You clearly have not been through the system. Extra lessons cost serious money in the end. So I should get my 12 hours lessons and pass test? This is what I did but it is not good. More practice would have benefited me. It is not fair on individuals in this situation...

Charles Babbage · 16-02-2019 2:31am

Jim Gazebo wrote: »

You clearly have not been through the system. Extra lessons cost serious money in the end. So I should get my 12 hours lessons and pass test? This is what I did but it is not good. More practice would have benefited me. It is not fair on individuals in this situation...

Many people have deficiencies in their families, that isn't a basis for compromising road safety.

DaveyDave · 16-02-2019 2:43am

I passed first time in Tallaght. As I mentioned in another thread the only person I know who had an issue with the test was the one who failed four times. I haven't had an issue nor have my close friends or colleagues.

It helps to understand it's a simple box ticking exercise. They want you to do a few manoeuvres and get to each of them in one piece.

I failed my first pretest by not checking my mirror before indicating. After that the next fail was on minor stuff. Third pretest was fine as was the test itself. Whatever I failed on I made sure not to repeat. Process of elimination really.

sameoldname · 16-02-2019 2:45am

Jim Gazebo wrote: »

You clearly have not been through the system. Extra lessons cost serious money in the end. So I should get my 12 hours lessons and pass test? This is what I did but it is not good. More practice would have benefited me. It is not fair on individuals in this situation...

Buying and insuring a car costs serious money too. Far more than extra lessons. If you can afford the car, you can certainly afford the lessons.

I live out in the middle of nowhere and my instructor just picked me up from the end of my driveway for each lesson. Never owned a car before I passed my test. I did about 15 lessons total and passed first time (Naas in case you're wondering). I think what helped me was I was never on the road without an instructor and probably didn't pick up any bad habits as a result.

Problem is, people don't want to wait to start driving. They get their provisional, get a few lessons from their parents (and based on experience, the parent probably can't drive properly either) and then go out on the road and pick up a catastrophic amount of bad habits based on what they see everybody else doing. I pity the instructors who have to beat all they've "learned" back out of them.

tritriagain · 16-02-2019 3:26am

I think people are being hard on the op. Waiting times are ridiculous down the country. My young fella applied in early Jan 2018 and didn't get appt until June. He passed luckily enough but he had said he would take a cancellation. That's 6 months. Crazy. I don't understand why every kid who does transition year in school can't leave it withsufficent training for full license. Proper training at right age , even let them do the test but not on the road before 17.its one of the most important skills they will ever learn.Instead of this bloated system we have.

Shefwedfan · 16-02-2019 9:01am

Jim Gazebo wrote: »

You clearly have not been through the system. Extra lessons cost serious money in the end. So I should get my 12 hours lessons and pass test? This is what I did but it is not good. More practice would have benefited me. It is not fair on individuals in this situation...

You had money to buy the car but not money to do enough lessons so you are safe on the road?

Guy:Incognito · 16-02-2019 9:11am

Jim Gazebo wrote: »

You clearly have not been through the system. Extra lessons cost serious money in the end. So I should get my 12 hours lessons and pass test? This is what I did but it is not good. More practice would have benefited me. It is not fair on individuals in this situation...

Just as well you dont live in a country that actually takes driving seriously.

My mother is German and had to go through their expensive and time consuming system.

People in Ireland really think we're unique for some reason.

Jim Gazebo · 16-02-2019 9:54am

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Just as well you dont live in a country that actually takes driving seriously.

My mother is German and had to go through their expensive and time consuming system.

People in Ireland really think we're unique for some reason.

Just because someone else has an even worse system does not mean ours is fine then.

Jim Gazebo · 16-02-2019 9:56am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

You had money to buy the car but not money to do enough lessons so you are safe on the road?

Come on. I couldn't buy a car for lessons? I had to do them all in the instructors car so I got no practice in between. I couldn't justify the insurance and the lack of time I would have driving having NO ACCOMPANYING DRIVER

Johnnyhpipe · 16-02-2019 10:04am

Fails test, blames the minister..

Shefwedfan · 16-02-2019 10:06am

Jim Gazebo wrote: »

Just because someone else has an even worse system does not mean ours is fine then.

Nothing wrong with our system

People just love to complain and blame someone else

Shefwedfan · 16-02-2019 10:09am

Jim Gazebo wrote: »

Come on. I couldn't buy a car for lessons? I had to do them all in the instructors car so I got no practice in between. I couldn't justify the insurance and the lack of time I would have driving having NO ACCOMPANYING DRIVER

You have a mouth and can talk?

You have neighbours?

I know it’s a crazy idea and more of a 60-70 vibe but talk to your neighbours, offer them a few quid to sit with you while driving around the odd weekend to get experience.....you will find most people are reasonable, some not but majority are and they will help out.....

biko · 16-02-2019 11:15am

sunshine1977 wrote: »

You have a 60% failure rate against you before you even put a foot in the door in Finglas and most of Dublin – 2018 stats.
On the other hand, down the country, where most of the tragedies are happening, you have approx 60% pass rate.

I see you didn't link any of these claimed stats so I went and found them for you
https://www.newstalk.com/news/figures-show-majority-of-driving-test-candidates-are-failing-489140

The figures, released to the Journal.ie, show that the Clifden in Galway had the highest pass rate at 77%.

Meanwhile, Kilrush in County Clare had the lowest pass rate – with 66% of people failing.

Overall, 49% of drivers across the country passed the test in the first ten months of 2018.

languagenerd · 16-02-2019 11:19am

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Jim Gazebo wrote: »

You clearly have not been through the system. Extra lessons cost serious money in the end. So I should get my 12 hours lessons and pass test? This is what I did but it is not good. More practice would have benefited me. It is not fair on individuals in this situation...

Just as well you dont live in a country that actually takes driving seriously.

My mother is German and had to go through their expensive and time consuming system.

People in Ireland really think we're unique for some reason.

Ireland is one of the most learner-friendly countries IMO - some countries don't even have learner permits. In Spain and the Netherlands, for example, there's no such thing as a learner permit: before you pass your test, you can only drive with your instructor in a dual-control car. My Spanish friends were shocked when I was learning and mentioned in passing that my dad accompanied me so I could drive his car to work one day.

The system here isn't perfect but it's necessary. I know it's frustrating when you're learning and need to get from A to B, but ultimately a car is a piece of heavy machinery that can be dangerous if not operated correctly. The idea that you should just be allowed to drive around unsupervised on public roads before you've officially learned to do so is crazy.

Charles Babbage · 16-02-2019 3:41pm

Meanwhile, Kilrush in County Clare had the lowest pass rate – with 66% of people failing.

Overall, 49% of drivers across the country passed the test in the first ten months of 2018

I would be a bit concerned about the difference between these, both in western locations that should be fairly similar. Either the testing or the driving tutition might differ here.

Guy:Incognito · 16-02-2019 7:25pm

Jim Gazebo wrote: »

Just because someone else has an even worse system does not mean ours is fine then.

Having to actually learn how to drive is not a bad system.

Letting people decide on their own when they are ready to drive most definitely is.

MascotDec85 · 17-02-2019 1:27am

I replied to this thread when it was moved over from it’s original location but my response seems to have been lost.

Shane Ross didn’t cost you your test. Neither did tester 1 nor tester 2. You cost yourself the test.
Testers aren’t pre-disposed to failing candidates. They can only mark based on what they see you do, or sometimes, more importantly, what they see you NOT do.
My advice would be to take responsibility for your own actions, prepare for the test again, improving the elements that require work.

In relation to waiting for retest, you don’t need to wait months to resit. Pick up the phone 096 25000 and call for a cancellation. Do this every morning until you get a date. You might get one the first time you call. It might take you a couple of attempts but you will get one. Make sure you’re ready for the test BEFORE you call as you might get one within a matter of days!

Posy · 17-02-2019 3:51pm

Jim Gazebo wrote: »

How do you legally practice learning to drive when you have no family with a full licence?

I have no family members with a full licence. My friends in Dublin don't drive either, and my friends down the country are too far away. There is no point in me spending thousands buying and insuring a car I won't be legally able to drive.
So I'm plodding along doing a couple of lessons a week and feel like I'm getting nowhere. It's frustrating. It's expensive. But I'll just have to keep working away until I'm good enough to sit a test.

I might do a couple of days 'intensive driving' to kick start things a bit, because it is annoying starting each subsequent lesson having made no progress, whereas those with dads/mothers/brothers to drive with are getting out and working on the things they need to practice. Intensive lessons are also very pricey- €500 for two full days.

So that's how I practice learning to drive- it's slow and expensive but I hope that I'll get there eventually, and be a better driver for it.

no.8 · 18-02-2019 1:51am

Jim Gazebo wrote:

I'm disagreeing with you here, it's been done to death, but we hold back our young people too much. The amount of people my age who can't drive, or even move out of home is astonishing. I'm 25!!!

What has moving out of the home got to do with driving (specifically in urban settings)? Driving and learning to drive is not a choice for a number of people

Driving licence - absolute farce of a system and 83,000 waiting

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